Did the Protestant Reformation do anything good?

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In the early stages its debatable for sure.
Yes, but I wasn’t talking about the early stages. The reform that turned out to be lasting (for centuries, still having an effect today), and to which most Catholics seem to be referring on this thread, is that associated with the Council of Trent and the “Counter-Reformation Popes” such as Paul IV.

Edwin
 
That may be true (one of the cardinals advising Charles V at Worms thought so, arguing that only Luther’s sacramental teaching in the Babylonian Captivity was truly heretical), but Pope Leo and many other powerful folks in both the Curia and the universities thought otherwise.

Edwin
Really? Please quote any statement by Leo or any other Pope that any one of Luther’s 95 theses is heretical. Your guess about what they might have** thought **is of no real relevance.
 
No, it was inside the Empire.
I didn’t say it wasn’t. I said it wasn’t in the emperor’s own lands.
You’re right insofar as it had its own prince-bishop. However, it was surrounded by Hapsburg lands
I have two maps of mid-16th century Europe here from two very different sources, and neither of them shows Trent as being “surrounded by Hapsburg lands”.
and had been controlled by the Hapsburgs earlier in the century.
Surely the only relevent matter is who controlled it at the time.
Sovereignty was a complex business in the sixteenth century–not an either/or.
Yes that’s why I said it’s complicated.
Although the Emperor was at least nominally Catholic,

Why the qualifying language? You might as well say that the Pope was at least nominally Catholic. . . .

Because of his anti-Catholic actions at times like the one I mentioned. It would be false to describe Charles V as a steadfastly loyal son of the Church.
That’s a modern stereotype deriving from the much more absolute understanding of sovereignty that prevailed later. Charles V was not a figurehead outside his own lands–he was essentially a constitutional monarch with aspirations to be more. By 1800 the emperors were figureheads, but not in the sixteenth century.
I said he was not much more than a figurehead outside his own lands. If the word “figurehead” strikes you as too modern, you may prefer “acknowledged overlord but who in practical terms rarely if ever exercised, or was able to exercise, power over the local princes”
And more to the point:
a. you couldn’t get to Trent without going through Hapsburg lands;
as I said I disagree
and
b. obviously, the prince-bishop of Trent was a Catholic.
So your claim that Protestants could get to Trent without passing through Catholic-ruled territory remains simply false.
Ok to be pedantic they obviously had to enter Catholic ruled territory when they entered Trent. My point was that they weren’t travelling through hostile countryside which in itself was dangerous in those days.
It’s much more than simplifying–it’s falsifying. It’s not true that most of the princes were Protestant, though certainly a significant number of them were.
OK, you may be right there, I didn’t do a head count.
He also said that he was just finishing what the Catholic Church had begun. In his public statements, Hitler definitely claimed to be Christian. When talking to Protestants, he cited Luther; when talking to Catholics, he cited Catholic anti-Judaism. You can’t consistently take one of these bits of political propaganda as sincere and ignore the others, just because one of them supports your ideological agenda and the others don’t.
I’m not, I’m taking his entire body of words and deeds into account.
He was quoted as saying some such things privately in his later years, yes. As far as I can see, it’s not clear whether Hitler’s claims to be a Christian were purely propaganda, or whether he developed from a heretical, idiosyncratic “Christian” to a supporter of an equally twisted and idiosyncratic version of Nordic paganism or something of that sort.
Hence my careful language. I said that he claimed to be a Christian, which is true. I did not say that he was a Christian, because it all depends on how you define Christian and whether you think his professions were in some twisted sense sincere.
If by his “later years” you mean from the time he became dictator. Certainly he claimed at times to be sympathetic to Christianity, but I am not aware of him ever actually claiming to be a Christian, since he definitively rejected Christianity as an adolescent. Certainly he never practised Christianity and poured scorn on those who did.
I get that, but you were really just trying to denigrate Luther in ways that had nothing to do with the point at issue.
No I wasn’t but granted parts of my rhetorical flourish were not directly relevant to the point.
Anyone who studies the Reformation knows that Luther was a deeply flawed person with a lot of very bad ideas. This does not make the many Lutherans who study the Reformation abandon their beliefs–nor should it.
I wasn’t suggesting that it should.
 
