Did the Church really set Western society back hundreds of years?

[Hubertus]

I saw in a thread on here someone mentioned Occam’s Razor. So I went and looked it up, and found that the great thinker who invented it was, yet again, a Catholic, and a 14th century Franciscan Friar at that. That gave me the idea for this thread.

Atheists love to proclaim that the Medieval Church set Western society back hundreds of years, and that if it weren’t for the Church we would be flying around in hover cars and such. I’ve seen it all over the place, and even in acquaintances that I’ve talked to. They claim we did all kinds of book burnings and persecution of free thinkers (like Galileo).

It seems very silly to me to say such a thing, when it was the Church who produced the university, and the scientific method, and many great thinkers and clergymen such as this William of Ockham, and Nicolaus Copernicus, and Roger Bacon, and Gregor Mendel, etc. etc.

So how many of these claims have any footing to stand on? Did the Church fight for or against knowledge and scientific thought?

 

[Carlan]

I saw in a thread on here someone mentioned Occam’s Razor. So I went and looked it up, and found that the great thinker who invented it was, yet again, a Catholic, and a 14th century Franciscan Friar at that. That gave me the idea for this thread.

Atheists love to proclaim that the Medieval Church set Western society back hundreds of years, and that if it weren’t for the Church we would be flying around in hover cars and such. I’ve seen it all over the place, and even in acquaintances that I’ve talked to. They claim we did all kinds of book burnings and persecution of free thinkers (like Galileo).

It seems very silly to me to say such a thing, when it was the Church who produced the university, and the scientific method, and many great thinkers and clergymen such as this William of Ockham, and Nicolaus Copernicus, and Roger Bacon, and Gregor Mendel, etc. etc.

So how many of these claims have any footing to stand on? Did the Church fight for or against knowledge and scientific thought?

A very good recent book, How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization , would be an easy read to recommend. Author Thomas E.Woods. Ph.D.
Peace, Carlan

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

I don’t think Western civilization would be anything like it is today without the Church. Anyone who says otherwise, is either ignorant of history or closing their mind to it. The monasteries kept a pilot light of order during the period after the fall of the Roman Empire, when the barbarian tribes were rampaging around Europe. I dare people to look at Gothic cathedrals, which were built in a time before we had the kind of heavy-duty construction equipment we’ve got now, and dare to call the 1200s a time of technological stagnation. These were to cities of that time what skyscrapers were to cities in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

 

[sedonaman]

There has been a lot of anti-Catholic propaganda going around for the last 400 or so years. Unfortunately, much of it survives to this day.

You might find these interesting:

Catholicism and Science
catholicleague.org/catholicism-and-science/

Galileo and the Catholic Church
catholicleague.org/galileo-and-the-catholic-church/

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I saw in a thread on here someone mentioned Occam’s Razor. So I went and looked it up, and found that the great thinker who invented it was, yet again, a Catholic, and a 14th century Franciscan Friar at that. That gave me the idea for this thread.

Atheists love to proclaim that the Medieval Church set Western society back hundreds of years, and that if it weren’t for the Church we would be flying around in hover cars and such. I’ve seen it all over the place, and even in acquaintances that I’ve talked to. They claim we did all kinds of book burnings and persecution of free thinkers (like Galileo).

It seems very silly to me to say such a thing, when it was the Church who produced the university, and the scientific method, and many great thinkers and clergymen such as this William of Ockham, and Nicolaus Copernicus, and Roger Bacon, and Gregor Mendel, etc. etc.

So how many of these claims have any footing to stand on? Did the Church fight for or against knowledge and scientific thought?

Matrix said it already but the fellow who said that the Church set backwards western civilization is a zero in history.

Up to 313, we had greco-roman gods and Christianity was persecuted. Now in 313, Constantin gave freedom to the Christians. Europe became Christian in 100 years. But in the V century, the barbarians started invading Europe, tribe after tribe for hundreds of years. So, the Church had 100 years of freedom.

Now, who kept the writing of the past were the monks who painstakingly copied over and over all the past culture otherwise we would have Nothing. Is this to set back western culture? The barbarians destroyed the Ancient Culture and this period is called Dark Ages, which some dark minds confuse with the Middle Ages.

It was the monks, above all the Benedictins and Cesterciens who educated the barbarians who were the aristocrats who ruled the land. They taught them to transform the swords into plows and taught them agriculture of which they knew nothing for they were nomads. Is this setting the western culture backwards?

