Did the Islamic Golden Age Really Existed?

[planten]

first walk on water, if that goes well begin fasting:thumbsup:

first walk on water, if that goes well begin fasting, if it hurts then start Protesting.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

i know you are not the only poster who posted on fasting, but this thread is not about fasting. it is whether the islamic golden age really existed. we need to stick to the topic.

You are correct, thank you:blush:

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

It is widely accepted that the Golden Age of Islam started in the 8th century and into the 13th century.

But let’s look at it carefully.

The Islamic era was established through warring turks in huge and terrible wars and conquests from the 7th to the 9th century that ultimately established the Caliphate.

Do you think its even remotely possible that while the empire was at war with people killing and getting killed, there were muslims who were feverishly working out mathematical algebras & science in made-shift laboratories and classrooms?

My point is this. It is (at least to me) totally ludicrous to believe that great mathematicians & scientists were born to the warring turks (barbaric in nature without any basics of math or science) during or right after the wars. It takes a few generations to produce great scientists & mathematicians.

Instead I believe it should be accepted that great mathematicians & scientists were captured and forcibly converted into muslims in these conquests. There was never any Islamic mathematicians nor Islamic scientists. There was a huge community of captive kafir mathematicians and scientists forced into islam and to adopt islamic names. Islam never had a great cultural golden age.

Just like the religion itself, everything that islam stands for is bogus and burgled/robbed/snatched/copied from the non-muslims. I cannot see how their claims can be validated/proven with sensible reasonings.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

You are not in control of the facts. You do not even understand where the caliphate began and who the initial caliphs were. Consult an encyclopedia.

I am not going to go point by point through your posting. You seem to think that Arabs and Turks are incapable of anything. I suggest you first get your chronology right, then actually study what the Arabs achieved.

You are correct to note that the Arabs did absorb the cultures around them, and that much of the learning of Arab civilization comes from this assimilation. But the guiding principle was Islam.

 

[Mosacked]

You are not in control of the facts. You do not even understand where the caliphate began and who the initial caliphs were. Consult an encyclopedia.

I am not going to go point by point through your posting. You seem to think that Arabs and Turks are incapable of anything. I suggest you first get your chronology right, then actually study what the Arabs achieved.

You are correct to note that the Arabs did absorb the cultures around them, and that much of the learning of Arab civilization comes from this assimilation. But the guiding principle was Islam.

You are right in saying the guiding principle was islam. It was islam that made the otherwise simple barbaric turks wage wars against the kafirs to establish the caliphate and ‘assimilate’ (aka forced conversion) the kafirs and the kafir’s knowledge & intelligence. Whereabout the descendants of whom became sadly known as muslims.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
.

 

[Kadaveri]

You have no idea what you’re talking about. The Caliphate was established immediately after Muhammad’s death, not in the 9th century. Neither did the Turks have anything to do with it (your disgraceful racism notwithstanding), as they did not become Muslims or any significant role in Muslim history until the late 10th century. You have no right to speak on this topic with such terrible ignorance.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

You have no idea what you’re talking about. The Caliphate was established immediately after Muhammad’s death, not in the 9th century. Neither did the Turks have anything to do with it (your disgraceful racism notwithstanding), as they did not become Muslims or any significant role in Muslim history until the late 10th century. You have no right to speak on this topic with such terrible ignorance.

Thank you Kadaveri. I suggest that the originator of this question simply read the Wikipedia article on the Caliphate. It’s a great place to start.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

You are right in saying the guiding principle was islam. It was islam that made the otherwise simple barbaric turks wage wars against the kafirs to establish the caliphate and ‘assimilate’ (aka forced conversion) the kafirs and the kafir’s knowledge & intelligence. Whereabout the descendants of whom became sadly known as muslims.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
.

The Turks did not play a prominent role in the Middle East until the 11th century when they began taking over Anatolia. That is 400 plus years after the death of Muhammad and the beginning of the caliphate.

No serious Catholic scholar inside or outside the Vatican would support your assumptions.