Do you think the Protestant Reformation did anything good? I personally thing it was one of the greatest tragedies in the history of the human race, but could’ve been avoided. And if it were avoided, things would be a lot better off today. Why did it happen, and what could have been done to stop it, and what can be done now to reverse the damages wrought by it?
I think that reformation was useful; it ended or decreased hegemony of the clergy on the Christian religion; which is what Jesus believed in. Jesus was against the hegemony of clergy on the religion; he wanted to keep the religion in secular form; religion has nothing to do or to meddle with the temporal affairs of the societhy; religion is for guidance in matters pertaining to ethical, moral and spiritual matters concering the humanity.
 
Do you think the Protestant Reformation did anything good? I personally thing it was one of the greatest tragedies in the history of the human race, but could’ve been avoided. And if it were avoided, things would be a lot better off today. Why did it happen, and what could have been done to stop it, and what can be done now to reverse the damages wrought by it?
No it did not do anything good. It is as you said, a great tragedy.

But, since God did allow it to happen, then He will bring something good from it. Now we see that at the forefront of Catholic apologetics are Protestant converts.
 
Really? Please quote any statement by Leo or any other Pope that any one of Luther’s 95 theses is heretical. Your guess about what they might have** thought **is of no real relevance.
I’m not guessing. Compare Exsurge Domine with the 95 Theses. Condemned proposition 4 in the former corresponds to theses 14-16 in the latter; proposition 7 with theses 1-2; and proposition 38 with theses 18-19 (this correspondence is particularly exact and obvious); while 17-22 summarizes the basic argument of the theses as a whole–see especially theses 5-13, 20-24, and 31-34. Certainly ED covers more than the Theses, but it clearly condemns a number of them. I will grant that in the usual papal language of the time Leo doesn’t say that they are all heretical, but that they are “either heretical, false, scandalous, or offensive to pious ears, as seductive of simple minds.” However, as Eck pointed out to Luther at Leipzig when Luther tried this dodge with regard to Constance’s condemnation of Hus, clearly Leo didn’t think any of the propositions he included in Exsurge Domine were good and orthodox.

Edwin
 
I didn’t say it wasn’t. I said it wasn’t in the emperor’s own lands.
I have two maps of mid-16th century Europe here from two very different sources, and neither of them shows Trent as being “surrounded by Hapsburg lands”.
Try this one. The bits of Hapsburg lands to the east and south are small and don’t show up on a large-scale map. Even this map is a bit misleading, because it doesn’t count the Duchy of Milan as Hapsburg, which it was at that time. The only place where they could possibly have gotten to Trent without going through Hapsburg territory is the bit on the southeast where the bishopric bordered Venetian territory. Venice had lost this part of its territory earlier, but I think they had regained it at this point (I’m having trouble getting the details from the Internet and don’t have relevant print sources to hand at the moment). So maybe if they went a very long way round they could have come up through Venetian territory and avoided Hapsburg lands. But this is a moot point, since they certainly could not have gotten there without getting through Catholic-ruled territory.

If you can trace a possible journey that only took them through Protestant-ruled territory (which was much sparser at this point than you seem to think), I will nominate you for a prize in creative geography (if there is such a thing).
Surely the only relevent matter is who controlled it at the time.
Not at all, because as far as I can tell the bishop at the time had regained some degree of sovereignty through his close association with the Hapsburgs. So the bishops were still very much dependents/allies of the Hapsburgs. The general question of how much authority the Emperor had outside his own lands thus doesn’t apply here.
Although the Emperor was at least nominally Catholic,Because of his anti-Catholic actions at times like the one I mentioned. It would be false to describe Charles V as a steadfastly loyal son of the Church.
First of all, the sack of Rome was carried out by a mutinous army that was not following Charles’s orders. It was no more directly his fault than the sack of Constantinople in 1204 was directly the Pope’s fault. Like Innocent III in that case, Charles was happy to profit from the event, but he certainly did not order it.