Now for that guy, it seems that history begins in the Middle Ages and ate what the common dark minds say: that the Middle Ages were the Dark Ages. Boy, they were very polite the Middle Age Aristocrats compared with their great-grandfathers who killed a deer, cut some meat, put in the horse, mounted the horse on top of the meat and when the meat was tender, they would eat it raw. The Chief of the Huns, Attila, was so feared that the myth went that the grass would not grow again on the spots his horse stepped in.

So, when we see the Middle Age aristocratic with their violent behavior, those who are ignorant, think that they are rude Catholics, those who have a little culture know that they were transformed from barbarians to civilized people.

That is a common slogan: Catholic is different from culture. You find 1000 arguments against and the bad willing people will find 1001 irrational arguments…

 

[Tenofovir]

You see before the Catholic Church came along somewhere in 1000 of so AD, there was an advanced civilisation throughout Europe. These people were descendents of the survivors of Atlantis and they could harvest solar power for green energy, they had advanced medicine and they were peaceful. Everyone had a iPhone. Everyone was a hipster. Starbucks was sold everyone and for cheap. Then wham came the CC and brought the Dark Ages on everyone. Ancient Cathedrals started to rot. Universities had to close down. Museums filled with art became vacant. Oil shortages occurred as the Templars cut off Saudi oil supplies. Everyone forgot not only how to use the iPhone, as the Vatican started to regulate the previously free 10G wireless networks, but people even forgot how to read and write.

(Obviously the above is a satirical take on this false idea that Christianity pushed back human technological and artistic advancement by n years. Christianity in fact did the opposite.)

 

[nickybr38]

You see before the Catholic Church came along somewhere in 1000 of so AD, there was an advanced civilisation throughout Europe. These people were descendents of the survivors of Atlantis and they could harvest solar power for green energy, they had advanced medicine and they were peaceful. Everyone had a iPhone. Everyone was a hipster. Starbucks was sold everyone and for cheap. Then wham came the CC and brought the Dark Ages on everyone. Ancient Cathedrals started to rot. Universities had to close down. Museums filled with art became vacant. Oil shortages occurred as the Templars cut off Saudi oil supplies. Everyone forgot not only how to use the iPhone, as the Vatican started to regulate the previously free 10G wireless networks, but people even forgot how to read and write.

(Obviously the above is a satirical take on this false idea that Christianity pushed back human technological and artistic advancement by n years. Christianity in fact did the opposite.)

How could the Church have set Western society back when it was the Church that gave us the first places where one could study (IE: universities)?

Really, people who make these kind of claims just make me groan.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Well, we have had Islam for 1400 years. and Communism since the French Revolution; and since 1917 in Russia.

You could look up how long we have had Hinduism, Shinto-ism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Wicca, Pantheism, Animism, and all that Aztec and Inca stuff, and a host of other “systems”, mostly local … religion as practiced by “Native Americans” for 8000 years or the Egyptians for 4000 or so years.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

How many of those have flying cars?

A lot of them didn’t even have the wheel.

Shoot, the Communists in China and Russia were spying on us and stealing OUR stuff. [still are!]

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I don’t think Western civilization would be anything like it is today without the Church. Anyone who says otherwise, is either ignorant of history or closing their mind to it. The monasteries kept a pilot light of order during the period after the fall of the Roman Empire, when the barbarian tribes were rampaging around Europe. I dare people to look at Gothic cathedrals, which were built in a time before we had the kind of heavy-duty construction equipment we’ve got now, and dare to call the 1200s a time of technological stagnation. These were to cities of that time what skyscrapers were to cities in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

One of the major “commercial” benefits from Judaism and Christianity was the concept of TRUST.

Before that or outside of that, the only people you could trust was family.

With Judaism and Christianity, you had The Ten Commandments … including, “Thou Shalt Not Steal” … and “Thou Shalt Not Covet” … all of a sudden, you could trust other people. Honesty entered into society. There suddenly was a commercial code you could believe in.

 

[martininthefiel]

It didn’t, but the fall of Rome certainly did. That was at the hand of non-Christian tribes. The Church preserved the knowledge of classical antiquity.

 

[iloveangels]

I saw in a thread on here someone mentioned Occam’s Razor. So I went and looked it up, and found that the great thinker who invented it was, yet again, a Catholic, and a 14th century Franciscan Friar at that. That gave me the idea for this thread.

