Did the council of trent condem St. Augustine's writings against pelagius?

[6glargento]

i was having a debate with a protestant over whether or not st. augustine taught sola fide or calvinism, i showed him some quotes from Augustine which contradict protestant theology, he retorted with this:

The council of Trent practically condemned all of Augustine’s writings against Pelagius.

thus suggesting that roman catholicism is “semi-pelagian.” Is there any evidence of the council of trent condeming augustine’s writings against pelagius?

 

[Angainor]

So it seems.

 

[Contarini]

i was having a debate with a protestant over whether or not st. augustine taught sola fide or calvinism, i showed him some quotes from Augustine which contradict protestant theology, he retorted with this:

thus suggesting that roman catholicism is “semi-pelagian.” Is there any evidence of the council of trent condeming augustine’s writings against pelagius?

Notice that he said “practically.” He knows that Trent didn’t actually condemn St. Augustine (in fact Trent didn’t condemn anyone by name), but he thinks that the anathemas of Trent apply to St. Augustine’s anti-Pelagian writings. I can’t see a basis for this myself, but it’s a common opinion among Calvinists. You need to get him to be specific about the condemnations he is referring to.

Edwin

 

[Angainor]

You need to get him to be specific about the condemnations he is referring to.

How about:

CANON IX.—If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Augustine—The righteousness of the Law, namely, that he who has fulfilled it shall live in it, is set forth for this reason that when any one has recognized his infirmity he may attain and work the same and live in it, conciliating the Justifier not by his own strength nor by the letter of the Law itself (which cannot be done), but by faith. Except in a justified man, there is no right work wherein he who does it may live. But justification is obtained by faith.
Of the Spirit and Letter

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Notice that he said “practically.” He knows that Trent didn’t actually condemn St. Augustine (in fact Trent didn’t condemn anyone by name), but he thinks that the anathemas of Trent apply to St. Augustine’s anti-Pelagian writings. I can’t see a basis for this myself, but it’s a common opinion among Calvinists. You need to get him to be specific about the condemnations he is referring to.

Edwin

Reading the original post in that light of yours, I think one could rephrase the assertion as: “For all practical purposes, the teaching of Trent amounts to a condemnation of that of Augustine, in certain respects.”​

Maybe Calvin’s Antidote [to the Council of Trent] would clarify this - Calvinists often have very odd ideas about Catholic theology, but they do seem to know their own authors: &, like any other group, they tend to see theologies they don’t hold through the filter provided by their own authors.

lgmarshall.org/Calvin/calvin_trentantidote.html

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

See also - socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/02/1-corinthians-39-and-john-calvins.html

 

[Contarini]

How about:

CANON IX.—If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Augustine—The righteousness of the Law, namely, that he who has fulfilled it shall live in it, is set forth for this reason that when any one has recognized his infirmity he may attain and work the same and live in it, conciliating the Justifier not by his own strength nor by the letter of the Law itself (which cannot be done), but by faith. Except in a justified man, there is no right work wherein he who does it may live. But justification is obtained by faith.
Of the Spirit and Letter

The Augustine text does not say that a person does not need to be prepared for justification by the movement of his own will, and the text from Trent does not say that a person who is not yet a believer can do right works and so live. The texts are not contradictory.

However, it’s certainly true that Catholics tended to interpret texts such as the above in the light of other texts from Augustine, such as “God created you without you *, but He will not save you without you.” In some cases that meant interpretating later writings in the light of earlier ones, so that Protestants could use the internal chronology of Augustine’s writings as an argument for their interpretation.

Edwin*

 

[tdgesq]

How about:

CANON IX.—If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Augustine—The righteousness of the Law, namely, that he who has fulfilled it shall live in it, is set forth for this reason that when any one has recognized his infirmity he may attain and work the same and live in it, conciliating the Justifier not by his own strength nor by the letter of the Law itself (which cannot be done), but by faith. Except in a justified man, there is no right work wherein he who does it may live. But justification is obtained by faith.
Of the Spirit and Letter

You are going to have to point out how these two statements are incompatible. I don’t see it.

 

[Angainor]

The Augustine text does not say that a person does not need to be prepared for justification by the movement of his own will.

So, a person is not justified until he moves his own will in preparation for justification?

That is justification by “will movement”. A work.
If natural ability, through the free will, suffice both for learning to know how one ought to live and for living aright, then Christ has died in vain, then the offense of the Cross is made void.
De Natura et Gratia

 

[Contarini]

So, a person is not justified until he moves his own will in preparation for justification?

That is justification by “will movement”. A work.If natural ability, through the free will, suffice both for learning to know how one ought to live and for living aright, then Christ has died in vain, then the offense of the Cross is made void.
De Natura et Gratia

A sine qua non condition is not the same thing as a sole or primary cause. In other words, saying that a person is not justified without something does not mean that he is justified by that thing. The Augustine quote above says that free will does not suffice, not that it is not necessary. Augustine would say that no one comes to Christ without the movement of the will, but that the will only chooses to delight in Christ when it is moved to do so by God’s grace.

