Did the reformers have legitimate mission?

[TertiumQuid]

Augustine argues that miracles are no certain guide compared to the authority of Holy Scripture.

Augustine (354-430): The authority of our books, which is confirmed by the agreement of so many nations, supported by a succession of apostles, bishops, and councils, is against you. Your books have no authority, for it is an authority maintained by only a few, and these the worshippers of an untruthful God and Christ. If they are not following the example of the beings they worship, their testimony must be against their own false doctrine. And, once more, common report gives a very bad account of you, and invariably asserts, in opposition to you, that Christ was of the seed of David. You did not hear the voice of the Father from heaven. You did not see the works by which Christ bore witness to Himself. The books which tell of these things you profess to receive, that you may maintain a delusive appearance of Christianity; but when anything is quoted against you, you say that the books have been tampered with. You quote the passage where Christ says, “If ye believe not me, believe the works;” and again, “I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me;” but you will not let us quote in reply such passages as these: “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think that ye have eternal life, and they are they that testify of me;” “If ye believed Moses, ye would believe me, for he wrote of me;” “They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them;” “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe though one rose from the dead.” What have you to say for yourselves? Where is your authority? If you reject these passages of Scripture, in spite of the weighty authority in their favor, what miracles can you show? However, if you did work miracles, we should be on our guard against receiving their evidence in your case; for the Lord has forewarned us: “Many false Christs and false prophets shall arise, and shall do many signs and wonders, that they may deceive, if it were possible, the very elect: behold, I have told you before.” This shows that the established authority of Scripture must outweigh every other; for it derives new confirmation from the progress of events which happen, as Scripture proves, in fulfillment of the predictions made so long before their occurrence. NPNF1: Vol. IV, Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, Book XIII, §5.

**Augustine (354-430): ** All such matters, therefore, being put out of sight, let them show their Church, if they can; not in the discourses and reports of Africans, not in the councils of their own bishops, not in the writings of any controversialists, not in fallacious signs and miracles, for even against these we are rendered by the word of the Lord prepared and cautious, but in the ordinances of the Law, in the predictions of the Prophets, in the songs of the Psalms, in the words of the very Shepherd himself, in the preachings and labours of the Evangelists, that is, in all the canonical authorities of sacred books. Nor so as to collect together and rehearse those things that are spoken obscurely, or ambiguously, or figuratively, such as each can interpret as he likes, according to his own views. For such testimonies cannot be rightly understood and expounded, unless those things that are most clearly spoken are first held by a firm faith. William Goode, The Divine Rule of Faith and Practice, Vol. 3, p. 165.

Regards,
James Swan

 

[Mickey]

Ah yes, St John Chrysostom was a glorious saint. He truly did believe in the worthiness of Sacred Scripture. But he was also a big supporter of Sacred Tradition too.

John Chrysostom
**"[Paul commands,] ‘Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or by our letter’ [2 Thess. 2:15]. From this it is clear that they did not hand down everything by letter, but there is much also that was not written. Like that which was written, the unwritten too is worthy of belief. So let us regard the tradition of the Church also as worthy of belief. Is it a tradition? Seek no further" (*Homilies on Second Thessalonians ***[A.D. 402]).

 

[Mickey]

John Chrysostom
"In our generation, in the case of him who surpassed all in ungodliness, I mean [the Emperor] Julian, many strange things happened. Thus, when the Jews were attempting to raise up again the temple at Jerusalem, fire burst out from the foundations and utterly hindered them all; and when both his treasurer and his uncle and namesake made the sacred vessels the subject of their open insolence, one was eaten with worms and gave up the ghost, the other burst apart in the middle. Moreover, the fountains failing when sacrifices were made there and the entrance of famine into the cities together with the emperor himself was a very great sign. For it is usual with God to do such things when evils are multiplied" (*Homilies on Matthew *4:2 [A.D. 391]).

 

[Mickey]

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"When he [Polycarp] had . . . finished his prayer, those who were appointed for the purpose kindled the fire [to burn him to death]. And as the flame blazed forth in great fury, we to whom it was given to witness it beheld a great miracle and have been preserved that we might report to others what then took place. For the fire, shaping itself into the form of an arch, like the sail of a ship when filled with the wind, encompassed as by a circle the body of the martyr. And he appeared within, not like flesh which is burnt, but as bread that is baked, or as gold and silver glowing in a furnace. Moreover, we perceived such a sweet odor, as if frankincense or some such precious spices had been smoking there. At length, when those wicked men perceived that his body could not be consumed by the fire, they commanded an executioner to go near and pierce him through with a dagger. And on his doing this, there came forth a dove and a great quantity of blood, so that the fire was extinguished, and all the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect" (*Martyrdom of Polycarp *15–16 [A.D. 155]).

 

[bhlincoln]

TertiumQuid:

Hi Bh Lincoln,

Chrysostom says miracles ceased…

James Swan

James,

No quote you can possibly provide can deny 2000 years of first class miracles. We have endless writings showing so, and plenty of eyewitnesses from current miracles such as Lourdes and Fatima.