In the second place, given the Pope’s involvement with political and military affairs at the time, one can’t fairly call Charles’s military actions against the Pope “anti-Catholic.” That’s an anachronistic term to use. Many people at the time blamed the Popes for getting involved in military alliances (the League of Cognac at this point). Charles was not challenging the Pope’s authority as successor of Peter–he was engaged in a political conflict with the Pope in the latter’s capacity as an Italian territorial ruler.
I said he was not much more than a figurehead outside his own lands. If the word “figurehead” strikes you as too modern, you may prefer “acknowledged overlord but who in practical terms rarely if ever exercised, or was able to exercise, power over the local princes”
Well, it depends on what kind of power and what princes. Sure, Charles was powerless to arrest Luther in the territory of Elector Frederick. But you’re trying to argue that Charles had no meaningful hegemony over Trent just because at this time Trent was not strictly part of the “Hapbsurg lands,” and that’s just absurd.
as I said I disagree Ok to be pedantic they obviously had to enter Catholic ruled territory when they entered Trent. My point was that they weren’t travelling through hostile countryside which in itself was dangerous in those days.
Yes, but your point is just plain wrong. As I said, I defy you to show me the route they could have taken that wouldn’t have passed through territory hostile to Protestantism.
I’m not, I’m taking his entire body of words and deeds into account. If by his “later years” you mean from the time he became dictator. Certainly he claimed at times to be sympathetic to Christianity, but I am not aware of him ever actually claiming to be a Christian
This website has a number of quotes and seems to have some concern with accuracy. You’re right and that the alleged quotes indicating that he was totally opposed to Christianity begin in 1933. However, the problem is that so much of the evidence depends on things Hitler supposedly said to this or that general or political subordinate or friend/associate. That’s true on both sides. That he publicly claimed to be not only a Christian but a Catholic is certainly true.
since he definitively rejected Christianity as an adolescent.
Evidence for that? I’m not saying that it’s false, and I’m not sure how much it matters. But it seems to me that people make overly confident statements on this matter.

Edwin
 
I think that reformation was useful; it ended or decreased hegemony of the clergy on the Christian religion; which is what Jesus believed in. Jesus was against the hegemony of clergy on the religion; he wanted to keep the religion in secular form; religion has nothing to do or to meddle with the temporal affairs of the societhy; religion is for guidance in matters pertaining to ethical, moral and spiritual matters concering the humanity.
Do you have any evidence supporting your interpretation of Jesus? It goes against what most scholars say, as well as against the mainstream of Christian tradition. In short, it seems to have nothing in its favor except that many modern people would like Jesus to have been a tame and harmless “spiritual” leader of this kind.

The fact that Jesus was crucified is in itself sufficient refutation of this ahistorical distortion of Jesus’ life and teaching.

Edwin
 
Hi, Edwin,

What you appear to be describing: unchecked, uncontrolled cell division - is a good definition for cancer. What I have seen from the past 500 years is individuals insisting that THEIR way is the only way - and splintering from the previous splinter. This produces a lot of bulk but no structural (doctrinal) strength. And, this is a weakness. Or, put another way, it really did not provide any direct good. There are probably few indirect goods (but, honestly, I can not think of any) that can be traced back to Protestantism. This is not meant to be tricky … but, take the famous epic by the famous anti-Catholic, John Milton. “Paradise Lost” is truly a wonderous literary masterpiece - but, the challenge is how did being a Protestant (as opposed to being a gifted writer) enable this genius with a major visual deficit manage to write such work?

Whatever incidental benefit you may find in the arts, literature, science that you trace back to the influence of Protestantism is a distraction. This is like telling us that a man put his arm into an electric saw - but was saved from death and sewen up by a surgeon. While it is lucky for him that the surgeon was available - the issue was the mutilation that the body suffered from this truly unfortunate act.

God bless
Again, I think that one of the problems with this thread is the assumption that “reform” is good. The big problem with Protestantism is precisely that it keeps on reforming, along the lines of the original “reform.” That’s why there are so many divisions!

Edwin
 
Hi, Ibneahmad,

Can you support these statements about Jesus with any 1st or 2nd century references?

God bless
I think that reformation was useful; it ended or decreased hegemony of the clergy on the Christian religion; which is what Jesus believed in. Jesus was against the hegemony of clergy on the religion; he wanted to keep the religion in secular form; religion has nothing to do or to meddle with the temporal affairs of the societhy; religion is for guidance in matters pertaining to ethical, moral and spiritual matters concering the humanity.
 
Do you think the Protestant Reformation did anything good? I personally thing it was one of the greatest tragedies in the history of the human race, but could’ve been avoided. And if it were avoided, things would be a lot better off today. Why did it happen, and what could have been done to stop it, and what can be done now to reverse the damages wrought by it?
I believe that it was God ordained and nothing could have stopped it.
 
