Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

  • Thread starter Thread starter GodHeals
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I agree that Peter was not granted authority to rule the other apostles. Another example of reading something into scripture that isn’t there: Ecumenical Councils, and yet we see them in Christian history. Not trying to make a point about anything; it just popped into my mind as I was typing.
Yes we do. The council held in Jerusalem…over what to do in matters relating to the Gentiles. NUMERO 1 / Jerusalem Council …first in a long list.

On second reading … I’m not positive you were suggesting they weren’t in scripture…
 
…] Just that there is one in particular who rules over all
You are, of course, entitled to this opinion; is this how the Fathers have understood this event, however? It doesn’t appear to be so. From St. Cyril’s commentary on Luke, we learn the following:

*Now it was from an unprofitable love of glory, the root of which is pride, that this vain and senseless ambition had, so to speak, shot up. For the very fact of wishing at all to be sot over others, and to strive for this end, renders a man liable to be justly blamed: though, on the other hand, it is not absolutely destitute of that which may fitly be praised. For to be exalted in virtue is worthy of all estimation: but those who would attain to it must be of modest mind, and possess such humbleness of feeling as to abandon out of love to the brethren all idea of preeminence. And such the blessed Paul would also have us be, thus writing, “Consider as regards your companions, that in honour they are better than you.” For so to feel is highly worthy of the saints, and renders them glorious, and makes our piety to God more worthy of honour: it tears the net of the devil’s malice, and breaks his manifold snares, and rescues us from the pitfalls of depravity: and finally, it perfects us in the likeness of Christ the Saviour of us all. For listen how He sets Himself before us as the pattern of a humble mind, and of a will not set on vainglory: for "Learn, He says, of Me, Who am meek and lowly in heart. …] The Saviour then forewarned him [Peter] what would have been the result had he been yielded up to Satan’s temptation: but at the same time He offers him the word of consolation, and says, “And do you also hereafter, when converted, strengthen your brethren:” that is, be the support, and instructor and teacher of those who draw near to Me by faith. And moreover, admire the beautiful skill of the passage, and the surpassing greatness of the divine gentleness! For, lest his impending fall should lead the disciple to desperation, as though he would be expelled from the glories of the apostleship, and |677 his former following (of Christ) lose its reward, because of his proving unable to bear the fear of death, and denying Him, at once Christ fills him with good hope, and grants him the confident assurance that he shall be counted worthy of the promised blessings, and gather the fruits of steadfastness. For He says, “And do you also, when converted, strengthen your brethren.” O what great and incomparable kindness! The disciple had not yet sickened with the malady of faithlessness, and already he has received the medicine of forgiveness: not yet had the sin been committed, and he receives pardon: not yet had he fallen, and the saving hand is held out: not yet had he faltered, and he is confirmed: for “do you, He says, when converted, strengthen your brethren.” So to speak belongs to One Who pardons, and restores him again to apostolic powers.

But Peter, in the ardour of his zeal, made profession of steadfastness and endurance to the last extremity, saying that he would manfully resist the terrors of death, and count nothing of bonds; but in so doing he erred from what was right. For he ought not, when the Saviour told him that he would prove weak to have contradicted Him, loudly protesting the contrary; for the Truth could not lie: but rather he ought to have asked strength of Him, that either he might not suffer this, or be rescued immediately from harm. But, as I have already said, being fervent in spirit, and warm in his love towards Christ, and of unrestrainable zeal in rightly performing those duties which become a disciple in his attendance upon his Master, he declares that he will endure to the last extremity: but he was rebuked for foolishly speaking against what was foreknown, and for his unreasonable haste in contradicting the Saviour’s words. For this reason He says, “Verily I tell you, that the cock shall not crow to-night, until you have thrice denied Me.” And this proved true. Let us not therefore think highly of ourselves, even if we see ourselves greatly distinguished for our virtues: rather let us offer up the praises of our thanksgivings to Christ Who redeems us, and Who also it is that grants us even the desire to be able to act rightly: by Whom and with Whom to God the Father be praise and dominion, with the Holy Spirit, for over and ever, Amen.*
So it seems that the Fathers understood the “singling out” of St. Peter to be a means by which he was restored to apostleship in light of his great error in denying Christ. St. Cyril does call him “the foremost”, but in context of the sermon it would be incredibly ridiculous to assert that this shows that St. Peter’s successors in Rome have temporal power or final say over any others, when St. Cyril repeats over and over that such an ambitious idea is unprofitable and not fitting the apostles’ mission (and if St. Cyril says this of the apostles, I very much doubt he would change his tune for any modern patriarch, whether in Rome or anywhere else).
 