 

[Mosacked]

You have no idea what you’re talking about. The Caliphate was established immediately after Muhammad’s death, not in the 9th century. Neither did the Turks have anything to do with it (your disgraceful racism notwithstanding), as they did not become Muslims or any significant role in Muslim history until the late 10th century. You have no right to speak on this topic with such terrible ignorance.

You have no idea what I’m asking or even saying.

 

[Mosacked]

Thank you Kadaveri. I suggest that the originator of this question simply read the Wikipedia article on the Caliphate. It’s a great place to start.

Kadaveri spouted irrelevant gibberish and you jumped right in. That’s a great place to end.

 

[Mosacked]

The Turks did not play a prominent role in the Middle East until the 11th century when they began taking over Anatolia. That is 400 plus years after the death of Muhammad and the beginning of the caliphate.

No serious Catholic scholar inside or outside the Vatican would support your assumptions.

And you realise you just contradicted Kadaveri there whom you so ardently support?

 

[dzheremi]

You have no idea what I’m asking or even saying.

Kadaveri isn’t the only one…

 

[planten]

And you realise you just contradicted Kadaveri there whom you so ardently support?

mosacked, Caliphate was established in yer 0632 A.D. That is when the Prophet Muhammad died. Abu Bakr was elected the first Caliph. When he died, Umar was elected as the 2nd caliph. After Umar Uthman was elected the third Caliph… This is all history. Next Caliph was Ali.

After Ali, there was chaos and lot of disturbance due to the enemies of Islam becoming quite powerful. So the real Caliphate vanished. Some form of inherited power (Kingship) took over. Tthey kept calling themselves as Caliphs. But they were not the Caliph. Until the end of Uthmani caliphate in Turkey in year 1924, that was not any Caliphate.

Those in Andalus (Spain), I hope they also called themself caliphs. But they were not. However their time as rulers was excellent, the best the world ever had. We could easily call that as the golden age of Islam.

 

[wwolverine]

It is widely accepted that the Golden Age of Islam started in the 8th century and into the 13th century.

But let’s look at it carefully.

The Islamic era was established through warring turks in huge and terrible wars and conquests from the 7th to the 9th century that ultimately established the Caliphate.

Do you think its even remotely possible that while the empire was at war with people killing and getting killed, there were muslims who were feverishly working out mathematical algebras & science in made-shift laboratories and classrooms?

My point is this. It is (at least to me) totally ludicrous to believe that great mathematicians & scientists were born to the warring turks (barbaric in nature without any basics of math or science) during or right after the wars. It takes a few generations to produce great scientists & mathematicians.

Instead I believe it should be accepted that great mathematicians & scientists were captured and forcibly converted into muslims in these conquests. There was never any Islamic mathematicians nor Islamic scientists. There was a huge community of captive kafir mathematicians and scientists forced into islam and to adopt islamic names. Islam never had a great cultural golden age.

Just like the religion itself, everything that islam stands for is bogus and burgled/robbed/snatched/copied from the non-muslims. I cannot see how their claims can be validated/proven with sensible reasonings.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

Dear Mosacked,

Dont know of the golden age, but believing it did exist, maybe thats when the arabian Nights was written to show the glory of all the kings of than, And also assuming that that period was the best for all as is being said. What amazes me is why all of a sudden they became dormant?

Centuries later we find that even the cars on the roads of the muslim world are all made in Us or Japan, Every other thing that is found here is foreign.

What would the muslim world be if the Americans were not out there trying to find oil and the oil paradise was never found?

What happened to all the top mathematicians of than, why they did not pass their maths to the future muslims?

Why is the muslim world so backward? in the 20th century?

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

And you realise you just contradicted Kadaveri there whom you so ardently support?

Mosacked, please understand that you need to study history. Having majored in Arabic, and having taken at least 6 history courses about Islam and especially medieval Islamic civilization, I have a good enough idea of what I am talking about. I think you need to separate the Turks from the Arabs. Turks came out of Central Asia, as nomadic conquerers and they tended to adopt the religions of the areas they conquered. Thus, you will find Buddhists in Korea and Mongolia, and Muslims in the Near East. Yes, the Korean language is similar to Turkish.