Code:
*a. Tetzel did nothing wrong.*
Perhaps Tetzel believed that selling indulgences to pay for St. Peters Basilica was right, because that is what the Pope wanted him to do. Instead of standing in the public square and preaching the gospel of salvation, he was fundraising. I agree, there is nothing wrong with fundraising, in and of itself, but some of the claims he made were misleading to the faithful. Trent recognized that the activity in which he was engaged did give the appearance that indulgences could be “sold”. That is why reforms were put in place.
Petergee;8283813:
Luther terrorised this pious monk into cowering in a monastery.
What gives you the impression that Tetzel was such a “pious monk”? Do you think fundraising for a corrupt superior demonstrates piety?
Yes, like every pope, Pope Leo’s moral doctrines were infallibly true.
And just exactly what “moral doctrines” do you think Leo had? I think now would be a good time to separate his morality (or lack thereof) from the doctrine of the Church. Do you honestly believe his lifestyle was one of upstanding morality?
Code:
Luther had the majority of the German princes on his side, and the mobs he had whipped into fury by peddling them the belief that Tetzel had fleeced them.
Indeed, it was not difficult, since the clerics had been fleecing the flock in this manner since long before Tetzel was born.
Tetzel provided a convenient pretext for Luther to assert the false claim that the Church was “sellling pardon for sins” (simony, which the Church has always condemned.)
Yes, it was convenient because it looked and functioned just that way. 😉

Honestly, Petergee, how come you think so many people got the impression that indulgences were being sold? Do you think Luther made that up? Do you think Tetzel was the first one to do fundraising of this kind?

He served as “indulgence commissary”. Do you know what a “commissary” is? Do you honestly cling the errant notion that there were no abuses in this area?
 
I’m not guessing. Compare Exsurge Domine with the 95 Theses. Condemned proposition 4 in the former corresponds to theses 14-16 in the latter; proposition 7 with theses 1-2; and proposition 38 with theses 18-19 (this correspondence is particularly exact and obvious); while 17-22 summarizes the basic argument of the theses as a whole–see especially theses 5-13, 20-24, and 31-34. Certainly ED covers more than the Theses, but it clearly condemns a number of them. I will grant that in the usual papal language of the time Leo doesn’t say that they are all heretical, but that they are “either heretical, false, scandalous, or offensive to pious ears, as seductive of simple minds.”
Exactly, the pope said that the theses are **either ** one of five alternatives, of which only obne is “heretical”. “The usual papal language of the time” had no hesitation in declaring a statement to be heretical if that was what the pope intended to proclaim.
However, as Eck pointed out to Luther at Leipzig when Luther tried this dodge with regard to Constance’s condemnation of Hus, clearly Leo didn’t think any of the propositions he included in Exsurge Domine were good and orthodox.
That may have been Eck’s opinion, but he had no authority to issue an infallible declaration that a statement is heretical.
 
Edwin: I grant you Hitler did at times before he came to become Fuhrer, claim to be a Christian. But surely non rational person could give see this as anything but a blatant lie intended to manipulate. The German Catholic bishops certainly saw through it at the time, even without the benefit of hindsight that we have. They imposed automatic excommunication on anyone voting for or supporting the Nazis.

See also churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/roots%28n%29-1.htm
at school Hitler was already identifying himself with pagan anti-Catholic forces…
Hitler, a wily politician, aiming to achieve power by the democratic process, avoided anti-Christian utterances in his public speeches. He stressed such issues as unemployment, economic revival and German humiliation. General Ludendorff, who had been virtual dictator of Germany during the war, broke from Hitler over this very tactic.
Ludendorff launched persistent and bitter attacks against the Catholic Church, while Hitler tried to avoid the subject of religion. Challenged by Ludendorff, Hitler privately admitted; “I entirely agree with His Excellency . . . but I need, for the building up of a great political movement, the Catholics of Bavaria just as the Protestants of Prussia, the rest can come later”. ((GP 148)). Hitler claimed he wished to see a spiritual revival and would respect the freedom of the churches. He maintained that he was merely opposed to Catholic political parties.
Yet the mass rallies with their symbolism of German blood, strength and joy, supplied the occult desire for ritual. And the semi-religious belief in a race of Aryan god-men, the needful extermination of inferiors, and the glorious future for an eugenically bred and purified Aryan people, obsessed Hitler as it did other Nazi leaders ((NGC 203)). It was such a vision that motivated the inner core of Nazi activists while being toned down for the general public.
Hitler venerated Nietzsche ((WLS 100)), who had rejected Christian linearism (i.e. The belief that the world is moving towards fulfilment) and saw the eternal cosmos as affirming itself in periodic recurrence ((NCE Vol. 7 page 25)).
 