{ Just that there is one in particular who rules over all } This was Christ right? 😉
 
You are, of course, entitled to this opinion; is this how the Fathers have understood this event, however? It doesn’t appear to be so. From St. Cyril’s commentary on Luke, we learn the following:

Now it was from an unprofitable love of glory, the root of which is pride, that this vain and senseless ambition had, so to speak, shot up. For the very fact of wishing at all to be sot over others, and to strive for this end, renders a man liable to be justly blamed: though, on the other hand, it is not absolutely destitute of that which may fitly be praised. For to be exalted in virtue is worthy of all estimation: but those who would attain to it must be of modest mind, and possess such humbleness of feeling as to abandon out of love to the brethren all idea of preeminence. And such the blessed Paul would also have us be, thus writing, “Consider as regards your companions, that in honour they are better than you.” For so to feel is highly worthy of the saints, and renders them glorious, and makes our piety to God more worthy of honour: it tears the net of the devil’s malice, and breaks his manifold snares, and rescues us from the pitfalls of depravity: and finally, it perfects us in the likeness of Christ the Saviour of us all. For listen how He sets Himself before us as the pattern of a humble mind, and of a will not set on vainglory: for "Learn, He says, of Me, Who am meek and lowly in heart. …] The Saviour then forewarned him [Peter] what would have been the result had he been yielded up to Satan’s temptation: but at the same time He offers him the word of consolation, and says, “And do you also hereafter, when converted, strengthen your brethren:” that is, be the support, and instructor and teacher of those who draw near to Me by faith. And moreover, admire the beautiful skill of the passage, and the surpassing greatness of the divine gentleness! For, lest his impending fall should lead the disciple to desperation, as though he would be expelled from the glories of the apostleship, and |677 his former following (of Christ) lose its reward, because of his proving unable to bear the fear of death, and denying Him, at once Christ fills him with good hope, and grants him the confident assurance that he shall be counted worthy of the promised blessings, and gather the fruits of steadfastness. For He says, “And do you also, when converted, strengthen your brethren.” O what great and incomparable kindness! The disciple had not yet sickened with the malady of faithlessness, and already he has received the medicine of forgiveness: not yet had the sin been committed, and he receives pardon: not yet had he fallen, and the saving hand is held out: not yet had he faltered, and he is confirmed: for “do you, He says, when converted, strengthen your brethren.” So to speak belongs to One Who pardons, and restores him again to apostolic powers.

But Peter, in the ardour of his zeal, made profession of steadfastness and endurance to the last extremity, saying that he would manfully resist the terrors of death, and count nothing of bonds; but in so doing he erred from what was right. For he ought not, when the Saviour told him that he would prove weak to have contradicted Him, loudly protesting the contrary; for the Truth could not lie: but rather he ought to have asked strength of Him, that either he might not suffer this, or be rescued immediately from harm. But, as I have already said, being fervent in spirit, and warm in his love towards Christ, and of unrestrainable zeal in rightly performing those duties which become a disciple in his attendance upon his Master, he declares that he will endure to the last extremity: but he was rebuked for foolishly speaking against what was foreknown, and for his unreasonable haste in contradicting the Saviour’s words. For this reason He says, “Verily I tell you, that the cock shall not crow to-night, until you have thrice denied Me.” And this proved true. Let us not therefore think highly of ourselves, even if we see ourselves greatly distinguished for our virtues: rather let us offer up the praises of our thanksgivings to Christ Who redeems us, and Who also it is that grants us even the desire to be able to act rightly: by Whom and with Whom to God the Father be praise and dominion, with the Holy Spirit, for over and ever, Amen.
So it seems
that the Fathers understood the “singling out” of St. Peter to be a means by which he was restored to apostleship in light of his great error in denying Christ. [snip for space]

