Did the council of trent condem St. Augustine's writings against pelagius?

[Angainor]

Wait, just saw Angainor’s reply to you. Angainor, you aren’t seriously going to try and argue that Augustine is teaching sola fide in this excerpt - are you?

Justification by sola fide? Of course.

 

[VoiceofOne]

Not by works of man lest he boast, but by faith is salvation given.

All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

However if faith produces no works, that faith is dead.

The coucil of Trent is ecumenism after all, it does it’s decrees in total absence of God. It is the continuing tradition of men, trying to overide God’s word. It has no value in and of itself.

 

[Church_Militant]

Not by works of man lest he boast, but by faith is salvation given.

All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

However if faith produces no works, that faith is dead.

The coucil of Trent is ecumenism after all, it does it’s decrees in total absence of God. It is the continuing tradition of men, trying to overide God’s word. It has no value in and of itself.

In your opinion…for what it is worth.

I don’t see how you can claim that Trent or any councils are traditions of men when as a Baptist, one of the tenets of your faith is Sola Scriptura, a reformed doctrine that has no basis in the Word of God, but is indeed a new wind of doctrine concocted by men.

If, as I have stated, there is no scriptural basis for SS, then every subsequent doctrine that is based upon it becomes a teaching of men based upon that cornerstone or error.

In that respect your assertion would actually apply to your own beliefs when you said.

It is the continuing tradition of men, trying to overide God’s word. It has no value in and of itself.

 

[tdgesq]

I don’t accept the premise of the question.

Then point out the false premise that’s implicated. It’s not like I’m asking you whether you’ve stopped beating your wife yet.

The person who is asking that is looking for a way out, a way to keep control, keep themselves in charge.

I’m quite sure that you don’t know my personal motivations for asking the question; as if it would be relevant anyway. In any case, your guess is wrong.

The Good News is that Jesus died for your sins and for your salvation. Just believe.

I do.

If I had to answer the question, I would say that a will can steadfastly rebuke the workings of the Spirit. So if you want to keep control, there you go.

That is a far more honest answer than I was expecting. I appreciate that. I believe the same thing, and not because I desire to retain control over my life but because I believe it is necessary to maintain God’s justice and mercy as indicated in scripture and natural theology. You almost sound like a Thomist here. That’s supposed to be a compliment! I respect your position and don’t believe I’ll comment any further because (as you may have already noticed) we have several recent threads debating free will vs. predestination.

 

[tdgesq]

Justification by sola fide? Of course.

I will comment on this.

Look at what your man Luther has to say about Augustine’s soteriology:

Augustine has sometimes erred and is not to be trusted. Although good and holy, he was yet lacking in the true faith, as well as the other fathers…But when the door was opened for me in Paul, so that I understood what justification by faith is, it was all over with Augustine.

(Luther’s Works 54, 49)

It was Augustine’s view that the law…if the Holy Spirit assists, the works of the law do justify…I reply by saying “No”.

(Luther’s Works 54, 10)

I mean, I know we all want Augustine to be on our side - but seriously.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

No, he didn’t say “alone”. If he thought that someone interpret “justification is obtained by faith” and “there is no right work wherein he who does it may live” as “justification is obtained by faith and …” he might have.

What possible “and …” could fit into the Augustine quote?

I am not exactly certain what you are saying here.

We are justified by faith - but if that means that you say “Jesus I believe in you” and that is all, you are deluding yourself if you think that that justifies.

First, saying something - even publicly - doesn’t mean that you truly believe. If you truly have faith, then you want to do good works (James 2:14-26). But, it is true that we cannot merit justification by works of the law. Just as we are not justified by faith alone, we are not justified by works alone. And all of this is a grace of God.

Augustine, in combating the Pelagians, is stating that God’s grace is required first. The Pelagians taught that we can merit our own salvation (works alone). Some tried to soften this by saying that we need God, but we can initiate the relationship on our own (Semi-Pelagians).

But, we cannot even chose to follow and accept Jesus without the grace of God (1 Corinthians 12:3). In fact, we don’t even have the desire to do a good deed, like helping an old woman cross the street, without the grace of God (Philippians 2:13).

A good way to think of the Catholic perspective is this:

We are justified by grace, through faith, unto good works.

 

[Contarini]

Your position seems to be evolving. “By the movement of his own will” sure sounds like the person is moving his own will; unaided.

No, it doesn’t. Grace and human free will are not an either/or. Grace moves the will, but it is still our own wills being moved. You are reading a Lutheran dichotomy into Augustine, where it does not belong.

Both Luther and Melanchthon admitted that Augustine did not agree with them on justification–why are you claiming otherwise?

You seem to be adopting that alternative as well.

No, because I believe in prevenient grace.

The logical progression is a person is unregenerated → grace then moves the person to choose to delight in Christ.

Grace enters when the person is yet unregenerated.

Yes regeneration logically precedes faith. “While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” “It is the sick who are in need of a physician.”

The difference between a Lutheran and Calvinist is that a Lutheran says God came to save the whole world. Faith comes by the Holy Spirit through hearing the word and anyone can come to faith by hearing the word.

So people come to faith by the “movement of their own will”?

Edwin