Sorry I missed noticing that teh operative word in your previous comment was “earlier”. We don’t. We merely defend those who are falsely accused of it.
This is from Wikipedia: Cardinal Albert of Hohenzollern (German: About this sound Albrecht von Hohenzollern (help·info)) (28 June 1490 – 24 September 1545) was Elector and Archbishop of Mainz from 1514 to 1545, and Archbishop of Magdeburg from 1513 to 1545.
In 1514 he obtained the Electorate of Mainz, and in 1518 was made a cardinal at the age of 28. Meanwhile to pay for the pallium of the see of Mainz and to discharge the other expenses of his elevation, Albert had borrowed 21,000 ducats from Jacob Fugger, and had obtained permission from Pope Leo X to conduct the sale of indulgences in his diocese to obtain funds to repay this loan, as long as half the collection was forwarded to the Papacy. An agent of the Fuggers subsequently traveled in the Cardinal’s retinue in charge of the cashbox. For this work he procured the services of John Tetzel, and so indirectly exercised a potent influence on the course of the Reformation.
So, Tetzel and the good Archbishop didn’t sell indulgences?
 
Perhaps Tetzel believed that selling indulgences to pay for St. Peters Basilica was right, because that is what the Pope wanted him to do. Instead of standing in the public square and preaching the gospel of salvation, he was fundraising. I agree, there is nothing wrong with fundraising, in and of itself, but some of the claims he made were misleading to the faithful. Trent recognized that the activity in which he was engaged did give the appearance that indulgences could be “sold”. That is why reforms were put in place.
Exactly, it gave, or could give if viewed through jaundiced eyes, the appearance that indulgences were being “sold”. Hence the Council ruled that the conditions for meeting indulgences must not include any almsgiving, no matter how worthy the cause to which the alms are given. Sadly this remains the rule even to this day. A case of “justice must not only be done (which it already was) it must be seen to be done”, even by those who are determined to see injustice where there is none.
What gives you the impression that Tetzel was such a “pious monk”? Do you think fundraising for a corrupt superior demonstrates piety?
Please read my post #82.
And just exactly what “moral doctrines” do you think Leo had? I think now would be a good time to separate his morality (or lack thereof) from the doctrine of the Church. Do you honestly believe his lifestyle was one of upstanding morality?
I find it hard to belive that someone who has made almost 23,000 posts to CAF thinks that when someone talks of a pope’s “moral doctrines” he means that pope’s personal morality.
Honestly, Petergee, how come you think so many people got the impression that indulgences were being sold? Do you think Luther made that up?
In a word, yes. Which even Luther seemed to later admit by implication.
Do you honestly cling the errant notion that there were no abuses in this area?
Of course not, I already said before that there were.

It would contribute greatly to fruitful discussion if you actually read what another poster has said in the thread before re-asking questions he has already answered and launching personal attacks upon him for supposedly holding views which he has clearly stated he does not.
 
This is from Wikipedia: Cardinal Albert of Hohenzollern (German: About this sound Albrecht von Hohenzollern (help·info)) (28 June 1490 – 24 September 1545) was Elector and Archbishop of Mainz from 1514 to 1545, and Archbishop of Magdeburg from 1513 to 1545.
In 1514 he obtained the Electorate of Mainz, and in 1518 was made a cardinal at the age of 28. Meanwhile to pay for the pallium of the see of Mainz and to discharge the other expenses of his elevation, Albert had borrowed 21,000 ducats from Jacob Fugger, and had obtained permission from Pope Leo X to conduct the sale of indulgences in his diocese to obtain funds to repay this loan, as long as half the collection was forwarded to the Papacy. An agent of the Fuggers subsequently traveled in the Cardinal’s retinue in charge of the cashbox. For this work he procured the services of John Tetzel, and so indirectly exercised a potent influence on the course of the Reformation.
So, Tetzel and the good Archbishop didn’t sell indulgences?
Well if Wikipedia says it, it must be true! :rolleyes:
 
