Did the protestant revolution come from the Roman Catholic Church only? Or did Churches break away from the Orthodox also?

[excaliber]

There are debates that are recorded and put online and its normaly Roman Catholic vs protestant… or protestant vs protestant.

Why is it that there isnt much protesting against the Orthodox Church?

The very knowledge of the Eastern Orthodox seems hidden from protestants

Before martin luther protested… wasnt there ALREADY a split?

Why does this seem so hidden from people…instead of being the hottest debate in all christendom?

Roman Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox

 

[JonNC]

To answer your title, the Reformation was a division within the western Church.

=excaliber;12586514]There are debates that are recorded and put online and its normaly Roman Catholic vs protestant… or protestant vs protestant.

I think there are, but historically geography and politics have suppressed the amount of knowledge many westerners have about the EO churches. There are better historians than me here, so I would defer to their insight if I’m wrong.

Why is it that there isnt much protesting against the Orthodox Church?

There isn’t very much “protesting” against the Catholic Church either, quite frankly, except perhaps in secular and government circles these days.

Before martin luther protested… wasnt there ALREADY a split?

Remember that the protest was actually against civil authorities, but that said, yes, there obviously were other schisms and divisions.

Why does this seem so hidden from people…instead of being the hottest debate in all christendom?
Roman Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox

Oh, it there, trust me. You can see it pop up every now and then here at CAF.

Jon

 

[adf417]

There isn’t very much “protesting” against the Catholic Church either, quite frankly, except perhaps in secular and government circles these days.

Quite shocking the different perspectives - from different sides of the Tiber.

Peace Jon!!!

 

[Elizium23]

The Orthodox Churches have suffered schisms as well. One notable split is that of the Old Believers in Russia. The Old Believers rebelled against liturgical reforms, many of which were designed to eliminate discrepancies between Russian and Greek texts, and bring the Russian back into line with the canonical Greek, which were considered more accurate.

Another schism in the Eastern Orthodox communion is that of the Old Calendarists. You will note similarities here with the Old Believers. Old Calendarists still use the unreformed Julian calendar for their liturgical commemorations, therefore making January 7 a typical day for their celebration of Christmas. The Julian calendar “drifts” forward, so soon Christmas will instead be on January 8, etc.

As you can see, these schisms are not exactly analogous to the Protestant Reformation, because both times, the splitting parties desired to retain an existing practice, rather than strip them away and introduce novel practices and beliefs. And I know that you were asking specifically about Protestantism, because as you say, the Orthodox are virtually unknown to them. But I just thought I would share these tidbits in the hope that they are useful to you.

 

[SyroMalankara]

There were “reformations” (revolutions, really) in areas that are traditionally Orthodox and had western missionaries infiltrate - such as India, among the St. Thomas Christians.

 

[Kosta]

There were “reformations” (revolutions, really) in areas that are traditionally Orthodox and had western missionaries infiltrate - such as India, among the St. Thomas Christians.

Yes, and it all started with the Portuguese in 1599.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Yes, and it all started with the Portuguese in 1599.

Oversimplification.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

There have been schisms in the eastern church but none of those, like the Old believers of Russia, compare with the protestant reformation in the breadth or scope. I do not think the Old believers or any such schism that has happened really compares with the western reformation, which seemed to throw almost everything before it out.

 

[Nektarios_Lady]

There are debates that are recorded and put online and its normaly Roman Catholic vs protestant… or protestant vs protestant.

Why is it that there isnt much protesting against the Orthodox Church?

The very knowledge of the Eastern Orthodox seems hidden from protestants

Before martin luther protested… wasnt there ALREADY a split?

Why does this seem so hidden from people…instead of being the hottest debate in all christendom?

Roman Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox

From the Orthodox point of view, the Catholic Church IS the first Protestant Church

In this thread, it’s been claimed by a Catholic that Old Calendarists, those who celebrate the Nativity of Jesus (Christmas) on the secular calendar date of January 7th are somehow not Orthodox or protesting against Orthodoxy; however, this is simply Not true. For example, the Russians & Serbians who use the original Julian Calendar remain in full communion with the Greeks and OCA who use a modified Julian Calendar.