  1. ]Peter never lost his apostleship
    ]Bottomline, as you can see, Peter didn’t seek authority, he didn’t usurp authority, he didn’t make himself the leader. Jesus did that for Peter. Which means the Father is the one who selected Peter. The apostles otoh were in an argument over who is greatest among THEM because Satan was sifting them over authority
    , and we know Satan opposes Jesus on everything. That includes Jesus choice for leader of the apostles. And guess what, Satan is still sifting people over the same issue today. Those who are united to Peter v those who aren’t.

    So

    circa the same time as St Cyril, St Ephrem the Syrian also writes as well

    St Ephrem, Doctor of the Church

    Ephrem the Syrian, on Peter syrianchurch.org/Articles/PrimacyofStPeter.htm
    Benedict XV 1920 on Ephrem ewtn.com/library/encyc/b15prapp.htm notice in footnotes the other ECF’s quoted
 
Just out of curiosity, if the Pope has the charism of infallibility (not a question about primacy I am assuming the Pope to have it), why are there so many restrictions on it and why are these restrictions so opaque that there are only two agreed instances of this charism being used? I have a hard time rationalizing the idea that the Holy Spirit gives the Pope infallible powers when he completes the infallibility checklist of speaking ex cathedra.
 
*]Peter never lost his apostleship
Nobody ever said he did. Not me, and certainly not St. Cyril. What St. Cyril did say, and what I was referencing, is this: “O what great and incomparable kindness! The disciple had not yet sickened with the malady of faithlessness, and already he has received the medicine of forgiveness: not yet had the sin been committed, and he receives pardon: not yet had he fallen, and the saving hand is held out: not yet had he faltered, and he is confirmed: for “do you, He says, when converted, strengthen your brethren.” So to speak belongs to One Who pardons, and restores him again to apostolic powers.” (Emphasis added.)
Bottomline, as you can see, Peter didn’t seek authority, he didn’t usurp authority, he didn’t make himself the leader.
I agree. The question is what was the nature of his leadership. The Latin Church and the Orthodox disagree on this question.
Jesus did that for Peter. Which means the Father is the one who selected Peter. The apostles otoh were in an argument over who is greatest among THEM because Satan was sifting* them* over authority, and we know Satan opposes Jesus on everything. That includes Jesus choice for leader of the apostles. And guess what, Satan is still sifting people over the same issue today. Those who are united to Peter v those who aren’t.
Alright. I am in union with HH Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas, Patriarch of the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch, which is one of several churches that has it roots in that historic city in which the most blessed saints and apostles Peter and Paul preached and established the Church in that part of Asia. In the Syriac Orthodox tradition, St. Peter is recorded as the first in the line of Patriarchs of the Church, having served from its founding c.37 AD until the mid-50s.
So

circa the same time as St Cyril, St Ephrem the Syrian also writes as well

St Ephrem, Doctor of the Church

Ephrem the Syrian, on Peter syrianchurch.org/Articles/PrimacyofStPeter.htm
There is no problem with any of this. All the Orthodox believe in and agree on the primacy of St. Peter among the apostles. As for uniquely Latin claims that are argued to follow from that…