Atheists love to proclaim that the Medieval Church set Western society back hundreds of years, and that if it weren’t for the Church we would be flying around in hover cars and such. I’ve seen it all over the place, and even in acquaintances that I’ve talked to. They claim we did all kinds of book burnings and persecution of free thinkers (like Galileo).

It seems very silly to me to say such a thing, when it was the Church who produced the university, and the scientific method, and many great thinkers and clergymen such as this William of Ockham, and Nicolaus Copernicus, and Roger Bacon, and Gregor Mendel, etc. etc.

So how many of these claims have any footing to stand on? Did the Church fight for or against knowledge and scientific thought?

Of course not. Many people are completely ignorant when it comes to history.

 

[sedonaman]

You see before the Catholic Church came along somewhere in 1000 of so AD, there was an advanced civilisation throughout Europe. These people were descendents of the survivors of Atlantis and they could harvest solar power for green energy, they had advanced medicine and they were peaceful. Everyone had a iPhone. Everyone was a hipster. Starbucks was sold everyone and for cheap. Then wham came the CC and brought the Dark Ages on everyone. Ancient Cathedrals started to rot. Universities had to close down. Museums filled with art became vacant. Oil shortages occurred as the Templars cut off Saudi oil supplies. Everyone forgot not only how to use the iPhone, as the Vatican started to regulate the previously free 10G wireless networks, but people even forgot how to read and write.
…

Would you be Max Schulman by any chance?

 

[nickybr38]

How would you guys respond to someone who says the Church held Western Society back (and caused the dark ages) and Islam is responsible for the enlightenment?

 

[promethius]

I saw in a thread on here someone mentioned Occam’s Razor. So I went and looked it up, and found that the great thinker who invented it was, yet again, a Catholic, and a 14th century Franciscan Friar at that. That gave me the idea for this thread.

Atheists love to proclaim that the Medieval Church set Western society back hundreds of years, and that if it weren’t for the Church we would be flying around in hover cars and such. I’ve seen it all over the place, and even in acquaintances that I’ve talked to. They claim we did all kinds of book burnings and persecution of free thinkers (like Galileo).

It seems very silly to me to say such a thing, when it was the Church who produced the university, and the scientific method, and many great thinkers and clergymen such as this William of Ockham, and Nicolaus Copernicus, and Roger Bacon, and Gregor Mendel, etc. etc.

So how many of these claims have any footing to stand on? Did the Church fight for or against knowledge and scientific thought?

yes, because the lack of Christianity as a moving force sure helped the Middle East, Japan, China, and Africa to get to the pinnacle of Technological Genius that they are today… (that was sarcasm).

Realistically speaking, the pagan barbarians destroyed (and, in the present form of extremist organizations continue to destroy) civilization left and right, and it is the influence of the church which is the reason that the west lifted the NON-Christian world out of the middle ages and into the industrial and information age.

 

[Tenofovir]

Would you be Max Schulman by any chance?

Thank you for your compliments.

 

[sedonaman]

How would you guys respond to someone who says the Church held Western Society back (and caused the dark ages) and Islam is responsible for the enlightenment?

