Did the prophets use riddles, proverbs and parables?

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I need help in discerning to what degree the prophets used parables, riddles, and proverbs in their writings.

To what degree and where did Moses use parables, riddles, and proverbs?

I know that Gregory the Great taught the Moses had a prophetic vision of the past when he wrote Genesis.

What do the Fathers teach?

What did the Scholastics teach?

What does the Magisterium teach?

Thanks!
 
rcjones

Thanks!

I am going to you site in one second.

I love the name.

Again, thanks!
 
rcjones

Your site is too powerful for me at this time.

Thanks!

Do you have the time to answer my question?

Again, thanks!
 
To what degree and where did Moses use parables, riddles, and proverbs?
Every verse of Moses is a riddle. Chapter 1 is a table of contents to the rest of the Bible, and in itself is a picture of Christ.

Day 1 refers to the story of the Fall through Gen 5.
Day 2 refers to the Promise given to Noah.
Day 3 refers to Abraham through Joseph.
Day 4 Refers to Israel in the Wilderness
Day 5 refers to Israel in the Promised Land
Day 6 is the life of Christ
Day 7is Christ in resurrection and the church as the man and bride.

Each of the periods referred to are themselves pictures of Christ wherein the pattern of Fall, Promise, Desolation, Renewed Word, Judgement, Reconciliation, Fruitfulness is repeated.

Within each period the pattern is repeated again many times in the lives of the people. It is all in riddle.

Gen 3:21 says in riddle: And God caused Christ to die and he died, and he married s certain limping side, and delivered mankind.

The apostle read the scriptures this way which is why Matthew can say it was prophesied that Jesus would be called a Nazarene… he fulfills the law of the Nazarite. Paul can say the Melchizedek as a type is the meat of the gospel. Paul in Hebrews can say that law “having a shadow” … since the shadow is the pictures of Christ hidden in riddle. It is why John the Baptist can be called Elijah, and why we have just a memory of the type in garments as works, air as spirit, water as the word, etc.

After about Clement it appears they lost the ability to discern them directly and only had a memory of it. This is probably due to the widespread use of the Greek rather than Hebrew scriptures.

The Quadriga is also a memory of it.

So Moses and the prophets used it in every verse. The early church knew it, and slowly it devolved into allegory.

The magesterium still teaches the Quadriga.
 
rcjones

Thanks!

As you can understand, I have many questions.

I will return with more questions.

Thanks!
 
Jim,

Regarding to parables, look at Isaiah 5. You’ll find that this parable is easily recognizable. You’ll also understand how Jesus’ parable in Matthew’s Gospel would have been immediately evident to the Scribes and Pharisees
1 Let me now sing of my friend, my friend’s song concerning his vineyard. My friend had a vineyard on a fertile hillside; 2 He spaded it, cleared it of stones, and planted the choicest vines; Within it he built a watchtower, and hewed out a wine press. Then he looked for the crop of grapes, but what it yielded was wild grapes. 3 Now, inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard: 4 What more was there to do for my vineyard that I had not done? Why, when I looked for the crop of grapes, did it bring forth wild grapes? 5 Now, I will let you know what I mean to do to my vineyard: Take away its hedge, give it to grazing, break through its wall, let it be trampled! 6 Yes, I will make it a ruin: it shall not be pruned or hoed, but overgrown with thorns and briers; I will command the clouds not to send rain upon it. 7 The vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are his cherished plant; He looked for judgment, but see, bloodshed! for justice, but hark, the outcry!
 
Also, look mainly at the prophets. They often spoke in riddles and parables.

One prophet (I can’t remember his name) was instructed by God to marry a prostitute. The prostitute resembled Israel who followed false Gods.

I think it was Jeremiah who broke the clay jug to symbolize how God would break Judah (using Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar).
 
Every verse of Moses is a riddle. Chapter 1 is a table of contents to the rest of the Bible, and in itself is a picture of Christ.

Day 1 refers to the story of the Fall through Gen 5.
Day 2 refers to the Promise given to Noah.
Day 3 refers to Abraham through Joseph.
Day 4 Refers to Israel in the Wilderness
Day 5 refers to Israel in the Promised Land
Day 6 is the life of Christ
Day 7is Christ in resurrection and the church as the man and bride.
Jim, for a more Orthodox view, you might find that in the first three days God creates Realms
  1. Light and Dark
  2. Sky and Water
  3. Land and Sea
Then in the next three days, God creates Rulers of these realms.
4) Sun and Moon to have dominion over the Light and Dark
5) Birds and Fish to have dominion over skies and waters.
6) Man to have dominion over the animals and vegetation.

In other words, God created order.

Please understand that this is the Reader’s Digest version of Creation.
 
Jim, for a more Orthodox view, you might find that in the first three days God creates Realms
  1. Light and Dark
  2. Sky and Water
  3. Land and Sea
Then in the next three days, God creates Rulers of these realms.
4) Sun and Moon to have dominion over the Light and Dark
5) Birds and Fish to have dominion over skies and waters.
6) Man to have dominion over the animals and vegetation.

In other words, God created order.

Please understand that this is the Reader’s Digest version of Creation.
The sensus plenior does not contradict the literal. As the Jews would say… The pashat never loses it’s meaning.

And I think I am in good company:

“Holy Writ by the manner of its speech transcends every science, because in one and the same sentence, while it describes a fact, it reveals a mystery.”
(Moral. xx, 1; Pope Gregory, 540-604 AD)

The author of Holy Writ is God, in whose power it is to signify His meaning, not by words only (as man also can do), but also by things themselves. So, whereas in every other science things are signified by words, this science has the property, that the things signified by the words have themselves also a signification. Therefore that first signification whereby words signify things belongs to the first sense, the historical or literal. That signification whereby things signified by words have themselves also a signification is called the spiritual sense, which is based on the literal, and presupposes it.

