Did the Reformers confer or consult with anyone?

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Sorry everyone - another quesiton from me :o

When Luther, Calvin, and others made their doctrinal changes, and then promoted them, did they consult with anyone? By that I mean, in the same way as the Catholic Church has a body of Bishops and Cardinals, did Luther and Calvin and the others refer or defer to a body of like minded reformers, or did they just stand up on their own with their proposed reforms and just go for it?
 
Sorry everyone - another quesiton from me :o

When Luther, Calvin, and others made their doctrinal changes, and then promoted them, did they consult with anyone? By that I mean, in the same way as the Catholic Church has a body of Bishops and Cardinals, did Luther and Calvin and the others refer or defer to a body of like minded reformers, or did they just stand up on their own with their proposed reforms and just go for it?
Questions are good. This should prove interesting and I will look forward to learning some history.
 
Sorry everyone - another quesiton from me :o

When Luther, Calvin, and others made their doctrinal changes, and then promoted them, did they consult with anyone? By that I mean, in the same way as the Catholic Church has a body of Bishops and Cardinals, did Luther and Calvin and the others refer or defer to a body of like minded reformers, or did they just stand up on their own with their proposed reforms and just go for it?
Yes. Arguably the Reformed did this more than the Lutherans (certainly more than Luther himself, who tended to charge off on his own and was often criticized by other Reformers for doing so), but they all did it. They kept up a constant correspondence among themselves (and in some cases also with reform-minded Catholic sympathizers), and had frequent meetings among themselves (and, again, sometimes with Catholics as well), and you can see their thought being shaped by this. They also read each others’ writings, of course.

As I said, the Reformed in particular set up a system of synods that made consultation an intrinsic part of the way their churches functioned. This is the basis for what in the English-speaking world is called Presbyterianism–it writes conciliarism into the structure of the Church at every level. Lutherans and Anglicans, on the other hand, were generally more closely linked to the state, and while lots of consultations took place, these traditions were somewhat more subject to sudden change at the whims of the monarch. (This is perhaps unfair, and I expect Lutherans to challenge me on this one! It should also be noted that many German Reformed territories worked similarly to the Lutherans and Anglicans. In fact, some German rulers set out to make their formerly Lutheran territories Reformed by princely fiat, though they usually were not entirely successful.)

Edwin
 
Yes. Arguably the Reformed did this more than the Lutherans (certainly more than Luther himself, who tended to charge off on his own and was often criticized by other Reformers for doing so), but they all did it. They kept up a constant correspondence among themselves (and in some cases also with reform-minded Catholic sympathizers), and had frequent meetings among themselves (and, again, sometimes with Catholics as well), and you can see their thought being shaped by this. They also read each others’ writings, of course.

As I said, the Reformed in particular set up a system of synods that made consultation an intrinsic part of the way their churches functioned. This is the basis for what in the English-speaking world is called Presbyterianism–it writes conciliarism into the structure of the Church at every level. Lutherans and Anglicans, on the other hand, were generally more closely linked to the state, and while lots of consultations took place, these traditions were somewhat more subject to sudden change at the whims of the monarch. (This is perhaps unfair, and I expect Lutherans to challenge me on this one! It should also be noted that many German Reformed territories worked similarly to the Lutherans and Anglicans. In fact, some German rulers set out to make their formerly Lutheran territories Reformed by princely fiat, though they usually were not entirely successful.)

Edwin
Along the same line as the OP.

What happened when the reformers disagreed on a point of Theology? Luther and Zwingli’s discussions on the Eucharist, for example. Did the Reformers still consider those that thought differently than they did on basic theological matters Christians? Was there lots of room for different thought as long as the different thought was not Catholic? Or were they concerned with keeping the faith along their own individualistic lines? Luther and Calvin have differences of opinions, but did each consider the other a Brother in Christ or did they brand each other heretical?

Am I making sense?
 
Along the same line as the OP.