I would ask him if he calls this “The Enlightenment”:
633 – Mesopotamia falls to Muslim invasion, followed by the entire Persian Empire
635 – Damascus falls
638 – Jerusalem capitulates
643 – Alexandria falls, ending 1,000 years of Hellenic civilization
648-49 – Cyprus falls
653 – Rhodes falls
673 – Constantinople attacked
698 – All of North Africa lost
711 – Spain invaded
717 – Muslims attack Constantinople again; repelled by Emperor Leo the Isaurian
721 – Saragossa falls, Muslims sights on southern France
720 – Narbonne falls.
732 – Bordeaux was stormed and its churches burnt down
732 – Charles Martel and his Frankish army defeat Muslims, turning back the Muslim tide
732 – Attacks on France continued
734 – Avignon captured by an Muslim force
743 – Lyons sacked
759 – Arabs driven out of Narbonne.
838 – Marseilles plundered
800 – Muslims incursions into Italy begin, Islands of Ponza and Ischia plundered
813 – Civitavecchia, the port of Rome sacked
826 – Crete falls to Muslim forces
827 – Muslim forces begin to attack Sicily.
837 – Naples repels a Muslim attack
838 – Marseilles taken
840 – Bari falls
842 – Messina captured and Strait of Messina controlled
846 – Muslims squadrons arrived at Ostia, at the Tiber’s mouth, sack Rome and St. Peter’s Basilica
846 – Taranto in Apulia conquered by Muslim forces
849 – Papal forces repel Muslim fleet at the mouth of the Tiber
853 – 871 – Italian coast from Bari down to Reggio Calabria controlled, Muslims terrorize Southern Italy.
859 – Muslims take control of all Messina
870 – Malta captured by the Muslims.
870 – Bari recaptured from the Muslims by Emperor Louis II
872 – Emperor Louis II defeats a Saracen fleet off Capua
872 – Muslim forces devastate Calabria
878 – Syracuse falls after a nine-month siege
879 – Pope John VIII forced to pay tribute of 25,000 mancuses (AUD$625,000) annually to the Muslims
880 – Byzantine Commanders gain victory over Saracen forces at Naples
881 – Muslims capture fortress near Anzio, plunder surrounding countryside with impunity for forty [40] years.
887 – Muslim armies take Hysela and Amasia, in Asia Minor.
889 – Toulon captured
902 – Muslim fleets sacked and destroyed Demetrias in Thessaly, Central Greece,
904 – Thessalonica falls to Muslim forces
915 – After three months of blockade, Christian forces victorious against Saracens holed-up in their fortresses north of Naples
921 – English pilgrims to Rome crushed to death under rocks rolled down on them by Saracens in the passes of the Alps
934 – Genoa attacked by Muslim forces
935 – Genoa taken
972 – Saracens finally driven from Faxineto
976 – Caliphs of Egypt send fresh Muslim expeditions into southern Italy. Initially the German Emperor Otho II , who had set up his headquarters in Rome, successfully defeated these Saracen forces
977 – Sergius, Archbishop of Damascus, expelled from his See by Muslims
982 – Emperor Otho’s forces ambushed and his army defeated
1003 – Muslims from Spain sack Antibes
1003-09 – Marauding bands of Saracens plunder Italian coast from Pisa to Rome from bases on Sardinia
1005 – Muslims from Spain sack Pisa
1009 – Caliph of Egypt orders destruction of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, the Tomb of Jesus
1010 – Saracens seize Cosenza in southern Italy.
1015 – All Sardinia falls
1016 – Muslims from Spain again sack Pisa
1017 – Fleets of Pisa and Genoa sail for Sardinia, find Saracens crucifying Christians, drive Saracen leader out. Saracens try to re-take Sardinia until 1050
1020 – Muslims from Spain sack Narbonne
1095 – The First Crusade.

There were 463 years between Mohammed’s death in 632 AD and the calling of a Crusade to free lands that had been Christian before the Muslim invaders arrived; but to hear what passes for common “knowledge” [from self-hating Christians at that!], the whole affair was solely the fault of power-hungry popes, greedy soldiers of fortune, and Christians who were persecuting harmless, pious Muslims minding their own business. Muslims are only too happy to help Christians perpetuate this mea maxima culpa attitude.

 

[nickybr38]