The early rise of Islam was an Arab phenomenon. The Arabs conquered, and very quickly, the whole of the Near and Middle East, and North Africa, from Spain to Persia. The conquered peoples, over several generations, became Muslim. Again, as I said, you are right to note the adoption of conquered cultures. However the Turks were not in the region in any important way until the 10th century.

Classical Islamic culture is an amalgam of the cultures that it adopted. Yet, the unifying force was Islam and the Arabic language.

Catholics do not score points on Catholic Answers by ignoring history.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Catholics do not score points on Catholic Answers by ignoring history.

Indeed.

I think, to get back on topic, we should ask, were either the Bahgdad Caliphate or the Iberian Muslim kingdoms “golden ages”–and specifics of when and why or when and why they were not

 

[Contarini]

Kadaveri spouted irrelevant gibberish and you jumped right in. That’s a great place to end.

Your OP was the irrelevant (and inaccurate) gibberish.

When confronted with the fact that you have your history badly wrong, you label the correction “gibberish” and jump on the fact that your two correctors (I corrected you as well but I did so in another thread where you made the same post) disagree by a century. (I believe that Kadaveri’s 10th century is correct and Usbek’s 11th century is incorrect.)

The point is that the Turks were not the foundation of the “Golden Age,” though Islamic cultural creativity did in fact survive their “takeover” (and not all the warlords during the “Middle Period” were Turkish–many were Arab and Persian as well). The “Golden Age” began in the Abbasid era, which took place before the Turks appeared on the scene and which was generally an era of peace and prosperity (about 750-900).

No irrelevant gibberish here. Just historical facts that are inconvenient for your prejudiced agenda.

Edwin

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

(I believe that Kadaveri’s 10th century is correct and Usbek’s 11th century is incorrect.)

Edwin

I grovel in mortification. I always have a hard time with centuries, 900s being the 10th, 1000s being the 11th…

Of course I guess it depends on what point in the continuing Turkic migration we are talking about.

Islamic history is always so fascinating.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

That was a good reminder in rememberance of Jesus. But protest about fasting may continue.

I have christian friends and as far as I know, I mean I have heard and believed, that christian fasting is more strict and TOUGH than the Muslims fasting.

You have to be kidding. Muslims fast from sunrise to sunset for 30 days. That means no food, no drink, and no smoking all day long. I have fasted in the Muslim way, as a Baha’i, and I can tell you that the very light meals and tea/coffee/water/juice that Christians have during the day is nothing like an all day, sometimes 14 hour plus fast.

 

[planten]

You have to be kidding. Muslims fast from sunrise to sunset for 30 days. That means no food, no drink, and no smoking all day long. I have fasted in the Muslim way, as a Baha’i, and I can tell you that the very light meals and tea/coffee/water/juice that Christians have during the day is nothing like an all day, sometimes 14 hour plus fast.

Quite interesting. In England, we had to face about 18 hours fast in summer and later, with some facility, we faced 23 hours fast continous for one month. We used to eat all slowly for one hour from 9 p.m. to 10 p.m. I personally do not know the exact nature of the christians fasts. I had just heard their fast may harder than Muslim’s fasts.

Now two questions::

1. Do the Bahai’s fast in the same way as Muslims do?? I hope not.
2. What is Episcopian or Episcopal? Please tell.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Quite interesting. In England, we had to face about 18 hours fast in summer and later, with some facility, we faced 23 hours fast continous for one month. We used to eat all slowly for one hour from 9 p.m. to 10 p.m. I personally do not know the exact nature of the christians fasts. I had just heard their fast may harder than Muslim’s fasts.

Now two questions::

1. Do the Bahai’s fast in the same way as Muslims do?? I hope not.
2. What is Episcopian or Episcopal? Please tell.

again, this thread is not about fasting, but it is about the islamic golden age. perhaps, you can start a new threat on fasting in religons.

episcopal and episcopalian pertain to the episcopal church here in america which is a branch of the church of england. it started during the revolutionary war against england in america, because we were trying to win our freedom from england so did not want to worship in a church associated with the church of england, so it was changed in america to the episcopal church. it is protestant, but also, very similar to the Catholic church and is part of the anglican communion.