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/33030611.jpg
 
Just out of curiosity, if the Pope has the charism of infallibility (not a question about primacy I am assuming the Pope to have it), why are there so many restrictions on it and why are these restrictions so opaque that there are only two agreed instances of this charism being used? I have a hard time rationalizing the idea that the Holy Spirit gives the Pope infallible powers when he completes the infallibility checklist of speaking ex cathedra.
Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers responds to your point of 2 instances. jimmyakin.com/2004/06/two_instances_o.html

As far as a definition of an infallible statement


  1. *
    • we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
    • when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
    • that is, when,
      1. in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
      2. in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
      3. he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
      4. he possesses,
      5. by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
      6. that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
      7. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.
      papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm

      IOW, 3 conditions need to be met
      • “Teach and Define” are important words to look for in the teaching,
      • a teaching must be a doctrine on “faith or morals” not on any other subject.
      • and a teaching *must be held by the entire Church *
      as an aside, disciplines don’t count 😉
 
Just out of curiosity, if the Pope has the charism of infallibility (not a question about primacy I am assuming the Pope to have it), why are there so many restrictions on it and why are these restrictions so opaque that there are only two agreed instances of this charism being used? I have a hard time rationalizing the idea that the Holy Spirit gives the Pope infallible powers when he completes the infallibility checklist of speaking ex cathedra.
Just out of curiosity, if the Pope has the charism of infallibility (not a question about primacy I am assuming the Pope to have it), why are there so many restrictions on it and why are these restrictions so opaque that there are only two agreed instances of this charism being used? I have a hard time rationalizing the idea that the Holy Spirit gives the Pope infallible powers when he completes the infallibility checklist of speaking ex cathedra.
It isn’t a “power” per se - but rather a negative protection for the good of the Church. It doesn’t promise the Church or Pope inspiration, in the sense that the Sacred Writers possessed when writing Scripture; it is simply a promise that the Holy Spirit will prevent the Church from binding the faithful to error. We don’t know the exact mechanisms of infallibility. Would God simply allow a pope about to define heresy die? Would he bring someone into his path to show him the error of his way? We don’t know - all we know is that we can trust that the Lord will not allow His Church to fall into error in matters of faith and morals.

The gift of infallibility was entrusted to the entire Church by the promise of Christ that the gates of Hades shall not prevail and Our Lord’s prayer that St. Peter’s faith would not fail. We shouldn’t separate the pope’s exercise of the gift of infallibility from that of the Church’s - it is one and the same gift. The unique papal exercise of infallibility is rare because it is an extraordinary exercise of the gift and not the normative means by which the Church functions. I believe that Our Lord gave St. Peter and his successors this share in the gift of infallibility as a final check/balance in the event that the Church could not or would not avail itself of the normative exercises of infallibility. It is not something to be thrown around lightly - our faith is not limited to “infallible declarations”. The Church exercises infallibility in a few different ways:
  1. The Ordinary Magisterium - the consistent witness of the popes and bishops down through the centuries. Catholics believe that if the successors of the Apostles have consistently taught a doctrine over the course of the past 2000 years, it must be part of the original deposit of faith and thus infallible. As the gates of Hades will not prevail, we cannot believe that the magisterium (pope and bishops) has consistently taught error - even if a particular tenant has not been dogmatically clarified. An example would be birth control, which has never been defined as a dogma, but the faithful are bound to believe that the use of artificial birth control is immoral as that has been the consistent witness of the magisterium for 2000 years (most recently as articulated by Pope Paul VI who cites the 1900 years of Tradition that came before him).
  2. The Extraordinary Magisterium - at times the consistent witness of the ordinary magisterium may be challenged by many or be unclear to some in the Church. The Church may then, to settle or clarify a matter once and for all, invoke the extraordinary magisterium…I.e. declare a dogma. This is normatively exercised by the entire magisterium - the bishops of the Catholic Church united in solemn council with and under the primacy of the Pope. In rare cases, it can also be excerised by the Pope himself, but even then the Pope does not exercise infallibility in a vacuum but rather draws from the Ordinary Magisterium (see #1). In the case of both the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, the two dogmas that all agree were infallibly defined by the Pope, he drew not only from the consistent witness of the Magisterium, but also consulted his brother bishops throughout the world.
 