Well if Wikipedia says it, it must be true! :rolleyes:
You probably will not believe the heretical Luther Works but here it is:
During the thirteenth century scholastic theologians also formulated the doctrine concerning the treasury of merits in order to explain how the pope could relax a penalty which God had demanded. This treasury was a storehouse of merits of Christ and the saints who had done more than God had required of them. The pope as the successor of Peter, to whom Christ had given the power of the keys, could draw upon ,this treasury when granting indulgences. To make sure that the pope s authority over the sinner did not end with the latter s death, Pope Sixtus IV declared in 1477 that the pope exercised authority over souls in purgatory, but only by way of intercession for them. The ordinary Christian could not readily distinguish between intercession and complete jurisdiction and therefore freely bought indulgences for the dead.
Another important change occurred when theologians discovered a distinction between contrition and attrition. Realizing that true contrition, prompted by one’s love of God, was difficult to achieve, they stated that attrition, prompted by such an unworthy motive as fear of punishment, might be substituted for contrition and then transformed into it by absolution in the sacrament of penance. The bad ethical effects of this are obvious, for a man fearing eternal punishment could in one transaction with an indulgence hawker convert his attrition into contrition and his eternal sin into a temporal sin, be freed of his guilt, and buy a plenary indulgence remitting all temporal penalty. Many uneducated people innocently confused temporal and eternal punishment and the guilt and penalties of sin, actually believing that they could buy their salvation, despite the fact that the distinctions were made in the papal bulls promulgating indulgences.
The indulgence with which Luther came into direct contact through his parishioners was the jubilee indulgence announced by Pope Julius II for the year 1510, the proceeds of which were to be used in building the new basilica of St. Peter in Rome. After the death of Julius II in 1513, Leo X revived this indulgence. In March, 1515, he commissioned Albrecht of Hohenzollern, archbishop of Mainz and of Magdeburg and bishop of Halberstadt, to sell the indulgence in his sees and in certain Brandenburg lands. Albrecht, who was heavily indebted to the papacy for the dispensation to hold the three sees and for the pallium, the symbol of his episcopal authority in Mainz, borrowed the money from the banking house of the Fuggers. In return for selling the indulgence the Fuggers and he were to get half of the proceeds while the other half was to go to the papal treasury. Albrecht appointed as subcommissary Johann Tetzel, a Dominican monk who had sold indulgences for the papacy and the Fuggers since 1504.
Although Luther did not know the details concerning the bargaining at Home among the pope, Archbishop Albrecht, and the Fuggers, he knew the provisions of the papal bull and of Albrecht’s instructions to the indulgence salesmen. The purchasers were assured that this indulgence would grant plenary remission of temporal sin and its penalties in purgatory upon absolution by a confessor of the purchaser’s own choice. An indulgence slip would be given the purchaser which would compel a priest to grant him absolution or be subject to excommunication by Tetzel. Furthermore, one could obtain plenary remission of all penalties for the dead in purgatory without confession or contrition. The official doctrines of the church were stated by Tetzel and the other indulgence sellers, but their mercenary approach gave the impression that money would remit the guilt and the penalties of the worst crimes and would immediately transfer souls suffering in purgatory to heaven.
Luther had repeatedly warned people of the danger of being misled by indulgences and of the necessity of sincere repentance.* In the Ninety-five Theses he organizes all his arguments with reference to Albrecht’s instructions and the claims of the indulgence sellers, not in his usual logical arrangement. He begins with the thesis which embodies the core of all the others, namely, that penance is not a mechanical act but a permanent inner attitude. On the same day that he posted the theses, he sent a copy to Archbishop Albrecht with an accompanying letter advising him to stop the sale of indulgences. He hoped that no copies would be circulated among the people at this time, for he did not want to involve his prince, Frederick the Wise, in difficulties, since Frederick had already spoken against the indulgence preached by Tetzel and had forbidden its sale in his lands.
Luther, Martin: Pelikan, Jaroslav Jan (Hrsg.) ; Oswald, Hilton C. (Hrsg.) ; Lehmann, Helmut T. (Hrsg.): Luther’s Works, Vol. 31 : Career of the Reformer I. Philadelphia : Fortress Press, 1999, c1957 (Luther’s Works 31), S. 31:20-22
 
Maybe it only helps awaken what the Church truly believes… so that we Catholics can hold on to our faith and will not be easily tempted by false teachings.
 
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