Did the Protestant Reformation do anything good?

[joe370]

Hey Radical, you said:

I note that it was said that Jesus was slain from the beginning of creation…so I guess one could say that Christ’s crucifixion was planned by God for some time, but I would be reluctant to say that the sin (that necessitated the cross) was God’s plan. Likewise, it would be fair to say that God, for some time, planned to provide his written word for the Church, but I would be reluctant to say that the sin (that left scripture as the only very reliable source of his word) was part of God’s plan.

I agree that sin was not part of God’s plan and I answered your question regarding the Bob’s and Martha’s of the world, but you have yet to answer my question. If you wouldn’t mind:

Are you of the opinion that the Protestant reformation practice of sola scriptura, (which puts the final authority/interpretation of scripture into the hands of each and every sola scriptura proponent) - was Jesus’ plan for Christianity from the very beginning?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicea325
But only to be more corrupted by more fallible men (I am sure you do not want me to mention names?)

Radical:
…actually, I don’t care if you mention any names or not…but I would agree that some cures were worse than the illness.

Thank you for admitting Protestanism foundations has no historical connection to Jesus or the Apostles. Oh wait,I forgot Augustine was Protestant.

Quote:
BTW: I thought Scripture makes it very clear Jesus Church is infallible and not ONLY a book called the Bible?

well, it wouldn’t be the first time that you have been very wrong

Ouch! What is the matter? Did I hit a soft spot? Really Radical? Wow! Show me where Jesus came to write an infallible Bible and founded a fallible church? Give us your Protestant revelation God has given you?

Let us see that you are not wrong…AGAIN? And I know you are wrong many times…and your point being? Still cannot swallow your spiritual pride-eh Radical? Precisely why you are a Protestant: SELF-CENTERED…it is what I SAY! Hey…much like your founder: Luther. I am glad you are referring to yourself about being wrong. I admire your efforts,but to bad I do not believe a sngle word you say,since you have a bad habit of presenting a revisionist version of history.

 

[CopticChristian]

Quote:

Thank you for admitting Protestanism foundations has no historical connection to Jesus or the Apostles. Oh wait,I forgot Augustine was Protestant.

Ouch! What is the matter? Did I hit a soft spot? Really Radical? Wow! Show me where Jesus came to write an infallible Bible and founded a fallible church? Give us your Protestant revelation God has given you?

Let us see that you are not wrong…AGAIN? And I know you are wrong many times…and your point being? Still cannot swallow your spiritual pride-eh Radical? Precisely why you are a Protestant: SELF-CENTERED…it is what I SAY! Hey…much like your founder: Luther. I am glad you are referring to yourself about being wrong. I admire your efforts,but to bad I do not believe a sngle word you say,since you have a bad habit of presenting a revisionist version of history.

I am not a fan of Radical’s mind and thought process. You should know that in 09/07/08 Radical was going through some difficulties. I have no idea what is going on with Radical now. In response to how things were going this is the response.:imsorry:

on the positive side, 2 pregnancies and on the negative side 2 bouts of breast cancer.

:grouphug:

My mother died of breast cancer. May we all join in prayer for Radical. Breast cancer is difficult and this was 3 years ago. We are approaching that time when this post was made.:

 

[Contarini]

right…and Luther was wrong to worry about any threat of imprisonment or of violence from Catholics too…b/c if Pope Bendict can “agree” then the Popes of the 16th century would have “agreed” too (if only they were given the chance) and if 21st century Catholics wouldn’t burn Luther at the stake, then the 16th century Catholics wouldn’t do that either.

Luther had his flaws, but I don’t think he was so petty as to base his theological understanding of the Papacy on whether it posed a physical danger to him personally.

The Pope excommunicated Luther after Luther had decided that the Papacy was Antichrist.

Edwin

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
… and now …
the Papacy does agree with him …

Maybe. I’m not sure Luther would be satisfied with the terms of Pope Benedict’s “agreement,” though it’s hard to know.

However, more to the point, Pope Benedict’s “agreement” proves Luther wrong on the key issue of whether schism was necessary.

Edwin

To me … any attempt to unscramble eggs is an exercise in futility.

The truth is the truth … and on the issue of sola fide (in love , as Paul describes) … Luther stood on the side of truth … IMHO … as well as the opinion of Pope Benedict’s.