I would ask him if he calls this “The Enlightenment”:
633 – Mesopotamia falls to Muslim invasion, followed by the entire Persian Empire
635 – Damascus falls
638 – Jerusalem capitulates
643 – Alexandria falls, ending 1,000 years of Hellenic civilization
648-49 – Cyprus falls
653 – Rhodes falls
673 – Constantinople attacked
698 – All of North Africa lost
711 – Spain invaded
717 – Muslims attack Constantinople again; repelled by Emperor Leo the Isaurian
721 – Saragossa falls, Muslims sights on southern France
720 – Narbonne falls.
732 – Bordeaux was stormed and its churches burnt down
732 – Charles Martel and his Frankish army defeat Muslims, turning back the Muslim tide
732 – Attacks on France continued
734 – Avignon captured by an Muslim force
743 – Lyons sacked
759 – Arabs driven out of Narbonne.
838 – Marseilles plundered
800 – Muslims incursions into Italy begin, Islands of Ponza and Ischia plundered
813 – Civitavecchia, the port of Rome sacked
826 – Crete falls to Muslim forces
827 – Muslim forces begin to attack Sicily.
837 – Naples repels a Muslim attack
838 – Marseilles taken
840 – Bari falls
842 – Messina captured and Strait of Messina controlled
846 – Muslims squadrons arrived at Ostia, at the Tiber’s mouth, sack Rome and St. Peter’s Basilica
846 – Taranto in Apulia conquered by Muslim forces
849 – Papal forces repel Muslim fleet at the mouth of the Tiber
853 – 871 – Italian coast from Bari down to Reggio Calabria controlled, Muslims terrorize Southern Italy.
859 – Muslims take control of all Messina
870 – Malta captured by the Muslims.
870 – Bari recaptured from the Muslims by Emperor Louis II
872 – Emperor Louis II defeats a Saracen fleet off Capua
872 – Muslim forces devastate Calabria
878 – Syracuse falls after a nine-month siege
879 – Pope John VIII forced to pay tribute of 25,000 mancuses (AUD$625,000) annually to the Muslims
880 – Byzantine Commanders gain victory over Saracen forces at Naples
881 – Muslims capture fortress near Anzio, plunder surrounding countryside with impunity for forty [40] years.
887 – Muslim armies take Hysela and Amasia, in Asia Minor.
889 – Toulon captured
902 – Muslim fleets sacked and destroyed Demetrias in Thessaly, Central Greece,
904 – Thessalonica falls to Muslim forces
915 – After three months of blockade, Christian forces victorious against Saracens holed-up in their fortresses north of Naples
921 – English pilgrims to Rome crushed to death under rocks rolled down on them by Saracens in the passes of the Alps
934 – Genoa attacked by Muslim forces
935 – Genoa taken
972 – Saracens finally driven from Faxineto
976 – Caliphs of Egypt send fresh Muslim expeditions into southern Italy. Initially the German Emperor Otho II , who had set up his headquarters in Rome, successfully defeated these Saracen forces
977 – Sergius, Archbishop of Damascus, expelled from his See by Muslims
982 – Emperor Otho’s forces ambushed and his army defeated
1003 – Muslims from Spain sack Antibes
1003-09 – Marauding bands of Saracens plunder Italian coast from Pisa to Rome from bases on Sardinia
1005 – Muslims from Spain sack Pisa
1009 – Caliph of Egypt orders destruction of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, the Tomb of Jesus
1010 – Saracens seize Cosenza in southern Italy.
1015 – All Sardinia falls
1016 – Muslims from Spain again sack Pisa
1017 – Fleets of Pisa and Genoa sail for Sardinia, find Saracens crucifying Christians, drive Saracen leader out. Saracens try to re-take Sardinia until 1050
1020 – Muslims from Spain sack Narbonne
1095 – The First Crusade.

There were 463 years between Mohammed’s death in 632 AD and the calling of a Crusade to free lands that had been Christian before the Muslim invaders arrived; but to hear what passes for common “knowledge” [from self-hating Christians at that!], the whole affair was solely the fault of power-hungry popes, greedy soldiers of fortune, and Christians who were persecuting harmless, pious Muslims minding their own business. Muslims are only too happy to help Christians perpetuate this mea maxima culpa attitude.

And this list is why I asked CAF. You guys are fantastic. As usual. This list makes me want to crack open a history book (something I do rarely). Here I go!

 

[hank3fan]

EWTN has a lecture series on how the Church built up coivilization, especially in the area of science. The talks are delivered by Tom Woods, who was mentioned earlier, and they are fantastic, because they demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that the Church made massive contributions to science and learning. They also completely destroy the myth that we were all ignorant fools beofe the alleged Enlightenment. And best of all, they are available on Youtube at EWTN’s channel.

 

[hank3fan]

Here’s a link that should take you to all of the lectures in question:

youtube.com/watch?v=m5siHd1P5zk&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=SP57857981F3CC5D78

