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C794
Guest
Recently I was told that in the pre-Vatican 2 era the Church taught that we could not get to God without a priest, this wasn’t including sacraments. Did the Church ever teach this?
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adrift
Guest
In 11 years of Catholic school, I never heard this?
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Used2beSherryG
Guest
There are a million things that non-believers say that the church teaches or taught.Rather than trying to convinvince someone that what they say is not true, ask them where they got the information or if they can site a reference from our doctrines. They will not be able to do so. Hearsay from someone they know hardly qualifies as a reference. Offer to give them a catechism of the Catholic Crhurch so they may know exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.
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Nita
Guest
No, the Church has never taught that we cannot get to God without a priest.
Ask that person to identify the Catholic document that supposedly teaches such a thing. Then you can read what the Church actually says in the document and give that person the correct meaning of the words.
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jonathan_hili
Guest
If that was true, all those poor desert fathers who actually weren’t ordained would have got a bit of a surprise!
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JRKH
Guest
hhmmmmm…May I suggest that there might be a difference between “Church teaching” and what someone was “taught” bu the Church…
Church teaching will be documented somewhere. So as already suggested, ask them for their source and move forward from there.
What someone might have been “taught by the Church” is another matter. Sometimes priests, other religious teachers, parents etc will teach things that do not precisely reflect official teachings. This can be particularly true for parents who will tend to pass on what they learned from their parents and so forth…
Often times this happens because the teacher did not express something well, or the child being taught did not hear it right.
For example:
If a religion teacher, perhaps preparing children for first confession, tells them that God comes to us through a priest, and that we go to God through the priest and that in confession the priest is required…A child might get the wrong impression and (depending on their further spiritual development) carry this immature understanding with them…sharing it with others as something that “Sister taught us that…”
So - it could very well be that the person who made the statement has SOME basis to say that it was “taught by the Church”.
Pursue the conversation gently with the person to see just where the information came from. And perhaps share with them how sometimes people can get the wrong impression or idea about what the Church actually teaches.
Peace
James
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Texsain
Guest
This sounds like a distortion of the teaching that the priests do bring Christ to us. Probably conceived by someone who flunked logic 101. Eg. “The priests bring Christ to us, therefore, we can’t got to Jesus without the priests” But that does not follow. In logical terms, a “non sequitur”
Consider this: many confraternities (groups of lay people doing holy works) were formed during the middle ages when the laity wanted to get together to perform acts of devotion when it was not possible for a priest to come say Mass every week. Such organizations are incompatible with the alleged teaching you described.
Consider this: many confraternities (groups of lay people doing holy works) were formed during the middle ages when the laity wanted to get together to perform acts of devotion when it was not possible for a priest to come say Mass every week. Such organizations are incompatible with the alleged teaching you described.
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Ignatius
Guest
No.
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mab23
Guest
did you ask for a source?
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C794
Guest
Thanks for the responses.
Ya, it was the person’s experience being raised as a Catholic.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Aye yie yie.
The Church teaches (and has always taught) that Christian Baptism is the ordinary gateway to salvation. The ordinary minster of Christian Baptism is an ordained Catholic minister (deacon, priest, or Bishop), but the extraordinary (ie, not ordinary) minister of Christian Baptism could be ANYBODY who is capable of valid intent (ie, s/he intends to confer Christian Baptism). This would exclude only young children and people suffering from some mental disorders. A Muslim (with proper intent) could confer Christian Baptism. Same for a Jew, Hindu, or whatever. Woman or man - does not matter. As long as the person has valid intent, and uses water and the Trinitarian form, it is a valid Christian Baptism.
The recipient of Christian Baptism is immediately placed in a state of Grace. This person could forfeit this state if s/he fell into mortal sin. There has always been debate about whether this is easy or difficult to do. The Church has no teaching one way or another.
If it is easy to fall into mortal sin, then you need a priest (or Bishop) to restore you to a state of Grace through Confession (or perhaps by Unction). No protestant or Jew or Muslim can do this. A Baptized Christian who falls into a state of mortal sin absolutely needs the services of a Catholic (including Orthodox, etc) priest or Bishop. Otherwise, s/he has no recourse to hell.
But if it is difficult for a person of good will to fall into a state of mortal sin then Christian Baptism likely assures ultimate salvation. This does not require the services of any priest (or any Christian, for that matter).
So the question is really, is it difficult or easy for a Baptized Christian of good will to fall into a state of mortal sin? The Church has never taught one way or another, so the Church has never taught the question you asked.
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JRKH
Guest
Ah - As I suspected…
Now it is just a matter of gently informing your friend that, “there seems to have been some miscommunication somewhere”, and that you have done some research and have been unable to find such an official teaching anywhere.
The attitude now should not be that your friend is “wrong” but was apparently misinformed (probably unintentionally).
Peace
James
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