… For those searching/ hoping for reconciliation within the divisions of Christianity … That is it.

Sola fide (in love) is foundational. Get that wrong and nothing else matters. Jesus said clearly … I wish that you were hot or cold …Those that are luke warm get spit out.

 

[joe370]

Hi Radical, Copticchristian said

I am not a fan of Radical’s mind and thought process. You should know that in 09

…My mother died of breast cancer. May we all join in prayer for Radical. Breast cancer is difficult and this was 3 years ago. We are approaching that time when this post was made.:

11 years ago my fiancée passed away of cancer so I can really relate… You are most definitely in my prayers friend!!!

 

[Radical]

Luther had his flaws, but I don’t think he was so petty as to base his theological understanding of the Papacy on whether it posed a physical danger to him personally.

nor did I suggest that, however, now that you mentioned it, that is a thing that would be very hard to restrict totally from influencing oneself. My point was simply you can’t say that schism wasn’t necessary in the 16th century, merely b/c cooler heads have prevailed in the 21st.

 

[Contarini]

nor did I suggest that, however, now that you mentioned it, that is a thing that would be very hard to restrict totally from influencing oneself. My point was simply you can’t say that schism wasn’t necessary in the 16th century, merely b/c cooler heads have prevailed in the 21st.

Yes, I can, because cooler heads existed in the 16th century and were drowned out by both sides, and because doing what is right (as in not breaking the unity of the Church) is not a matter of calculating the consequences.

I don’t think Luther calculated consequences–I think he made a judgment about apostasy. That judgment was clearly wrong.

Edwin

 

[Radical]

Yes, I can, because cooler heads existed in the 16th century and were drowned out by both sides,…

yes, and that is the reality that he had to deal with

… and because doing what is right (as in not breaking the unity of the Church) is not a matter of calculating the consequences.

when you overly simplify what is right, then you might be able to avoid calculating consequences. However, when doing the right thing involves trying to maintain unity while eliminating error, you just might have to weigh things out (if the hierarchy clings to the error) as I don’t see that the good of unity trumps all other concerns.

I don’t think Luther calculated consequences–I think he made a judgment about apostasy. That judgment was clearly wrong.

he was also wrong in not recognizing all the error that existed…and if he had, schism would have been even more difficult to avoid.

 

[Contarini]

To me … any attempt to unscramble eggs is an exercise in futility.

Indeed.

The truth is the truth … and on the issue of sola fide (in love) … Luther stood on the side of truth

No, he didn’t. Luther made a particular way of articulating justification by faith a church-dividing issue. Catholics at the time said that his doctrine of justification wasn’t a huge problem (see David Bagchi, Luther’s Earliest Opponents). It was only after Luther and other Protestants had made it one that Trent responded in kind. And Luther’s theology was not perfect–his doctrine of justification was one-sided and had plenty of holes that needed patching. You are taking Pope Benedict’s statement in a far more extreme sense than the Pope meant it, as if Luther’s doctrine was just fine as it stands. It is correct if properly interpreted and nuanced and balanced with the rest of Catholic orthodoxy. But Luther didn’t do that.

To say that God imputes righteousness to people solely based on faith and that works play no direct role in deciding whether a person is finally accepted by God as righteous is unorthodox, always has been unorthodox, and is in no way endorsed by Pope Benedict. Yet this is what Luther said. We can now see that it was simply an overly polemical desire to safeguard a genuine theological insight, but it remains unorthodox and the Catholic Church of the 16th century was right to reject it.

Edwin

 

[Radical]

I agree that sin was not part of God’s plan and I answered your question regarding the Bob’s and Martha’s of the world, but you have yet to answer my question. If you wouldn’t mind:

Are you of the opinion that the Protestant reformation practice of sola scriptura, (which puts the final authority/interpretation of scripture into the hands of each and every sola scriptura proponent) - was Jesus’ plan for Christianity from the very beginning?

I don’t know of any Church that both follows sola scriptura and argues that the final authority/interpretation of scripture should be put into the hands of each and every sola scriptura proponent…it is not how I think it should work. We are to be members of a body and subject to our leaders and other members. In turn, our leaders must be worthy of leading and are to lead by serving and not lording. I think that it is safe to say that what you describe was never Jesus’s plan for Christianity.