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I would ask him if he calls this “The Enlightenment”:
633 – Mesopotamia falls to Muslim invasion, followed by the entire Persian Empire
635 – Damascus falls
638 – Jerusalem capitulates
643 – Alexandria falls, ending 1,000 years of Hellenic civilization
648-49 – Cyprus falls
653 – Rhodes falls
673 – Constantinople attacked
698 – All of North Africa lost
711 – Spain invaded
717 – Muslims attack Constantinople again; repelled by Emperor Leo the Isaurian
721 – Saragossa falls, Muslims sights on southern France
720 – Narbonne falls.
732 – Bordeaux was stormed and its churches burnt down
732 – Charles Martel and his Frankish army defeat Muslims, turning back the Muslim tide
732 – Attacks on France continued
734 – Avignon captured by an Muslim force
743 – Lyons sacked
759 – Arabs driven out of Narbonne.
838 – Marseilles plundered
800 – Muslims incursions into Italy begin, Islands of Ponza and Ischia plundered
813 – Civitavecchia, the port of Rome sacked
826 – Crete falls to Muslim forces
827 – Muslim forces begin to attack Sicily.
837 – Naples repels a Muslim attack
838 – Marseilles taken
840 – Bari falls
842 – Messina captured and Strait of Messina controlled
846 – Muslims squadrons arrived at Ostia, at the Tiber’s mouth, sack Rome and St. Peter’s Basilica
846 – Taranto in Apulia conquered by Muslim forces
849 – Papal forces repel Muslim fleet at the mouth of the Tiber
853 – 871 – Italian coast from Bari down to Reggio Calabria controlled, Muslims terrorize Southern Italy.
859 – Muslims take control of all Messina
870 – Malta captured by the Muslims.
870 – Bari recaptured from the Muslims by Emperor Louis II
872 – Emperor Louis II defeats a Saracen fleet off Capua
872 – Muslim forces devastate Calabria
878 – Syracuse falls after a nine-month siege
879 – Pope John VIII forced to pay tribute of 25,000 mancuses (AUD$625,000) annually to the Muslims
880 – Byzantine Commanders gain victory over Saracen forces at Naples
881 – Muslims capture fortress near Anzio, plunder surrounding countryside with impunity for forty [40] years.
887 – Muslim armies take Hysela and Amasia, in Asia Minor.
889 – Toulon captured
902 – Muslim fleets sacked and destroyed Demetrias in Thessaly, Central Greece,
904 – Thessalonica falls to Muslim forces
915 – After three months of blockade, Christian forces victorious against Saracens holed-up in their fortresses north of Naples
921 – English pilgrims to Rome crushed to death under rocks rolled down on them by Saracens in the passes of the Alps
934 – Genoa attacked by Muslim forces
935 – Genoa taken
972 – Saracens finally driven from Faxineto
976 – Caliphs of Egypt send fresh Muslim expeditions into southern Italy. Initially the German Emperor Otho II , who had set up his headquarters in Rome, successfully defeated these Saracen forces
977 – Sergius, Archbishop of Damascus, expelled from his See by Muslims
982 – Emperor Otho’s forces ambushed and his army defeated
1003 – Muslims from Spain sack Antibes
1003-09 – Marauding bands of Saracens plunder Italian coast from Pisa to Rome from bases on Sardinia
1005 – Muslims from Spain sack Pisa
1009 – Caliph of Egypt orders destruction of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, the Tomb of Jesus
1010 – Saracens seize Cosenza in southern Italy.
1015 – All Sardinia falls
1016 – Muslims from Spain again sack Pisa
1017 – Fleets of Pisa and Genoa sail for Sardinia, find Saracens crucifying Christians, drive Saracen leader out. Saracens try to re-take Sardinia until 1050
1020 – Muslims from Spain sack Narbonne
1095 – The First Crusade.

There were 463 years between Mohammed’s death in 632 AD and the calling of a Crusade to free lands that had been Christian before the Muslim invaders arrived; but to hear what passes for common “knowledge” [from self-hating Christians at that!], the whole affair was solely the fault of power-hungry popes, greedy soldiers of fortune, and Christians who were persecuting harmless, pious Muslims minding their own business. Muslims are only too happy to help Christians perpetuate this mea maxima culpa attitude.

This list is wonderful … and one reason for posting now is so that I can come back to it.

Keep in mind that the list stops in 1095.

But you can keep the list going …

In 1492, the Moors were expelled from Spain after an occupation of almost 800 years. And what then began were the romantic Corsairs … seizing Christian men and women from coastal towns and from ships on the Mediterranean … and using them as slaves.

That went on until the early 1800’s … more than 300 years.

Finally, the Europeans had had enough and people like Lord Admiral Nelson sailed in and shelled Tripoli and other places. And eventually … around 1825 … you need to look it up, the only way the Europeans had to stop the piracy was to occupy North Africa … The Spanish and French occupied what is now Morocco, the French occupied what is now Algeria and Tunisia; the Italians went into Libya; and the English into Egypt; etc.

AND, even the isolationist AMERICANS got into the act … read up on “Jefferson’s War” … in 1805 …

Apart from burning the fabulous library at Alexandria, not much to brag about has come out of any of those Muslim advances. Actually, I think they just burned it for a second time.

You can also add in there the Battle of Lepanto and the Battle of Vienna, where two major invasion attempts by Muslims were thwarted