BH

 

[bhlincoln]

TertiumQuid:

Augustine argues that miracles are no certain guide compared to the authority of Holy Scripture.

Augustine (354-430): However, if you did work miracles, we should be on our guard against receiving their evidence in your case; for the Lord has forewarned us: “Many false Christs and false prophets shall arise, and shall do many signs and wonders, that they may deceive, if it were possible, the very elect: behold, I have told you before.

Augustine (354-430): All such matters, therefore, being put out of sight, let them show their Church, if they can; not in the discourses and reports of Africans, not in the councils of their own bishops, not in the writings of any controversialists, not in fallacious signs and miracles…
James Swan

We are well aware of what Scripture tells us about false prophets and false Christs. But trying to group Saints over 20 centuries, from different countries, speaking different languages, and most not even knowing each other, and trying to group ALL of them that have first class miracles associated with them into the false prophets and false Christs categories is beyond absurdity.

As for your other quote, of course Scripture comes first! Miracles are simply signs that further confirm the SOURCE as being legitimate. For example, St. Peter preaches the Gospel and some listen, others ignore him or don’t take him seriously. But when God sends a first class miracle through him such as raising Tabitha from the dead, it is a sign for people to believe, and they are attracted in massive numbers. The same as Moses and Jesus.
“Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.” John 14:12

BH

 

[Eden]

St. John Chrysostom is known as “The Doctor of the Eucharist”. Here is a beautiful quote from him on the Real Presence:

St John discovered God’s glory not only when he died but when he was united to Jesus in the Eucharist. Listen to him:

**“How many in these times say: would that I could gaze upon His form, His figure, His garment, His shoes! Lo! Thou seest Him, touchest Him, eatest Him. He gives Himself to thee, not merely to look upon, but even to touch, to eat, and to receive within… Consider at Whose table thou eatest! For we are fed with that which the angels view with trepidation and which they cannot contemplate without fear because of Its splendor. We become one with Him: we become one Body and one Flesh with Christ.”… “Jesus, for the burning love He bore us, wished to unite Himself so closely to us that we should become one and the same with Him for such is the dream of true lovers.”… “Holy Communion makes us eager for virtue and prompt to practice it, at the same time imparting deep peace, and thus rendering sweet and easy the road to holiness.” **
**Source: **

doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/JCH.html

The same article states: John’s words registered, riled, and penetrated hearts and minds deeply. Those who are faithless or have sluggish faith, only a miracle can help. John asserted that miracles are for non-believers.

St. John Chrysostom on Tradition:

**" ‘Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or by our letter.’ From this it is clear that they did not hand down everything by letter, but there is much also that was not written. Like that which was written, the unwritten too is worthy of belief. So let us regard the tradition of the Church also as worthy of belief. Is it a tradition? Seek no further" (Homilies on the Second Epistle to the Thessalonians [A.D. 398-404]). **

Source: catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9010frs.asp

St. Augustine on Tradition:

**“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the apostles themselves or by plenary councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church” (*Letter to Januarius *[A.D. 400]). **

"If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel, what would you answer him when he says: ‘I do not believe’? Indeed, I would not believe in the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so" (Against the Letter of Mani [A.D. 397]).

 

[Eden]

Let us consider the words of St. John Chrysostom, (347-407), the illustrious Bishop of Constantinople, and Doctor of the Church, whose episcopal achievements are celebrated in the ancient liturgy which bears his name. He tells us: “Zeal for the salvation of souls is of so great a merit before God, that to give up all our goods to the poor, or to spend our whole life in the exercises of all sorts of austerities cannot equal the merit of it. There is no service more agreeable to God than this one. To employ one’s life in this blessed labor is more pleasing to the Divine Majesty than to suffer martyrdom. Would you not feel happy if you could spend large sums of money in corporal works of mercy? But know, that he who labors for the salvation of souls does far more; nay, the zeal of souls is of far greater merit before God . . . than the working of miracles.”
Source: olrl.org/apologetics/winsouls.shtml

To do alms is a work greater than miracles. . . . To feed the hungry in the name of Christ is a work greater than raising the dead in Christ’s name. …When thou work miracles, you are God’s debtor; when you give alms, God is your debtor." St. John Chrysostom
Source: forthelife.org/a10.htm

Marchese says: “I refrain from relating here the miracles worked and graces granted by Our Lord to those who have been devoted to His Holy Name, because St. John Chrysostom reminds me that Jesus is always named when miracles are worked by holy men; hence, to attempt to enumerate them would be to try to give a list of the countless miracles which God has performed through all the ages, either to increase the glory of His Saints or to’ plant and strengthen the Faith in the hearts of men.”
Source: catholictradition.org/holy-name1f.htm