Can Lutherans really say anything else? I take the point that you don’t think the will can move toward God before it believes, but faith is itself a movement of the will. The only alternative is to adopt the Calvinist view that regeneration logically precedes faith.

Edwin

 

[tdgesq]

You are going to have to point out how these two statements are incompatible. I don’t see it.

 

[Angainor]

The Augustine text does not say that a person does not need to be prepared for justification by the movement of his own will

Augustine would say that no one comes to Christ without the movement of the will, but that the will only chooses to delight in Christ when it is moved to do so by God’s grace.

Your position seems to be evolving. “By the movement of his own will” sure sounds like the person is moving his own will; unaided.

Can Lutherans really say anything else? I take the point that you don’t think the will can move toward God before it believes, but faith is itself a movement of the will. The only alternative is to adopt the Calvinist view that regeneration logically precedes faith.

You seem to be adopting that alternative as well.

The logical progression is a person is unregenerated → grace then moves the person to choose to delight in Christ.

Grace enters when the person is yet unregenerated.

Yes regeneration logically precedes faith. “While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” “It is the sick who are in need of a physician.”

The difference between a Lutheran and Calvinist is that a Lutheran says God came to save the whole world. Faith comes by the Holy Spirit through hearing the word and anyone can come to faith by hearing the word.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

You are going to have to point out how these two statements are incompatible. I don’t see it.

Pelagius’s heresy was to say that the average bloke is born without original sin and does a lot of good, so we don’t need all this baptism superstitious nonsense.
Calvin’s was to say that the average bloke is damned from the start, but a few chaps like me are saved by grace, and we don’t need to bother with good works which can never merit salvation.

The errors are opposite and in condemning the one Augustine may have verged on the other.However basically Augustine was a sound theologian.

 

[tdgesq]

The errors are opposite and in condemning the one Augustine may have verged on the other.However basically Augustine was a sound theologian.

Yes, I know what Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism are. And I understand that Augustine was combating this heresy in his time. What I don’t understand is how the previous poster finds Canon IX on Justification from the Council of Trent to be incompatible with the quoted excerpt from Augustine.

 

[Angainor]

Yes, I know what Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism are. And I understand that Augustine was combating this heresy in his time. What I don’t understand is how the previous poster finds Canon IX on Justification from the Council of Trent to be incompatible with the quoted excerpt from Augustine.

CANON IX.—If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
Augustine indeed appears to be saying that nothing else is required. Augustine—Except in a justified man, there is no right work wherein he who does it may live. But justification is obtained by faith.
Justification is obtained by faith, without taking into consideration “right work”. The person has obtained it. He has it.

 

[tdgesq]

Augustine indeed appears to be saying that nothing else is required.

Augustine—Except in a justified man, there is no right work wherein he who does it may live. But justification is obtained by faith.
Justification is obtained by faith, without taking into consideration “right work”. The person has obtained it. He has it.

Faith is still an act that requires assent of the will. Do you disagree?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

How about:

CANON IX.—If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Augustine—The righteousness of the Law, namely, that he who has fulfilled it shall live in it, is set forth for this reason that when any one has recognized his infirmity he may attain and work the same and live in it, conciliating the Justifier not by his own strength nor by the letter of the Law itself (which cannot be done), but by faith. Except in a justified man, there is no right work wherein he who does it may live. But justification is obtained by faith.
Of the Spirit and Letter

I don’t see where Saint Augustine is saying that we are justified by faith alone. He states we are justified by faith, which is what Saint Paul says, but they both agree that faith is not alone.

Of course, Saint Augustine’s works - like those of Saint Paul - are very easily manipulated and distorted by Protestants to suit their doctrines.

 

[Angainor]

Augustine:

Except in a justified man, there is no right work wherein he who does it may live. But justification is obtained by faith.

I don’t see where Saint Augustine is saying that we are justified by faith alone. He states we are justified by faith, which is what Saint Paul says, but they both agree that faith is not alone.

No, he didn’t say “alone”. If he thought that someone interpret “justification is obtained by faith” and “there is no right work wherein he who does it may live” as “justification is obtained by faith and …” he might have.

What possible “and …” could fit into the Augustine quote?

 

[tdgesq]

A good point, but not what the poster is arguing I think. Instead he seems to be asserting that with respect to the initial justification of faith, Augustine denied any freedom on the part of the person who engaged in the act of faith. I don’t see where Augustine states that in the excerpt though.

Catholics do believe that without grace, no person would ever attain the initial justification of faith. But Catholics also believe that they are required to respond to this grace through a movement of the individual will. I think that the following statement from Trent parallels much more closely what Augustine is saying:

CHAPTER VIII.
In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

Wait, just saw Angainor’s reply to you. Angainor, you aren’t seriously going to try and argue that Augustine is teaching sola fide in this excerpt - are you?

 

[Angainor]

Faith is still an act that requires assent of the will. Do you disagree?

I don’t accept the premise of the question. The person who is asking that is looking for a way out, a way to keep control, keep themselves in charge.

The Good News is that Jesus died for your sins and for your salvation. Just believe.

If I had to answer the question, I would say that a will can steadfastly rebuke the workings of the Spirit. So if you want to keep control, there you go.