11 years ago my fiancée passed away of cancer so I can really relate…

sorry to hear that

You are most definitely in my prayers friend!!

thanks, that is kind of you

 

[Hiskid1973]

People pitch this like some blame against protestant christians or some how they’re defective. Your either “in Christ” or not. Same Spirit, no separation. Seeds were planted and division reaped centuries before…The gospel spread around the world.Even to this day people come to Christ daily. The great commission was never hindered. The church grew and the gospel spread apart from just the Rome see and those in accord with it…Splits/divisions were happening with I’m of Paul and I am Appollos and went on
from there…Be interesting to know all that went on in the early days…But when we see
Him face to face that will not matter.

 

[Radical]

Thank you for admitting Protestanism foundations has no historical connection to Jesus or the Apostles. Oh wait,I forgot Augustine was Protestant.

ahhh…two things that I don’t recall saying

Let us see that you are not wrong…AGAIN? And I know you are wrong many times…and your point being? Still cannot swallow your spiritual pride-eh Radical? Precisely why you are a Protestant: SELF-CENTERED…it is what I SAY! Hey…much like your founder: Luther.

still charming I see…in any event Lutherans killed a good many of my anabaptist fore-runners, so I wouldn’t designate him as my founder

… I do not believe a sngle word you say,since you have a bad habit of presenting a revisionist version of history.

it shouldn’t be a question of whether it is revised or not…it should simply be a question of whether it is right or not…and on that we’ll never agree
.

 

[Radical]

My mother died of breast cancer.

sorry to hear that…so did mine, but that wasn’t the cancer that I had spoken about

May we all join in prayer for Radical.

thanks, but the cancer thing has passed (for now) and ongoing treatment is only a minor annoyance…sorry to hear that you are not a fan of mine…I was hoping that I could count on your vote next time I am nominated for Miss Congeniality around here.

 

[CopticChristian]

People pitch this like some blame against protestant christians or some how they’re defective. Your either “in Christ” or not. Same Spirit, no separation. Seeds were planted and division reaped centuries before…The gospel spread around the world.Even to this day people come to Christ daily. The great commission was never hindered. The church grew and the gospel spread apart from just the Rome see and those in accord with it…Splits/divisions were happening with I’m of Paul and I am Appollos and went on
from there…Be interesting to know all that went on in the early days…But when we see
Him face to face that will not matter.

You are reading into I am of Paul etc what you want to see. It is as if I was led to Christ by Paul and I by Appollos. Being led to the One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism does not equate to your misinterpretation. John Chrysosotom says it thus

Further, he said not, “Those who guide you into the Faith,”

 

[CopticChristian]

sorry to hear that…so did mine, but that wasn’t the cancer that I had spoken about

thanks, but the cancer thing has passed (for now) and ongoing treatment is only a minor annoyance…sorry to hear that you are not a fan of mine…I was hoping that I could count on your vote next time I am nominated for Miss Congeniality around here.

Congeniality should not be confused with beliefs and thoughts although as we think and believe so we act.:thumbsup:

 

[Nicea325]

ahhh…two things that I don’t recall saying

still charming I see…in any event Lutherans killed a good many of my anabaptist fore-runners, so I wouldn’t designate him as my founder

it shouldn’t be a question of whether it is revised or not…it should simply be a question of whether it is right or not…and on that we’ll never agree
.

Okay.

 

[Hiskid1973]

You are reading into I am of Paul etc what you want to see. It is as if I was led to Christ by Paul and I by Appollos. Being led to the One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism does not equate to your misinterpretation. John Chrysosotom says it thus

Wasn’t really trying to interpret anything. Issues were there from early on with believers…One see splits from the rest then evidently things were not fixed and furthered schismed. Christ was/ is still Lord…

 

[CopticChristian]

Wasn’t really trying to interpret anything. Issues were there from early on with believers…One see splits from the rest then evidently things were not fixed and furthered schismed. Christ was/ is still Lord…

The issue is not what you say and you persist in believing you are correct. If all of us arrive at the baseball game driven by friends and argue as to who brought us that is not division. It detracts from the game. You believe it represents division. You are wrong.:thumbsup:

 

[Hiskid1973]

You are wrong.:thumbsup:

In your opinion. One day we will know why your See further schismed…God is still working and the gospel is still being preached.