The Old Believer’s are Orthodox, they’re the equivalent of what the SSPX are to Catholics. They’re still a part of the Church, but at the same time condemn it.

With the exception of heresies condemned by Ecumenical Councils, like the beliefs of the Copts, I’m not aware of any other group besides the Catholics that have left the Church.

 

[twf]

From the Orthodox point of view, the Catholic Church IS the first Protestant Church

In this thread, it’s been claimed by a Catholic that Old Calendarists, those who celebrate the Nativity of Jesus (Christmas) on the secular calendar date of January 7th are somehow not Orthodox or protesting against Orthodoxy; however, this is simply Not true. For example, the Russians & Serbians who use the original Julian Calendar remain in full communion with the Greeks and OCA who use a modified Julian Calendar.

The Old Believer’s are Orthodox, they’re the equivalent of what the SSPX are to Catholics. They’re still a part of the Church, but at the same time condemn it.

With the exception of heresies condemned by Ecumenical Councils, like the beliefs of the Copts, I’m not aware of any other group besides the Catholics that have left the Church.

I don’t think any serious Orthodox scholars would classify the Catholic Church as “Protestant”. The issues of the Great Schism and the issues of the Protestant Reformation were very different. The Great Schism also didn’t result in the creation of any new organizations or institutions, as the Protestant Reformation did, but rather the split of existing institutions (the Latin Church and the Byzantine Church).

The Protestant Reformers sat down and penned novel doctrines on the spot. The doctrinal differences that divide Latin Catholics and the Orthodox developed gradually over a period of centuries. Differing views on papal primacy, original sin, the filioque, etc all existed long, long, long before the Schism. There was no definitive “protest” that you can point to that compares to the Reformation.

 

[wynd]

In this thread, it’s been claimed by a Catholic that Old Calendarists, those who celebrate the Nativity of Jesus (Christmas) on the secular calendar date of January 7th are somehow not Orthodox or protesting against Orthodoxy; however, this is simply Not true. For example, the Russians & Serbians who use the original Julian Calendar remain in full communion with the Greeks and OCA who use a modified Julian Calendar.

It is true that many canonical Orthodox churches still use the old calendar. What the poster probably meant was schismatic groups like the Greek Old Calendarists and their subdivisions, who not only continue to use the old calendar but refuse to be in communion with anyone who uses the new calendar.

 

[Elizium23]

In this thread, it’s been claimed by a Catholic that Old Calendarists, those who celebrate the Nativity of Jesus (Christmas) on the secular calendar date of January 7th are somehow not Orthodox or protesting against Orthodoxy; however, this is simply Not true. For example, the Russians & Serbians who use the original Julian Calendar remain in full communion with the Greeks and OCA who use a modified Julian Calendar.

I am sorry that I gave that impression, and re-reading my post, I see you’re right. What I should have said is that “Old Calendarists” is a collective name for schismatics who are characterized primarily by their use of the unreformed Julian calendar, however, many users of the Julian calendar are indeed in communion with Eastern Orthodox Churches. Those who are in communion are called Eastern Orthodox, and are not called Old Calendarists. Both groups do celebrate Christmas on January 7, and indeed, some Armenians (Oriental Orthodox) celebrate Christmas on still other dates.

Not all Eastern Orthodox use the Julian calendar; many celebrate Christmas on December 25, and use the Gregorian calendar, but not all, because the Gregorian calendar is identified as uniquely Catholic, so switching to it is a significant break with Orthodox tradition, and perceived by many as a concession to the Catholic Church, even though it is more of a concession to the modern world, which has universally adopted the Gregorian reckoning.

 

[SyroMalankara]

With the exception of heresies condemned by Ecumenical Councils, like the beliefs of the Copts, I’m not aware of any other group besides the Catholics that have left the Church.

