Did the Gospel take from, cite or use anything present in the deuterocanonical books?

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Hello,
I wanted to know whether Jesus Himself, or the author of one of the Gospel used something from the deuterocanonical books, in the same vein that the Gospel quotes sometimes from the septuagint rather than from the masoretic text.
Can someone have hints in showing us that such books were used as sources of doctrine in the gospel, even if indirectly?

Would be a knock-out argument against some Bible versions 😛
 
In the Book of Tobit, Tobias proposes to marry Raguel’s daughter Sarah. Raguel agrees but discloses that she had seven husbands and each one died on their wedding night.

***for it is your right to take my child. But let me explain the true situation to you. I have given my daughter to seven husbands, and when each came to her he died in the night. *(Tobit 7:10-11)

The Sadducees reject all but the first five books of the Bible and also rejected the resurrection of the dead. They ask Jesus about this passage in the Book of Tobit specifically. Their trickery is twofold - they want to trip him up on both the resurrection of the dead and the canon of Hebrew Scripture. They are asking about the Book of Tobit.

The same day Sad’ducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection; and they asked him a question, saying, “Teacher, Moses said, `If a man dies, having no children, his brother must marry the widow, and raise up children for his brother.’ Now there were seven brothers among us; the first married, and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother. So too the second and third, down to the seventh. After them all, the woman died. In the resurrection, therefore, to which of the seven will she be wife? For they all had her.” (Matthew 22:23-28)

Jesus’ response is direct.

But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29)

The Sadducees are asking about a story in what to them was not part of the Hebrew Scriptures. Sounds familiar, right? Jesus flat out tells the Sadducees that they are wrong because they don’t know the Scriptures.

-Tim-
 
There is also the desolating sacrilege.

*Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred and forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege upon the altar of burnt offering. They also built altars in the surrounding cities of Judah, (1 Maccabees 1:54)

"So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), (Matthew 24:15)*

Be careful here though, as I think this is also mentioned in Jerimiah or Daniel.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
There is also the desolating sacrilege.

Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred and forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege upon the altar of burnt offering. They also built altars in the surrounding cities of Judah, (1 Maccabees 1:54)

"So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), (Matthew 24:15)

Be careful here though, as I think this is also mentioned in Jerimiah or Daniel.

-Tim-
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Duh. It says it is in the Book of the Prophet Daniel right in the quote. 😊
 
MarcoPG said:
Hello,
I wanted to know whether Jesus Himself, or the author of one of the Gospel used something from the deuterocanonical books, in the same vein that the Gospel quotes sometimes from the septuagint rather than from the masoretic text.
Can someone have hints in showing us that such books were used as sources of doctrine in the gospel, even if indirectly?

Would be a knock-out argument against some Bible versions 😛
Click to expand...
Luke 21:20-24: [Jesus said:] When Jerusalem is surrounded by armies, then you will know that its desolation is near… For this is the time of punishment that fulfills all that has been written… Many shall fall by the edge of the sword. I think there is good evidence that this statement by Jesus alludes to or cites from Sirach 28:14-18: Slander has shaken many, and scattered them from nation to nation, and destroyed strong cities, and overturned the houses of great men. … Many have fallen by the edge of the sword.First of all, Jesus repeats the words of Sirach almost verbatim. Second of all, I think He indicates that it comes from a Scripture when He says, “[it] has been written.” Third of all, I think Sirach is the only possible source of this phrase, because I don’t think it appears anywhere else in the Old Testament. I think that is good evidence that Jesus is citing Sirach as a prophecy and using a Scriptural formula to introduce the quotation.

However, if you interpret this as a quote like I do, as an example of fulfilled prophecy, it seems to place a somewhat uncomfortably spiritual reading of Sirach in Jesus’ words. Sirach was actually speaking about the dangers of the tongue when he wrote these words. (See the context of the Sirach passage.) Nevertheless, it is very common for the New Testament to glean prophecies from the Old Testament by interpreting the words in a spiritually foreshadowing way, and if this is a quote from Sirach it is a very reasonable example of that.

By the way, there are several additional examples in St. Paul’s epistles and the rest of the New Testament apart from the Gospels. Are you sure you only want examples where Jesus or a Gospel writer cites from the Deuterocanonical books?
 
Are you limiting to just the Gospels, or other parts of the New Testament (the letters)?
 
dmar198 said:
Luke 21:20-24: [Jesus said:] When Jerusalem is surrounded by armies, then you will know that its desolation is near… For this is the time of punishment that fulfills all that has been written… Many shall fall by the edge of the sword. I think there is good evidence that this statement by Jesus alludes to or cites from Sirach 28:14-18: Slander has shaken many, and scattered them from nation to nation, and destroyed strong cities, and overturned the houses of great men. … Many have fallen by the edge of the sword.First of all, Jesus repeats the words of Sirach almost verbatim. Second of all, I think He indicates that it comes from a Scripture when He says, “[it] has been written.” Third of all, I think Sirach is the only possible source of this phrase, because I don’t think it appears anywhere else in the Old Testament. I think that is good evidence that Jesus is citing Sirach as a prophecy and using a Scriptural formula to introduce the quotation.

However, if you interpret this as a quote like I do, as an example of fulfilled prophecy, it seems to place a somewhat uncomfortably spiritual reading of Sirach in Jesus’ words. Sirach was actually speaking about the dangers of the tongue when he wrote these words. (See the context of the Sirach passage.) Nevertheless, it is very common for the New Testament to glean prophecies from the Old Testament by interpreting the words in a spiritually foreshadowing way, and if this is a quote from Sirach it is a very reasonable example of that.
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I think that there are other uses of “the edge of the sword” in the OT, including many “mouth of the sword” which is essentially the “edge of the sword” as the Hebrews call the edge of a sword the mouth because the edge of the sword bites.

