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twf
Guest
I would think the late Monsignor Lemaitre, father of the “Big Bang” theory, and a Catholic priest in good standing, would agree with you here…regardless of what Fr. Ripperger may opine.
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twf
Guest
They’re not a great philosophical source from a Catholic perspective…their entire theology is rooted in a very Protestant “Sola Scriptura”. They are so married to their understanding of Sola Scriptura, which requires a literalist reading of Genesis, that their bad theology also leads to bad science…
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tafan2
Guest
From the Angelic Doctor:
For man’s body was indissoluble not by reason of any intrinsic vigor of immortality, but by reason of a supernatural force given by God to the soul, whereby it was enabled to preserve the body from all corruption so long as it remained itself subject to God.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1097.htm#article1
For man’s body was indissoluble not by reason of any intrinsic vigor of immortality, but by reason of a supernatural force given by God to the soul, whereby it was enabled to preserve the body from all corruption so long as it remained itself subject to God.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1097.htm#article1
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neophyte
Guest
Nothing in that can be taken to mean that the Second Law of Thermodynamiccs was not in place prior to the fall.
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tafan2
Guest
Dictionary : PRETERNATURAL GIFTS
PRETERNATURAL GIFTS Favors granted by God above and beyond the powers or capacities of the nature that receives them but not beyond those of all created nature. Such gifts perfect nature but do not carry it beyond the limits of created nature. They include three great privileges to which human...
www.catholicculture.org
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tafan2
Guest
I was responding to a point made by a different poster. My initial post reflects my opinion on the OP’s question. The suggested answer given in the OP is rather strange, at best, opinion in my opinion.
I would speculate, that the fall occurred around 75000 years ago when we know a completely unique thing happened in the history of the natural world: humans started speaking (this would be when Adam and Eve were created). There is likely zero scientific evidence that the second law of thermodynamics did not exist prior to that, and likely much evidence it did.
I would speculate, that the fall occurred around 75000 years ago when we know a completely unique thing happened in the history of the natural world: humans started speaking (this would be when Adam and Eve were created). There is likely zero scientific evidence that the second law of thermodynamics did not exist prior to that, and likely much evidence it did.
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John10
Guest
It is not very simple to know for sure, however when Christ resurrected the “second Law of thermodynamics” still goes on. However, Christ resurrected body is no longer bound to it, neither will we once that happens.
So God could have brought that law after the Fall, or God could have created something entirely different which is not subjected to any of the material realities in which we currently live.
So God could have brought that law after the Fall, or God could have created something entirely different which is not subjected to any of the material realities in which we currently live.
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rom
Guest
You don’t have to. I understand because I am a very busy man myself. I’m sure there will be other opportunities later when you will be able to prove your point.
Well, in that respect, yes. But even that does not mean that everything they write is garbage. We just have to read their articles with a critical eye, and not swallow everything they say.
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neophyte
Guest
The simplest way I can explain it is by saying that thermodynamic entropy is a physical property of matter, which is a function of the distribution of heat within a system: substance, temperature, and pressure. Given a system of two bodies at different temperatures and/or pressures, the entropy of that system will be at some value. If you allow the heat to flow from one to the other until they stabilize at a single temperature and pressure, the final entropy of the system will be at a higher value.
Saying that entropy exists as a consequence of the Fall is like… you might as well say that same thing about density, electrical resistance, or thermal conductivity.
Most of the people at AIG fall into the error of thinking that, since thermodynamic entropy has something to do with disorder (that is, the arrangement of heat energy in a system), therefore any change in something that looks ordered indicates a change in thermodynamic entropy. They totally miss that thermodynamic entropy has to do with the order of the heat energy of the system; it has nothing to do with the colors of marbles or tiles that one might mix up, how messy you room gets, or with what they call “information”. Thermodynamic entropy is a function of what something is made of, its temperature, and its pressure. Period.
Deeper explanation requires some math, and I’ll skip that unless you ask otherwise. I will, however, mention that the math includes something called the information function, which has wider use than just thermodynamics and is a very interesting area of mathematics. It was developed by a guy named C. E. Shannon, who was trying to understand the limits of data compression and the uncertainties in data transmission over a noisy channel. It turns out that random strings (which don’t have much meaning) have more information than nonrandom strings (which do); the character string “nesweb_ll_,c_hmtwstatmo__a_rf.la_dataseyalweheiii_s_” has more information and less meaning than the string “mary_had_a_little_lamb,_its_fleece_was_white_as_snow” (which uses the exact same characters). That’s one of the things that the AIG crowd gets exactly backwards.
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johnz123
Guest
Thank you for the explanation. Back when I was in college I took all of the lower division level physics classes (for scientists and engineers) except for quantum mechanics and relativity. I remember I took thermodynamics and optics in particular so I have some basic understanding but it’s been a while so I do forgot some things. I see your point about the difference between heat energy order and general disorder. I studied computer science so I have familiarity with information theory. But I don’t remember studying the “information function” you mentioned.
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Bernoulli
Guest
Entropy is actually related to information, such that a high -entropy state requires more information to describe compared to a low-entropy state.
For example, a crystal has a relatively low entropy, because particles have well-defined places, so there is less detail needed to describe each particle. Gas has more entropy, because particles are not constrained by strict rules, so each particle has to be described individually. Ash has also less structure compared to wood, therefore more freedom and higher entropy.
For example, a crystal has a relatively low entropy, because particles have well-defined places, so there is less detail needed to describe each particle. Gas has more entropy, because particles are not constrained by strict rules, so each particle has to be described individually. Ash has also less structure compared to wood, therefore more freedom and higher entropy.
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EndTimes
Guest
Science is a product of man… It concerns the Physical Realm…
There are Scriptural evidences concerning the Fall which points to all of Creation as having been negatively impacted.
Including – Romans 8:
19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; 20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labor pains until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies.
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Lucretius
Guest
Actually, I think it would be better stated that man was subject to our natural entropy because of the original sin.
Nature is like a house, which by its nature falls apart unless we pay attention to it and work to maintain it constantly. When we lost the grace of original justice, we were left subject to this nature too: we are no longer given an easy life of virtue, but rather we now need to be watchful and maintain our virtue from decay and the temptation to damage it ourselves deliberately through sin. This is the curse of Adam, that we would have to work hard all the days of our life just for our daily bread, that is, just to maintain ourselves as we are.
In paradise, God himself worked to maintain our virtue for us, so that we would be free to grow or multiply in virtue indefinitely. But by our choice to lose faith in God, we now have to do this hard work ourselves. We now have to fight a deep tendency in our own nature to decay into every sort of vice, a decay that might start small, but easily accelerates, like falling. Thus, we call it the Fall.
Nature is like a house, which by its nature falls apart unless we pay attention to it and work to maintain it constantly. When we lost the grace of original justice, we were left subject to this nature too: we are no longer given an easy life of virtue, but rather we now need to be watchful and maintain our virtue from decay and the temptation to damage it ourselves deliberately through sin. This is the curse of Adam, that we would have to work hard all the days of our life just for our daily bread, that is, just to maintain ourselves as we are.
In paradise, God himself worked to maintain our virtue for us, so that we would be free to grow or multiply in virtue indefinitely. But by our choice to lose faith in God, we now have to do this hard work ourselves. We now have to fight a deep tendency in our own nature to decay into every sort of vice, a decay that might start small, but easily accelerates, like falling. Thus, we call it the Fall.
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