Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

[brb3]

I’m glad you brought up Pentecost. According to you, Christ had already proclaimed Peter to be Pope, leader of the Church, keeper of the keys, etc. yet what was the post-Ascension, pre-Pentecostal Church doing? Waiting- for the descent of the Holy Spirit, upon the whole Church, just as Christ had promised. It was THEN that the Church began preaching, teaching, growing, working miracles. Think about it.

Yes I thought about it …for about 10 seconds !! They were learning to follow their leader !!! Patience my friend … The Feast of Pentecost was a special occasion…it was not upon them yet … they ALL HAD TO WAIT, EVEN PETER …

 

[brb3]

Peter is the rock because of his confession. Do you think Jesus would build His Church on Peter if Peter went the way of Judas? Is the value of Peter in him being Peter, or is it in the faith he professes?

I agree with you, it is not mutually exclusive. Peter is the rock on which the Church is built. And so is every Apostle and every Bishop since.

Did Peter have that faith on his own, or did Christ have to train him for the Primacy Role ?
Over and over, scripture recounts those training events Peter needed to grow into the job.
Thus, Christ is giving us more evidence than we SHOULD ever need to see the PREPPING of PAPA Pope.

 

[brb3]

Acts 20:7-12
7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. 9 Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. 10 Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “He’s alive!” 11 Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left. 12 The people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted.

Peter raised the dead AND walked on water. So, lets give him the greater gifts !
Also, scripture teaches Paul showed due deference ALWAYS to Peter!

 

[brb3]

We have a King, Jesus Christ. Patriarchs aren’t Popes, that is the greatest mistake of every Roman Catholic regarding Orthodox ecclesiology. They aren’t “Pope-lite”. The Church is formed like the Roman Republic, the bishops are the senators and the Emperor is Christ

If Christ wanted full democracy, as u believe, he would never of named Simon PETER, called him the ROCK, or specially groomed Peter for the leadership spot.

Good ideas alone don’t make ur case …w/o scripture to back u up …which they don’t .

 

[brb3]

Yes, we ALL know Christ rules from Heaven …but, he established a PrimeMinister here on earth to oversee, lead us, and keep the peace !!

Again, no organization/society on EARTH will ever run for very long w/o a Head Leader. Until Christ returns again in GLORY…wherever is the successor to Peter, there is the Church of the Apostles, always inspired by the HOLY SPIRIT & thus guided into ALL TRUTH.

 

[Mickey]

True. Plus, as has been said many time already, the bishops in general are the successors of all the Apostles, including St. Peter, for there is no unique sacrament of petrine succession.

Indeed.

 

[Schism_hater]

If Christ wanted full democracy, as u believe, he would never of named Simon PETER, called him the ROCK, or specially groomed Peter for the leadership spot.

Good ideas alone don’t make ur case …w/o scripture to back u up …which they don’t .

I don’t think anyone here, Ortho or RC, is advocating that the Church is or should be a “full democracy”.

As to being backed up by scripture, I will again point to Acts 15. That is the Orthodox model.

 

[Mickey]

I don’t know.

That’s what I figured.

 

[Mickey]

Augustine was right the first time.

Oh I see.

 

[Mickey]

I will again point to Acts 15.

Yes. St James says: For which cause I judge…

 

[joe370]

That has nothing to do with the institution of a sureme infallible bishop of Rome which one must be in submission to. PS…Are you familiar with the Greek usage of the word “love” in John 21.

Here is something else:
He speaks from this time lowly things, on His way to His passion, that He might show His humanity. For He that hath built His Church upon Peter’s confession, and has so fortified it, that ten thousand dangers and deaths are not to prevail over it [St. John Chrysostom]
Who wrote this? It does not seem to come from one of the Fathers of the Church.

Based on the quotes provided by Ferde Rombola do you at least concede that Simon is the rock (not just Simon’s confession) on which Jesus built (still building) His church?

 

[Mickey]

Based on the quotes provided by Ferde Rombola do you at least concede that Simon is the rock (not just Simon’s confession) on which Jesus built (still building) His church?

I think that St Peter’s confession of faith is the rock upon which Christ built His Church.

