Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

[brb3]

Actually, that’s not the case. There are four ancient churches that all possess apostolic succession: The Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, and the Assyrian Church of the East. In addition, there are others that are not ancient in origin, but still possess apostolic succession, such as the Polish National Catholic Church.

How could this possibly be ? …we know Christ chose Peter alone & all the Apostles gave deference to Peter in Rome !!

However, if another Pope since decided to share his Chair…I suppose he could …and maybe they did …if the current apostolic successors tell us that occurred.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Ah yes…the protestants got some things correct.

Prove it, Mickey. You make a lot of unsupported, dogmatic allegations on this site. I’d like to see you back something up for a change. Prove ‘rock’ means Peter’s profession of faith.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Scripture does not, but certain early Church leaders did. The two are not mutually exclusive. Without Simon’s confession to Jesus, as revealed to him by God, Jesus never would have said: You are kepha and on this kepha I will build my church…

But doesn’t this imply that the Church stands on one person alone? Either Peter or any of his supposed successors? This then contradicts St. Ignatius’ saying that the Church resides in the bishop and the people gathered around him and the Eucharist. But if you add one and one together, you realize that Peter does exist in every bishop where the Church is. Because by current Catholic interpretation, the Church is only built upon Peter. So does this mean St. Ignatius who is not far removed from the Apostles got it wrong?

 

[joe370]

The holy fathers interpret Scripture for us. There was pretty much a consesus on this matter…although some Fathers said that the rock was Christ.

Not in isolation though. The consensus among the Fathers was: Simon - You are rock and on this rock I will build my church…I have many quotes… Sort of a hobby of mine…BTW, the CC does not deny that Jesus is the Divine Cornerstone/Rock of His church.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

The holy fathers interpret Scripture for us. There was pretty much a consesus on this matter…although some Fathers said that the rock was Christ.

There was no consensus on this matter. Most of them say the rock is Peter. I’ll have some quotes for you tomorrow.

There were several things the Fathers disputed among themselves. That’s why the Holy Spirit was sent – to sort it all out. The result is the doctrines of the Catholic Church.

 

[joe370]

=

ConstantineTG;10207732]But doesn’t this imply that the Church stands on one person alone?

Jesus is that one Divine Person. Jesus is the Divine Cornerstone/Rock; no catholic would ever deny that obvious fact. However, Peter is the visible rock, as per Matthew 16. This for me is not even debatable. The language used is very specific and clear, and one of the reasons why I left protestantism.

Either Peter or any of his supposed successors?

Supposed???

This then contradicts St. Ignatius’ saying that the Church resides in the bishop and the people gathered around him and the Eucharist.

How? Each particular church within the church universal, resides in the bishop and the people gathered around him and the Eucharist. I am not challenging you; scripture is…

But if you add one and one together, you realize that Peter does exist in every bishop where the Church is. Because by current Catholic interpretation, the Church is only built upon Peter. So does this mean St. Ignatius who is not far removed from the Apostles got it wrong?

Not true. The apostles (all of them) form the foundation of Jesus’ church, as per scripture. Again, it was Jesus Who said, regarding His church universal:

“And I tell you that you are Peter,**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23691b”)] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

 

[Mickey]

That’s what Protestants say.

They got it right.

So how about you post it. Book, chapter and verse, please.

In Scripture it is stated in Matthrw 16:18. We also see that the apostles and prophets are the foundation with Christ as the Cornerstone (Eph 2:19-20) .

For the holy fathers, they are too numerous to post. However, we are a bit off topic now. You may want to start another thread on the subject.

 

[RyanBlack]

How could this possibly be ? …we know Christ chose Peter alone & all the Apostles gave deference to Peter in Rome !!

However, if another Pope since decided to share his Chair…I suppose he could …and maybe they did …if the current apostolic successors tell us that occurred.

The Catholic Church herself teaches that the Assyrian Church of the East, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the Eastern Orthodox Churches are true churches that have maintained Apostolic Succession.

 

[Mickey]

The language used is very specific and clear, and one of the reasons why I left protestantism.

The interpretation is indeed very clear.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The interpretation is indeed very clear.

For me what knocked me off my socks was the Eucharistic understanding of the Church, which cannot be reconciled with a pope-centric ecclesiology.