What happened when the reformers disagreed on a point of Theology? Luther and Zwingli’s discussions on the Eucharist, for example. Did the Reformers still consider those that thought differently than they did on basic theological matters Christians? Was there lots of room for different thought as long as the different thought was not Catholic? Or were they concerned with keeping the faith along their own individualistic lines? Luther and Calvin have differences of opinions, but did each consider the other a Brother in Christ or did they brand each other heretical?

Am I making sense?
Indeed, this is an excellent question, and the answer is complex.

Luther was horrified that Zwingli disagreed with him on the Eucharist. In fact, he saw Zwingli’s error as much worse than the Catholic error with regard to the Eucharist specifically (for him, the real problem with Catholicism was their teaching on justification–transubstantiation was a relatively minor problem). Philip Melanchthon eventually came up with a position that gave some ground to the Reformed, but Lutherans for the most part considered the Reformed to be heretical–not as bad as the Catholics, but for some Lutherans not much better.

The Reformed, on the other hand, initially saw Luther’s error as pretty serious, since they thought he was giving too much spiritual value to the “carnal eating.” However, Martin Bucer, and following him most of the Reformed tradition, came to a much more charitable view of the Lutherans, seeing them as a bit too literal but not heretics. Bucer in fact signed an agreement with the Lutherans on the Eucharist, though this did not lead to permanent reunion of the two movements. Generally the Reformed do not see their disagreements with the Lutherans as being as major as the Lutherans do.

Qualification to the above: Luther was a bit dubious about Bucer’s irenic proposals, but he did go along with the agreement. And he spoke quite kindly of Calvin on the whole (who more or less followed Bucer on the Eucharist, though he was less interested in seeking union with the Lutherans). He was impressed by Calvin’s defense of Protestantism against Cardinal Sadoleto, and thought that allowances should be made in the light of that. Later Lutherans, however, attacked Calvin as a heretic, and the Lutheran Formula of Concord rejected the Bucer/Calvin mediating position as “crafty Sacramentarianism” (i.e., a position that pretended to acknowledge the Real Presence but really denied it).

So for most of the 16th century, the “Reformed” position was a broader tent, willing to include the Lutherans (who didn’t want to be included, for the most part) and a broad coalition of non-Lutheran Protestantism (including Anglicanism). Then, in the late sixteenth century, the Puritans in England developed a radical form of Calvinism that treated more conservative Protestant groups with much more impatience, and to some extent similar things happened on the Continent. In the 17th century, Anglicanism detached itself more and more from the Reformed coalition and become something rather different (or rather, formed a broad tent of its own that included Reformed positions and others much closer to Catholicism). I would argue that it was this increasing splintering, and the religious violence that accompanied it (a bloody civil war in Britain among Protestants, for instance), that really got Protestants to start thinking about whether they could run around anathematizing those who differed from them, leading to more tolerant traditions within Protestantism (the broad-tent evangelical approach we are familiar with today, and also liberal Protestantism’s more thorough-going indifferentism).

Edwin
 
Sorry everyone - another quesiton from me :o

When Luther, Calvin, and others made their doctrinal changes, and then promoted them, did they consult with anyone? By that I mean, in the same way as the Catholic Church has a body of Bishops and Cardinals, did Luther and Calvin and the others refer or defer to a body of like minded reformers, or did they just stand up on their own with their proposed reforms and just go for it?
The Reformers were directed (not consulted) by God the Holy Spirit. God’s wisdom is superior than man’s wisdom.
 
The Reformers were directed (not consulted) by God the Holy Spirit. God’s wisdom is superior than man’s wisdom.
Reformed: That’s a neat answer. But if true, then how is it that they were ultimately directed in over 30,000 different directions all claiming to have the correct interpretation of scripture with the assistance of the Holy Spirit?

Seriously - that schism and split among Protestants is an issue you (all protestants) need to face head on and not continually sweep under the rug.