The door is always open for Rome to return to the fold and take Her place in the same capacity that She held for most of the first millennium. 👍
I’m fine with the EO churches submitting themselves to the Pope as they had done before the schism. 👍
 
I’m fine with the EO churches submitting themselves to the Pope as they had done before the schism. 👍
Funny comment, because this thread has gone for 30 pages and yet no one has ever proven that the Eastern Churches ever submitted to Rome’s administration.
 
I’m fine with the EO churches submitting themselves to the Pope as they had done before the schism. 👍
The Pope does not ask the EO churches to submit to him. Within an Eastern context, that comes across as an ugly concept; rather, he invites them to share the holy eucharistic sacrifice with him as their elder brother in the faith and, when necessary, to guide them by word and example. Both Blessed John Paul and Pope Benedict have made it clear that Rome does not expect anything of the Eastern Orthodox that they did not accept before the Schism. Did the Bishop of Rome exercise primacy as the “eldest” brother among the bishops, as the final court of appeal in matters of faith and discipline, and as the chief champion of orthodoxy? Yes. Did the Bishop of Rome micromanage and administrate the internal affairs of the Eastern Churches? No - and why would he want to? Their own bishops carry that mandate as true vicars of Christ (see my catechism quotes earlier in this thread). The Pope is there as a focal point of unity - and presides over the churches in charity - but he does not lord it over as the Gentiles do. The bishops of the Eastern Churches are not bishops of the Latin Church - they’ve always enjoyed autonomy.
 
Yes we do. The council held in Jerusalem…over what to do in matters relating to the Gentiles. NUMERO 1 / Jerusalem Council …first in a long list.

On second reading … I’m not positive you were suggesting they weren’t in scripture…
I was not suggesting scripture. Acts…🙂
 
Nobody ever said he did. Not me, and certainly not St. Cyril.
When you wrote the following, I understood you to say he did lose his apostleship.
40.png
dzheremi:
So it seems that the Fathers understood the “singling out” of St. Peter to be a means by which he was restored to apostleship in light of his great error in denying Christ. [snip for space]
d:
What St. Cyril did say, [snip for space] So to speak belongs to One Who pardons, and restores him again to apostolic powers." (Emphasis added.)
He never lost his apostolic powers.
d:
I agree. The question is what was the nature of his leadership. The Latin Church and the Orthodox disagree on this question.
the Catholic Church, has been here since the 1st century and is the Church of the creed. As the chair of Peter, she has consistently understood her primacy of leadership over the the entire Church from the beginning. I’ll let Bp John, a Melkite Catholic from Antioch as well, give their understanding of the papacy.
melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/how-do-the-popes-encyclicals-and-teachings-impact-on-the-melkites note the Eastern canon laws mentioned

melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/are-we-orthodox-united-with-rome note code of canon law 43
d:
Alright. I am in union with HH Mor Ignatius Zakka I I was, Patriarch of the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch, which is one of several churches that has it roots in that historic city in which the most blessed saints and apostles Peter and Paul preached and established the Church in that part of Asia.
Since division as you know is condemned in scripture, that can only leave one Church, not many, in accord with Jesus prayer, “that they all maybe one as you Father and I are one”.

From the link I provided Re: quotes from Ephrem
:

Afrahat & Ephrem, all emphasis is mine

Again he says in his commentary on Deutronomy that Moses brought forth water from “rock” (Kepha) for the people and Jesus sent Simon Kepha to carry his teachings among nations. Our Lord accepted him and made him the foundation of the Church and called him Kepha. When he speaks about transfiguration of Christ he calls him Simon Peter, the foundation of the Church.