 

[joe370]

The interpretation is indeed very clear.

That was why I said it.

 

[joe370]

For me what knocked me off my socks was the Eucharistic understanding of the Church, which cannot be reconciled with a pope-centric ecclesiology.

The two are not mutually exclusive. As per the CC the Eucharist is the source and summit…Please show me how Matthew 16 is interpreted to mean that Jesus’ church is built on Jesus, as opposed to Simon, renamed rock, keeping in mind that all catholics believe that Jesus is the Divine Cornerstone/Rock? Let’s analyze the language to see if the following says what it really says: And I tell you that you are Peter,**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23691b”)] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadesc] will not overcome it.

 

[joe370]

The interpretation is indeed very clear.

Slipping in and slipping out…

 

[GaryTaylor]

my Eucharistic understanding

Being key words. That box may be slightly small for the Lord.

 

[brb3]

The Catholic Church herself teaches that the Assyrian Church of the East, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the Eastern Orthodox Churches are true churches that have maintained Apostolic Succession.

And, how do they explain it ? Do they admit the Apostles didn’t see Peter as their leader & the Apostles were off on their own as LoneRangers ??

 

[ConstantineTG]

The two are not mutually exclusive. As per the CC the Eucharist is the source and summit…Please show me how Matthew 16 is interpreted to mean that Jesus’ church is built on Jesus, as opposed to Simon, renamed rock, keeping in mind that all catholics believe that Jesus is the Divine Cornerstone/Rock? Let’s analyze the language to see if the following says what it really says: And I tell you that you are Peter,**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23691b”)] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadesc] will not overcome it.

From St. Peter himself:

1 Peter 2:4-10
*4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”**

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”[c]

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[d]

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.**

If Peter is an individual and unique rock, why did Peter himself said this? The only unique rock/stone is Jesus Christ the corner stone. And we are the building blocks that build up the Church.*

 

[ConstantineTG]

Being key words. That box may be slightly small for the Lord.

Wow Gary, have you stooped so low to even edit what I say on the very same page where my original statement was made?

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

But doesn’t this imply that the Church stands on one person alone?

The Church stands on Jesus Christ alone. I think we can agree about that.

Either Peter or any of his supposed successors?

The Catholic Church makes no such claim. The authority given to Peter and his successors is derived from Jesus’ words in the Gospel of Matthew and from Scripture generally.

When the master of the household left town on a trip, he always left a trusted servant in charge. It gave him the keys to all his property (except maybe the harem) and made sure everyone know the servant was him while he was away. Jesus relates this in a parable

Jesus is no longer with in on this earth in his human person. He knew he was going away on a trip, so he gave a trusted servant the keys and made sure everyone knew the trusted servant was in charge. That’s why we call the pope ‘the Vicar of Christ.’

Peter says nothing about himself in Scripture related to his authority. Everything said regarding that authority is said by someone else. If Matthew had any doubts about what Jesus meant, I think he would have mentioned it somewhere.

QUOTE=ConstantineTG;10207732]This then contradicts St. Ignatius’ saying that the Church resides in the bishop and the people gathered around him and the Eucharist. But if you add one and one together, you realize that Peter does exist in every bishop where the Church is. Because by current Catholic interpretation, the Church is only built upon Peter. So does this mean St. Ignatius who is not far removed from the Apostles got it wrong?

This entire paragraph is pure nonsense.

 

[joe370]

From St. Peter himself:

1 Peter 2:4-10
*4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”**

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”[c]

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[d]

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.***

If Peter is an individual and unique rock, why did Peter himself said this? The only unique rock/stone is Jesus Christ the corner stone. And we are the building blocks that build up the Church.

OK. I agree with Peter in the preceding passage. This does not deny anything. Perhpas we can stick to the following:

Please show me how Matthew 16 is interpreted to mean that Jesus’ church is built on Jesus, as opposed to Simon, renamed rock, keeping in mind that all catholics believe that Jesus is the Divine Cornerstone/Rock? Let’s analyze the language to see if the following says what it really says: And I tell you that you are Peter,** and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it.**

 

[Mickey]

I have many quotes… Sort of a hobby of mine…

Same here. But it is usually futile to start throwing quotes at eachother.