Are you willing to offer a reply to that question?

Blessings,

Brian
 
Sorry everyone - another quesiton from me :o

When Luther, Calvin, and others made their doctrinal changes, and then promoted them, did they consult with anyone? By that I mean, in the same way as the Catholic Church has a body of Bishops and Cardinals, did Luther and Calvin and the others refer or defer to a body of like minded reformers, or did they just stand up on their own with their proposed reforms and just go for it?
They would claimed that they consulted the scriptures and the Holy Spirit and that scriptures were entirely sufficient in and of themselves to explain things apart from tradition.
 
Reformed: That’s a neat answer. But if true, then how is it that they were ultimately directed in over 30,000 different directions all claiming to have the correct interpretation of scripture with the assistance of the Holy Spirit?

Seriously - that schism and split among Protestants is an issue you (all protestants) need to face head on and not continually sweep under the rug.

Are you willing to offer a reply to that question?

Blessings,

Brian
The Apostle Paul wrote that he knew in part. This is the same issue for all of us including the Roman Catholic Church. That is why in the 21st century, you can see heavy weight Catholic theologians debating within the Roman Catholic church with mutually exclusive answers on heavy weight subjects such as the deposit of faith of Sacred Tradition. Did you follow along on the topic on Sacred Tradition. The actual contents or deposit of faith that was once for all delievered to the Saints in regards to Sacred Tradition is not agreed upon between catholic theologians. The major Protestant denominations agree on the essentials of Christianity. Here is a link to an Alliance between Protestant denominations. The historic Protestant Confessions are very similar. Within Roman Catholicism, you too have much diversity on issues, correct?

alliancenet.org/

Thread on the unknown contents of Sacred Traditon:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=276435
 
The Reformers were directed (not consulted) by God the Holy Spirit.
And when they disagreed, as they often did, who was directing them? Luther was confident that he was directed by the Holy Spirit in his view of the Eucharist, not just in his view of justification. Aren’t you really saying simply that *you *are directed by the Holy Spirit, and thus that anyone who agrees with you is directed by the Holy Spirit insofar as they do so, and not otherwise? Don’t you see how arrogant and presumptuous that appears to anyone not so fortunate as to be you?

Edwin
 
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Reformed:
Within Roman Catholicism, you too have much diversity on issues, correct?
Not on Doctrine. That’s the question at hand here. The Catholic Church teaches One Doctrine on the Eucharist. There are several doctrines taught throughout Protestantism. The Catholic Church teaches One Doctrine on Baptism. There are several doctrines taught throughout Protestantism. The Catholic Church has one Doctrine concerning the sacrament of marriage. There are several doctrines taught throughout Protestantism, etc. The OP did a great job in asking the question the way she did.

If no consultation with other members of the body of Christ are needed, as it seems you are indicating in your replies, then indeed why all the various views? To say “Well, we just see in part like the bible says” indicates to me that those that realize they only see in part should shut their collective pie holes because they admittedly don’t know what they are talking about since they understand only in part because they see only in part. But we don’t have that. We have the massive “only see in parts” yelling at everyone else who doesn’t see it the way they do that they are wrong. Sounds like quite the load of cow poop to me.

Rail all you want against the Catholic Church. She teaches One thing. What people do with that teaching is as individualistic as people. But the Teachings are One.
 
And when they disagreed, as they often did, who was directing them? Luther was confident that he was directed by the Holy Spirit in his view of the Eucharist, not just in his view of justification. Aren’t you really saying simply that *you *are directed by the Holy Spirit, and thus that anyone who agrees with you is directed by the Holy Spirit insofar as they do so, and not otherwise? Don’t you see how arrogant and presumptuous that appears to anyone not so fortunate as to be you?