Ephrem In a Hymn on Peter he writes:

“Blessed are you Simon Kepha

Who holds the keys which the Spirit forges

Great is the word and ineffable

That could stand bind and loose above and below

Blessed are thou who wert as the head

And as the tounge of the body of brotheren

Through Simon was heard the Revelation from the Father

Through the Rock unshakable”

(De Virginitate15.6,7)

In Armenian version of De Virginitate records Peter the Rock shunned honour Who was the head of the Apostles,

In a MEMRA of Efrem found in Holy Week Liturgy points to the importance of Peter:

“The Simon, my disciple, have I set as foundation of the Holy Church,

I called thee Kepha that thou mightest bear all buildings

Thou art the overseer (baharo) of those who build for me the Church on earth

If they build anything hateful the foundation restrains them

Thou art the foundation-head of my disciples

By thee I will give drink to all nations thou hast the sweetness of life which I will give

I have given thee keys of my kingdom

Behold. Thou rulest over all my possession.”

Both Afrahat and Ephrem represent the authentic tradition of the Syrian Church.
 
The Pope does not ask the EO churches to submit to him. Within an Eastern context, that comes across as an ugly concept; rather, he invites them to share the holy eucharistic sacrifice with him as their elder brother in the faith and, when necessary, to guide them by word and example. Both Blessed John Paul and Pope Benedict have made it clear that Rome does not expect anything of the Eastern Orthodox that they did not accept before the Schism. Did the Bishop of Rome exercise primacy as the “eldest” brother among the bishops, as the final court of appeal in matters of faith and discipline, and as the chief champion of orthodoxy? Yes. Did the Bishop of Rome micromanage and administrate the internal affairs of the Eastern Churches? No - and why would he want to? Their own bishops carry that mandate as true vicars of Christ (see my catechism quotes earlier in this thread). The Pope is there as a focal point of unity - and presides over the churches in charity - but he does not lord it over as the Gentiles do. The bishops of the Eastern Churches are not bishops of the Latin Church - they’ve always enjoyed autonomy.
Are you familiar with the history of the Melkites? Bp John answers some questions re: what it means to be in union with the pope

melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/how-do-the-popes-encyclicals-and-teachings-impact-on-the-melkites

melkite.org/eparchy/bishop-john/are-we-orthodox-united-with-rome
 
That was my whole point. The Pope is teaching the truth, the Eastern Patriarchs were teaching heresy. Why didn’t the pope declare a dogma the 2 wills of Christ? Why didn’t he declare the Council of Lateran at Ecumenical? Why didn’t he tell the Patriarchs to get in line?

This is solid proof that infallibility and supremacy never existed in the First Millennium.
Sorry, I’m getting in here a little late, but its for the same reasons St. Leo said the Council of Chalcedon was a good idea even though he already definitively judged the issue:
St. Leo I:
On the return of our brothers and fellow priests, whom the See of the blessed Peter sent to the holy council, we ascertained, beloved, the victory you and we together had won by assistance from on high over the blasphemy of Nestorius, as well as over the madness of Eutyches. Wherefore we make our boast in the Lord, singing with the prophet: “our help is in the name of the Lord, who has made heaven and earth :” who has suffered us to sustain no harm in the person of our brethren, but has corroborated by the irrevocable assent of the whole brotherhood what He had already laid down through our ministry: to show that, what had been first formulated by the foremost See of Christendom, and then received by the judgment of the whole Christian world, had truly proceeded from Himself: that in this, too, the members may be at one with the Head. And herein our cause for rejoicing grows greater when we see that the more fiercely the foe assailed Christ’s servants, the more did he afflict himself. For lest the assent of other Sees to that which the Lord of all has appointed to take precedence of the rest might seem mere complaisance, or lest any other evil suspicion might creep in, some were found to dispute our decisions before they were finally accepted. And while some, instigated by the author of the disagreement, rush forward into a warfare of contradictions, a greater good results through his fall under the guiding hand of the Author of all goodness. For the gifts of God’s grace are sweeter to us when they are gained with mighty efforts: and uninterrupted peace is wont to seem a lesser good than one that is restored by labours. Moreover, the Truth itself shines more brightly, and is more bravely maintained when what the Faith had already taught is afterwards confirmed by further inquiry. And still further, the good name of the priestly office gains much in lustre where the authority of the highest is preserved without it being thought that the liberty of the lower ranks has been at all infringed. And the result of a discussion contributes to the greater glory of God when the debaters exert themselves with confidence in overcoming the gainsayers: that what of itself is shown wrong may not seem to be passed over in prejudicial silence.
newadvent.org/fathers/3604120.htm