Summa Theologica, Article 10 by Thomas Aquinas
 
The sensus plenior does not contradict the literal. As the Jews would say… The pashat never loses it’s meaning.

And I think I am in good company:

“Holy Writ by the manner of its speech transcends every science, because in one and the same sentence, while it describes a fact, it reveals a mystery.”
(Moral. xx, 1; Pope Gregory, 540-604 AD)

The author of Holy Writ is God, in whose power it is to signify His meaning, not by words only (as man also can do), but also by things themselves. So, whereas in every other science things are signified by words, this science has the property, that the things signified by the words have themselves also a signification. Therefore that first signification whereby words signify things belongs to the first sense, the historical or literal. That signification whereby things signified by words have themselves also a signification is called the spiritual sense, which is based on the literal, and presupposes it.

Summa Theologica, Article 10 by Thomas Aquinas
RC, I’m not disputing that there is only one way to interpret each Scripture. But your sense of “sensious plenur” has a rather unique view, my friend.

I wanted to guide our good Jim Baur down a more well-traveled path! Let the children learn to walk before they run, would you say? 😉
 
RC, I’m not disputing that there is only one way to interpret each Scripture. But your sense of “sensious plenur” has a rather unique view, my friend.

I wanted to guide our good Jim Baur down a more well-traveled path! Let the children learn to walk before they run, would you say? 😉
I’ll take that as a compliment 😉

But if I ever say anything that contradicts scriptures or the teaching of the church I hope you will call it to my attention.
 
rcjones:

Could you help me comprehend your seven days teaching with Biblical qoutes?

Thanks!

I mean this, thanks!
 
Could you help me comprehend your seven days teaching with Biblical qoutes?
I would be happy to if it were possible.

Solving riddles does not lend itself to proof-texting like simple arguments over doctrine. A riddle by nature is unknowable by the contents of the riddle itself. You must know the trick in the riddle or know the solution then apply it back. So if someone tells you the answer to the riddle, you either ‘get it’ or you don’t. If you don’t get it, then drawing the picture so that you do can be very complex. It can be done, but it can be very involved.

So what do I mean by the trick? When is the ocean friendly? Someone who doesn’t know the trick may say “When it is shallow or calm.” The trick is that the riddle is not asking for a real condition, it is simple word play. The answer involves a word that may be used as a noun or a verb and the swapping of it produces a humorous result. Now I have explained the trick and you still don’t know the solution.

It is friendly when it waves at you. Now you get it or you don’t. If you still don’t get it, trying to explain it will be nearly impossible. Though you can understand that the word has multiple meanings, some cannot get past the literalist approach and will insist that the ocean does not have hands to wave at you. But this is the nature of riddle. It is word play. It is a genre of it’s own.

By some this is viewed as a stupid child’s game unworthy of God and the Bible. It is a child’s game, but it isn’t stupid. Mt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. The Jews call the hidden meaning of scripture “Paradise”. Children recognize riddle because they naturally hear a word with multiple meanings at the same time and often pick the wrong meaning.

I believe the sensus plenior is there so the Jesus as a child would hear the double meanings and know exactly who he was and what he was to do, since he chose not to use his omniscience while in the flesh.

But it is not just simple child’s play it is also a game of God and kings: Pr 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Riddling used to be the pastime of sovereign courts with the wagers being anything up to and including death. God ties his Glory to His ability to conceal a thing. He is wagering that you cannot discover the riddle until He reveals it… which He did in Christ Jesus.

And so he says the wise will seek out his riddles:
Pr 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
Pr 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings (riddles).

If this were a simple riddle, I would be happy to do what you ask. This riddle involves the history in the Bible from Genesis through Rev. being divided into seven parts. Each part has a riddle containing the same pattern or theme that matches the seven days. Then each part is related to each day by a series of other riddles.

The purpose of the web site is to document the very thing that you ask. When that is done, so will the web site. For those who can ‘get it’ a very short conversation explains it such as the ocean waving. For those who don’t and do not wish to dive in to the explanations, there is no way to communicate the idea.

So for the short conversation:
Each period of history contains the same theme starting with a Fall or separation and ending with being fruitful.
Then each period is linked to the day by simple word association.

Day 1 is the separation of Law and Grace and represents “The Fall”
Day 2 is the Promise and is linked by the water and the rainbow
Day 3 is the desolation it is when the wheat and tares grow together Abraham didn’t get the promise yet, Isaac died relatively desolate, Jacob bore earthly children who then moved to Egypt. It is the idea of mixing. It is tied my mixing and ruling.
Day 4 is Israel in the desert. It is the renewing of the Word. It is tied by the multiple givings of the law by Moses and by Joshua.
Day 5 is Israel in the Promised land. This is the judgment. It is tied by their captivity.
Day 6 is the Life of Jesus. This is reconciliation.
Day 7 is the church which is the fruitful and multiplying.

This riddle is the most complex of any since it spans the whole Bible. I am hoping that those who get it, or almost get it will be willing and able to invest some time in the web site so that they too can see the riddles. So I kinda throw them out as a fishing expedition to see who may still have the childish ability.

The main trick to discerning the riddles is knowing that they all speak of Christ. That it is divine is demonstrated by the humanly impossible task of making them all theologically important statements about Christ, rather than silly accidents of the language such as the ocean waving at you.
 
rcjones

Thank you!

When I get time, I will return to your site.

Again, thank you.

God Bless,

Jim Baur
 
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