Edwin
Exactly. I am not trying to gang up on Reformed or anything. But this is a problem (for me anyway). I know there is God, and I know that He is known through His Son, Jesus. All of the people in all the different Christian sects - yeah I don’t know so much about all that. With nothing to back me up except my own noggin; I would think that the more infused one is with the Holy Spirit the more humble one would become, the more patient, and kind, and all those ‘fruits of the spirit against which there is no law.’ I just see people that walk around with their big theological clubs as pretty far removed from the Spirit of Peace. Does that make me judgmental? Maybe. Perhaps I should shut up now.
 
And when they disagreed, as they often did, who was directing them? Luther was confident that he was directed by the Holy Spirit in his view of the Eucharist, not just in his view of justification. Aren’t you really saying simply that *you *are directed by the Holy Spirit, and thus that anyone who agrees with you is directed by the Holy Spirit insofar as they do so, and not otherwise? Don’t you see how arrogant and presumptuous that appears to anyone not so fortunate as to be you?

Edwin
I always post that we all know in part. We are sinners in process. I think you are wrong to imply that Calvinists think they know all the answers. I don’t know any Christians throughout church history who claimed to know everything. There is great tension for all Christians who try to discern the essentials from the secondary issues. Contending for the faith is a command. I don’t think the contents of the gospel are secondary issues. I will put you on the spot. Do you think the official Roman Catholic gospel is different than the gospel thay you proclaim and have hope in? Why or why not?
 
Exactly. I am not trying to gang up on Reformed or anything. But this is a problem (for me anyway). I know there is God, and I know that He is known through His Son, Jesus. All of the people in all the different Christian sects - yeah I don’t know so much about all that. With nothing to back me up except my own noggin; I would think that the more infused one is with the Holy Spirit the more humble one would become, the more patient, and kind, and all those ‘fruits of the spirit against which there is no law.’ I just see people that walk around with their big theological clubs as pretty far removed from the Spirit of Peace. Does that make me judgmental? Maybe. Perhaps I should shut up now.
How do you reconcile your post with the Council of Trent?
 
Very well. Thank you for asking.
Please help me understand your understanding of the Council of Trent. Being Roman Catholic, you must believe the decrees of the Council of Trent or you are condemned. Do you believe the Council of Trent condemns the historical Protestant gospel as a false gospel? What does the Apostle Paul write in Galatians 1 in regards to a different gospel?
 
Please help me understand your understanding of the Council of Trent. Being Roman Catholic, you must believe the decrees of the Council of Trent or you are condemned. Do you believe the Council of Trent condemns the historical Protestant gospel as a false gospel? What does the Apostle Paul write in Galatians 1 in regards to a different gospel?
Open a different thread if you want to talk about the CoTrent. This one is about the Reformers conferring or consulting with others. Now that the deflection has been deflected: back on track.

How do you reconcile the differences in Doctrine within Protestantism in light of the OP’s question? Or are you good with your replies about only seeing in part?
 
Open a different thread if you want to talk about the CoTrent. This one is about the Reformers conferring or consulting with others. Now that the deflection has been deflected: back on track.

How do you reconcile the differences in Doctrine within Protestantism in light of the OP’s question? Or are you good with your replies about only seeing in part?
I think Paul and the testmonies of Christians throughout church history all believed in knowing in part. The RCC also teaches knowing in part too on essential salvation issues such as Protestants, babies who die without baptism, and non-christian religions. God is an infinte God, and we are finite.
 
…did Luther and Calvin and the others refer or defer to a body of like minded reformers, or did they just stand up on their own with their proposed reforms and just go for it?
Do mutineers consult with anyone before they seize power? Birds of a feather flock together, but once the compass goes astray, they lose direction…just thinking out loud. 🙂
 
Do mutineers consult with anyone before they seize power? Birds of a feather flock together, but once the compass goes astray, they lose direction…just thinking out loud. 🙂
It’s a lot easier to simply slander your opponents than to actually look at the historical evidence on the matter. And before someone else chimes in with this, I’ll readily point out that this statement applies equally to Protestants and Catholics.
 
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