Again, it’s the same reason why St. John Chrysostom says St. Peter didn’t make a decision unilaterally, even though that was his perogative:
St. John Chrysostom:
Then after the event, he appositely brings in the Prophet, saying, “For it is written in the Book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein” Acts 1:20 Psalm 69:25: this is said of the field and the dwelling: And his bishopric let another take; that is, his office, his priesthood. So that this, he says, is not my counsel, but His who has foretold these things. For, that he may not seem to be undertaking a great thing, and just such as Christ had done, he adduces the Prophet as a witness. “Wherefore it behooves of these men which have companied with us all the time.” Acts 1:21 Why does he make it their business too? That the matter might not become an object of strife, and they might not fall into contention about it. For if the Apostles themselves once did this, much more might those. This he ever avoids. Wherefore at the beginning he said, “Men and brethren. It behooves” to choose from among you. He defers the decision to the whole body, thereby both making the elected objects of reverence and himself keeping clear of all invidiousness with regard to the rest. For such occasions always give rise to great evils. Now that some one must needs be appointed, he adduces the prophet as witness: but from among what persons: “Of these,” he says, “which have companied with us all the time.” To have said, the worthy must present themselves, would have been to insult the others; but now he refers the matter to length of time; for he says not simply, “These who have companied with us,” but, “all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John unto that same day that He was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of His resurrection” Acts 1:22: that their college (ὁ χορὸς) might not be left mutilated. Then why did it not rest with Peter to make the election himself: what was the motive? This; that he might not seem to bestow it of favor.
newadvent.org/fathers/210103.htm
 
Schism hater;10195001]Well, as to the latter, don’t discount political survival as a motivation also.
I think you’ve idealized the first millenium somewhat (as do many Orthodox also). I don’t get that the East consistently regarded the agreement with Rome as essential to Church unity.
Agreed. After all, they too were endowed with authority back then, in their respective districts, just as catholic bishops are today, in their respective districts, all over the world. The bishop of Rome did not get involved in every problem that surfaced; that would have been insane and a logistical nightmare. Eastern bishops/leaders, in their districts would have worked at resolving problems on their own, I would think. Catholics do not believe that eastern leaders, for the first thousand years, when faced with doctrinal discord, needed to immediately run to Rome for guidance; quite the opposite, based on what I have read.
They certainly regarded it as deisrable, as most Orthodox do now, I think. I certainly see it as desirable. You can find certain moments, such as the Formula of Hormisdas, where the eastern patriarchs formally signed on to a pretty strong statement of papal primacy which regarded the Pope as an essential symbol of unity, but I don’t think that was a consistent attitude in the East.
👍
The Eastern attitude, as I see it, is that true untiy exists when there is a substantive untiy in the essentials of the faith. Do we have that now? If all the Eastern patriarchs suddenly declared unity with Rome, would there be true unity? I don’t think so, because we are not completely unified in the substance of the Faith (altho I think we are closer than many Orthodox will allow). The bishop of Rome may indeed be a visible symbol of unity, but the symbol can’t take precedence over the reality, can it? I guess what I’m saying is that a formal union without true unity of faith would not be enough. That being said, I will not consider the Church to be whole until all the ancient patriachates are reunited.
Seems reasonable. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top