Not being aware of it is not the same as these not existing.

Small examples of protestant ‘churches’ infiltration into Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches:

Ukrainian Lutheran Church
Marthoma Syrian Church
– it’s offshoot, the St. Thomas Evangelical Church
Georgian Baptist Church
Armenian Evangelical Church
Ethiopian Tehadiso
Romanian Baptist Church

 

[SyroMalankara]

Not all Eastern Orthodox use the Julian calendar; many celebrate Christmas on December 25, and use the Gregorian calendar, but not all, because the Gregorian calendar is identified as uniquely Catholic, so switching to it is a significant break with Orthodox tradition, and perceived by many as a concession to the Catholic Church, even though it is more of a concession to the modern world, which has universally adopted the Gregorian reckoning.

Eastern Catholics, especially Byzantines in Orthodox countries - like Ukraine and Greece - celebrate on the Julian so it’s not accurate to claim the Gregorian is the only Catholic calendar.

 

[Elizium23]

Eastern Catholics, especially Byzantines in Orthodox countries - like Ukraine and Greece - celebrate on the Julian so it’s not accurate to claim the Gregorian is the only Catholic calendar.

Yes, thank you for that clarification, and I never said anything to the contrary.

 

[JonNC]

Quite shocking the different perspectives - from different sides of the Tiber.

Peace Jon!!!

I think even your side of the Tiber recognizes this, that most western non-Catholics today do not think of their membership in their communion as a protest against the Catholic Church. They were, often, born into it, raised in it, as were their parents. They usually view the Catholic church down the block as the church their friend at work goes to.
Sure; there are those who view the Catholic Church as one to be avoided, but that’s not the case for the typical seat in the pew.

Jon

 

[Contarini]

There are debates that are recorded and put online and its normaly Roman Catholic vs protestant… or protestant vs protestant.

Why is it that there isnt much protesting against the Orthodox Church?

The very knowledge of the Eastern Orthodox seems hidden from protestants

Before martin luther protested… wasnt there ALREADY a split?

Why does this seem so hidden from people…instead of being the hottest debate in all christendom?

Roman Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox

It seems like you are asking at least three different things:

1. Did some Protestants split away from the Orthodox Church? Sort of. Initial Protestantism was a split within Western Christianity. There were Protestants in Eastern Europe who tried to convert the Orthodox, and I think at times they had a little success, but not very much to my knowledge. (The fact that Orthodox Christians were discriminated against and looked down didn’t help them see any value in this newfangled notion adopted by their German or Hungarian overlords–I’m speaking here mostly of Romania because that’s the Eastern European country I now best.) However, there were later movements of Protestant origin that did take root within Orthodox countries. The Stundists in Russia, for instance, were an indigenous movement influenced by German Baptists and Mennonites. Later on, Baptists and Plymouth Brethren, and eventually Pentecostals, took root in Orthodox areas. The Plymouth Brethren, in my experience, became pretty indigenous in Romania during the Communist years and developed some features that were rather surprising to their Western European and American “brethren” when contact resumed after
   the collapse of the Iron Curtain. To some extent I think that’s true of the Baptists and Pentecostals as well. In other words, contra much Orthodox propaganda, these guys are not just Western colonial implants–they do respond to a genuine spiritual need among Orthodox people. The most interesting such movement, to my mind, is a group called the “Lord’s Army” which had some Western evangelical influence but refused to leave the Orthodox Church. Then in Russia there were groups such as the Doukhobors and Molokans who practiced a “spiritual” religion that didn’t really correspond to any mainstream Protestant model, although no doubt there was some Protestant influence. And finally, as someone else noted, we have the “Old Believers,” who were strictly Orthodox originally but some of whom became somewhat Protestant-like in certain respects simply because they lost apostolic succession and thus had no sacraments or priests.
2. Why don’t Protestants pay more attention to the Orthodox? Most of that is cultural. There still aren’t that many Orthodox in Protestant countries, and Protestants have centuries of conflict with Catholicism that have shaped their identity. They tend to lump the Orthodox together with Catholics, but anti-Catholic Protestants often see the Orthodox as not quite as dangerous–contemptibly superstitious but not a raging antichristian beast like Catholicism. Some of this is the same foolish idea shared by many traditional Catholics that the Orthodox are simply “fossilized” ultra-traditionalists with little relevant to say. In recent years, more and more Protestants have become fascinated with the Orthodox. There have been a significant number of converts, and some Catholics claim that many Protestants become Orthodox because it doesn’t require them to overcome as many prejudices. Even those who don’t become Orthodox are often fascinated by icons, Orthodox liturgy, mysticism, etc. But both groups are still a minority of all Protestants.
3. Why don’t Catholics and Orthodox argue more? Well, they do. But again, the Catholic-Protestant debate tends to dominate for historical/cultural reasons. There was once a forum on Eastern Christianity here that included a lot of Orthodox, and there was a blowup some years ago (which the Catholics say was because the Orthodox were proselytizing and breaking forum rules, and the Orthodox say was because they were getting the better of the argument and actually persuading some Catholics), resulting in the reframing of the forum as “Eastern Catholicism.” Technically Orthodox are supposed to be on this forum instead, although I think some discussion of Orthodoxy still goes on on the other forum