Of note though, was it not the slander of Jesus by the false accusations that brought him to death the cross, which then brought down vengeance on those caught in the temple walls as it burned some 40 years later? So the crime of slander fits in a most appropriate way.

Further, Luke 21:22 (*For this is the time of punishment that fulfills all that has been written… *) refers to a whole bunch of stuff in the OT, like Isaiah 29:2-4; Hosea 10:14-15; Deuteronomy 28:49-57; 1 Kings 9:6-9; Psalm 79:1-13; Micah 3:8-12.

That’s why I think our Lord uses the word “ALL” that has been written.
 
*There is a man who is rich through his diligence and self-denial, and this is the reward allotted to him: when he says, “I have found rest, and now I shall enjoy my goods!” he does not know how much time will pass until he leaves them to others and dies. Stand by your covenant and attend to it, and grow old in your work. (Sirach 11:18-20)

And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man brought forth plentifully; and he thought to himself, What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?' And he said, I will do this: I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.’ But God said to him, `Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” (Luke 12:16-21)*

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
There is a man who is rich through his diligence and self-denial, and this is the reward allotted to him: when he says, “I have found rest, and now I shall enjoy my goods!” he does not know how much time will pass until he leaves them to others and dies. Stand by your covenant and attend to it, and grow old in your work. (Sirach 11:18-20)

And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man brought forth plentifully; and he thought to himself, What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?' And he said, I will do this: I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.’ But God said to him, `Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” (Luke 12:16-21)

-Tim-
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So you’re saying Jesus simply quoted Sirach?
 
TimothyH said:
There is a man who is rich through his diligence and self-denial, and this is the reward allotted to him: when he says, “I have found rest, and now I shall enjoy my goods!” he does not know how much time will pass until he leaves them to others and dies. Stand by your covenant and attend to it, and grow old in your work. (Sirach 11:18-20)

And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man brought forth plentifully; and he thought to himself, What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?' And he said, I will do this: I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.’ But God said to him, `Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” (Luke 12:16-21)

-Tim-
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However, Luke 12:16-21 also brings to mind Psalm 49:16-20:

16Do not be afraid when a man becomes rich, When the glory of his house is increased; 17For when he dies he will carry nothing away; His glory will not descend after him.……18Though while he lives he congratulates himself-- And though men praise you when you do well for yourself-- 19He shall go to the generation of his fathers; They will never see the light. 20Man in his pomp, yet without understanding, Is like the beasts that perish.

And Luke 12:16-21 also draws on Proverbs 1:32 and 1 Samuel 25 where the story of a rich man, Nabal, whose name means ‘Fool’ or ‘Churl’, who cared not for generous use of his wealth, but for self-admiring acquisition. Being “a fool” his “prosperity eventually destroyed him.”
 
TimothyH said:
There is a man who is rich through his diligence and self-denial, and this is the reward allotted to him: when he says, “I have found rest, and now I shall enjoy my goods!” he does not know how much time will pass until he leaves them to others and dies. Stand by your covenant and attend to it, and grow old in your work. (Sirach 11:18-20)

And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man brought forth plentifully; and he thought to himself, What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?' And he said, I will do this: I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.’ But God said to him, `Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” (Luke 12:16-21)

-Tim-
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What I meant to say above (post #9) was, so your saying our Lord used the example in Sirach, to expand upon his own parable, drawing from other OT sources, and a common scenario at the time (rich farmer/land owner) to form a clear message about the dangers of greed, even from justly acquired wealth? Do I understand that correctly? 🙂
 
Slightly different take:

John 10:22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

The Festival of Dedication, or Hanukkah, was celebrated by Jesus. And this is only recorded in Maccabees.
 
FishyPete said:
What I meant to say above (post #9) was, so your saying our Lord used the example in Sirach, to expand upon his own parable, drawing from other OT sources, and a common scenario at the time (rich farmer/land owner) to form a clear message about the dangers of greed, even from justly acquired wealth? Do I understand that correctly? 🙂
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Petty much, yeah. That’s about it. Remember that Jesus was, among other things, a Rabbi.

There are various rabbinical techniques such as remez which means to hint. They would throw out a quick reference to an Old Testament verse to bring the hearers mind to the passages and themes to which he referenced.

There are other Rabbinical teaching techniques including mashal (parable) but rather than explain them myself, there is a very good paper on them - extremely short, with example - well worth reading.

healing2thenations.net/papers/rabbinical.htm

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
Petty much, yeah. That’s about it. Remember that Jesus was, among other things, a Rabbi.

There are various rabbinical techniques such as remez which means to hint. They would throw out a quick reference to an Old Testament verse to bring the hearers mind to the passages and themes to which he referenced.

There are other Rabbinical teaching techniques including mashal (parable) but rather than explain them myself, there is a very good paper on them - extremely short, with example - well worth reading.

healing2thenations.net/papers/rabbinical.htm

-Tim-
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Thanks!
 
Of course:
“Not all sin is deadly.” (1 Jn 5:17) so what is the result? For “Nothing defiled shall enter heaven.” (Rev 21:27). So what is missing in the confusion is the doctrine of Purgatory, which is why Catholics pray for the departed, as commanded in the Sacred Scriptures.

For the Book of Machabees teaches that “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” (2 Mac 12:46).

Luther rejected those vital books mainly because they conflicted with his theological theories.
 
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