 

[joe370]

I think that St Peter’s confession of faith is the rock upon which Christ built His Church.

Why not both? Do you disagree with the ECFs? I am just trying to meet you half way.

St. John Chrysostom:

“Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received the revelation not from man but from the Father…this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean t**he unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, **the great apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey.” (De Eleemos III, 4, vol II, 298[300])

He speaks from this time lowly things, on His way to His passion, that He might show His humanity. For He that hath built His Church upon Peter’s confession, and has so fortified it, that ten thousand dangers and deaths are not to prevail over it.

 

[Mickey]

Why not both? Do you disagree with the ECFs? I am just trying to meet you half way.

Well…I already stated that it is obvious that you do not separate someone from their confession. But it is that very confession of faith that the Church is founded upon.

 

[joe370]

Well…I already stated that it is obvious that you do not separate someone from their confession. But it is that very confession of faith that the Church is founded upon.

Agreed.

Again, why not believe both? Do you disagree with the ECFs such as St. John Chrysostom? Why embrace one of his quotes as truth and not the other?

St. John Chrysostom:

“Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received the revelation not from man but from the Father…this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean the unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey.” (De Eleemos III, 4, vol II, 298[300])

He speaks from this time lowly things, on His way to His passion, that He might show His humanity.** For He that hath built His Church upon Peter’s confession**, and has so fortified it, that ten thousand dangers and deaths are not to prevail over it.

 

[Mickey]

Agreed.

Again, why not believe both? Do you disagree with the ECFs such as St. John Chrysostom? Why embrace one of his quotes as truth and not the other?

Who says I disagree with St John. I believe he is saying exactly what I stated. St Peter confessed the true faith…the confession of faith upon which the Church is built.

There is no doubt that he sends accolades of praise upon the great apostle St Peter. Then he tells us that the Church is built upon his confession.

If we say to ourselves ’ You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ then we too become Peter, for whoever is united to Christ becomes Peter.
Origen

 

[joe370]

Mickey;10211428]Who says I disagree with St John. I believe he is saying exactly what I stated. St Peter confessed the true faith…the confession of faith upon which the Church is built.

You are agreeing with St. John regarding one quote. You are disagreeing with St,. John regarding the other quote.

Jesus called Simon, Rock. St. John Chrysostom called him the unshakable Rock. Do you agree with his statement?

“Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received the revelation not from man but from the Father…this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean the unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey.” (De Eleemos III, 4, vol II, 298[300])

 

[ConstantineTG]

It stands and falls on the perceived authority of who then? I thought it was each presiding bishop of each self-governing church? In order for truth to be discerned e.g. the early councils, some level of authority, in terms of settling disputes, must be used - right?

That is why I am saying “perceived”. If the Ecumenical Patriarch is heretic, so what? If the Patriarch of Moscow is heretic, so what? Try opening a thread here on CAF asking about certain questionable acts of any Pope in history and people will rush in with buttered up versions of what happened, it is as if the Pope can do no wrong and if he did, its over for the Church. And precisely why it is not a big deal in Orthodoxy, though certain bishops play certain roles, they are all equal. There is no one episcopal office that defines Orthodoxy, unlike the Papacy.

 

[livingwordunity]

For Holy Scripture and Early Church Fathers on the Primacy of Peter see the following website: ScriptureCatholic.

I only posted the link because the list of scriptural evidence and number of ECF quotes which support the primacy of Peter was too long fit in one post.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If Christ wanted full democracy, as u believe, he would never of named Simon PETER, called him the ROCK, or specially groomed Peter for the leadership spot.

Good ideas alone don’t make ur case …w/o scripture to back u up …which they don’t .

You’re confusing leadership with authority. If you and a bunch of friends went out and you let one person decide where to eat, does that mean that person has authority over the whole group? I think its sad that Catholics have a view of St. Peter’s role as nothing but a position of authority. It is not. God is the only authority. St. Peter is the leader, no question about that. Any Orthodox who denies it is overly polemic. But leadership doesn’t mean subjugation of the other Apostles, it does not mean he is above everyone else.