Edwin

 

[twf]

I think even your side of the Tiber recognizes this, that most western non-Catholics today do not think of their membership in their communion as a protest against the Catholic Church. They were, often, born into it, raised in it, as were their parents. They usually view the Catholic church down the block as the church their friend at work goes to.
Sure; there are those who view the Catholic Church as one to be avoided, but that’s not the case for the typical seat in the pew.

Jon

Thankfully this is largely true in North America, but not everywhere. In parts of Latin America, where evangelical / Pentecostal missionaries actively and often aggressively target cultural Catholics, there is VERY much an “us vs them” we are protesting the Catholic Church by introducing the true Gospel mentality. I speak from personal experience. I personally know Protestant missionaries in Venezuela whose church requires all converts to publicly renounce the Catholic Church as part of the reception ceremony. This is the Christian and Missionary Alliance, not some obscure Pentecostal sect. Many Protestants won’t even celebrate Easter as it is seen as “too Catholic” in these countries. My wife was raised Pentecostal in the Dominican Republic - she was taught that Easter was when Catholics dwelled on “the dead Jesus” and everyone got drunk. Sad but true. It’s a completely different world from North America.

 

[JonNC]

Thankfully this is largely true in North America, but not everywhere. In parts of Latin America, where evangelical / Pentecostal missionaries actively and often aggressively target cultural Catholics, there is VERY much an “us vs them” we are protesting the Catholic Church by introducing the true Gospel mentality. I speak from personal experience. I personally know Protestant missionaries in Venezuela whose church requires all converts to publicly renounce the Catholic Church as part of the reception ceremony. This is the Christian and Missionary Alliance, not some obscure Pentecostal sect. Many Protestants won’t even celebrate Easter as it is seen as “too Catholic” in these countries. My wife was raised Pentecostal in the Dominican Republic - she was taught that Easter was when Catholics dwelled on “the dead Jesus” and everyone got drunk. Sad but true. It’s a completely different world from North America.

I understand. It seems like it takes a few generations for that sort of parochial attitude to fade away. To be sure, even here in the American south, there are pockets of that same ferver.
Then again, they typically don’t care much for Lutherans, either. Too Catholic, doncha know.

Jon

 

[Nektarios_Lady]

It is true that many canonical Orthodox churches still use the old calendar. What the poster probably meant was schismatic groups like the Greek Old Calendarists and their subdivisions, who not only continue to use the old calendar but refuse to be in communion with anyone who uses the new calendar.

You’re talking about Orthodox Christians who would be the equivalent of the Catholic’s SSPX, Old Catholics, Polish Catholic Church, etc.These groups are Orthodox Christians.