“Then a viper “fastened on his hand. And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves: No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.” Well also was this permitted, that they should both see the thing and utter the thought, in order that, when the result ensued, there might be no disbelieving the miracle. (Chrysostom homily)
Source: stgeorge.org.mt/news_details.asp?NewsID=45

Feast: December 6. Saint Nicholas has always been one of the most popular Saints commemorated in the Eastern and Western Churches, but is now traditionally associated with Christmas. St. Nicholas is the Patron Saint of school children and of bakers and traditionally, pawnbrokers. His many miracles are reported in sermons by St. John Chrysostom and St. Bonaventure.
catholicmedia.net/halo/eng/nicholas.htm

This cult was naturally based in Scripture as a desire for the supplicatory prayers of the saints (Revelation 8), and a belief that the saints worked miracles on earth (2 Kings 13:21 and Acts 19:12). As Hapgood states: The relics of the saints which remain incorruptable on earth assure us of the special prayers for us, and the coming of the Kingdom of Glory.4 Thus the Christians worshipped Jesus (but loved) the martyrs and their relics. The term relic (reliquiae = ashes) is a classical Latin term of the “remains of dead bodies” and is applied to the bodies of martyrs, and may be the whole body or a small part of it (tantillae religuiae). Even their clothing was valued, as St. John Chrysostom relates: How great is the power of the saints. For the homage of Christians is directed not only to their words and bodies, but also to their vestments. Source: ichrusa.com/saintsalive/relic_bural.html

 

[Eden]

One more:

Eucharistic Miracles have occurred throughout the Church’s history. Saints and Fathers of the Church have noted miracles that have occurred through the Eucharist. For example, St. John Chrysostom (circa 386-397), Archbishop of Constantinople, discusses how he witnessed certain miracles involving people who had not gone to confession before going to Communion and how the Consecrated Communion Bread became as hard as stone, leaving It unable to be swallowed by the unworthy communicants.
Source: mirakles.barterview.com/

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

bhlincoln:

Jesus sent His Apostles to spread His word, they were therefore sent by authority of God himself. St. Paul also sent Timothy and Titus to help him on his missions to spread the word of Our Lord. They were sent by St. Paul, someone who was given the power by God to send them. By what authority were Luther or Calvin or other reformers sent?

Also, Moses proved his authority, Jesus did also, as did the Apostles by performing undeniable miracles in plain view. This is how God allowed the people of those days to choose them from among the false prophets. Why haven’t Luther or Calvin or other reformers shown ANY such signs while attempting to make the most drastic changes to the Church since its founding?

It’s a good question whether the Reformers did any thing more drastic than Paul. He had a lot to put up with from those who were solidly opposed to the entrance into the Church of the Gentiles without their being circumcised. He had no “mission” - apart from the vision of Christ. Strictly speaking, he was not an apostle, as he had not seen the Lord in the flesh beginning from the first day of His ministry - he had never seen Christ at all. In that respect, he was no more an apostle than you or I or anyone else on this thread ​

Jesus had confined Himself, by and large, to His own people - Paul preached to them, but also, and increasingly as time went on, to the Gentiles.

The doctrine of the Reformers is a sign, of sorts: Luther’s understanding of grace was revolutionary, because it undercut the sort of theology which tried to fit grace within reason & law and nature, by being a counter-intuitive understanding of grace. This was not only defensible, it was entirely legitimate. God justifies the unrighteous, while they are unrighteous, almost because they are unrighteous: and this shows how radically righteous the Righteous God is. Because He is Holy, He will - and does - acquit the guilty. That is what God does, and that shows Who God is. And how is this done ? Through the Son Whom the Father Loves.

Luther has often been called a religious genius - the only drawback with that, is that it focusses attention on Luther. ##

Why should we take their word without a sign as the next man in line can do the same? Which one is right?

bhlincoln
www.protestanterrors.com

However - no one sent Jesus Christians take Him at His own valuation; we cannot prove that we are right to do so, for we live by faith, not by proof. If we needed proof, we would be thinking as rationalists. ISTM that the only proof of the legitimacy of Jesus, is Jesus Himself - all that apologetic stuff is too external to be convincing. That is why reasoned argument, without the Spirit Who is the Spirit of Christ, is no good: Christian apologetic must be an apologetic “in the Spirit and with power” - God must be His own best Witness.​

So working miracles proves nothing - in fact, one could argue that His accusers had a very strong case when they called Him a deceiver. If - BTW - deceivers can work miracles, miracles are no proof one is not a deceiver.

Matthew 24.34 has been falsified, for the whole generation to which His hearers belonged, died out - and so have the 63 or so generations following. If Jesus really meant that He would return by the year 200 (we might as well be generous) - He was utterly and totally and unambiguously wrong, mistaken, incorrect, under a misconception, misinformed, less than wholly accurate, and in error. IOW - He blundered: on something of not inconsiderable importance. And one cannot wish the verse away, or cut it out of the Bible, or deny its existence - it is awkward, and it is part of the NT text. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

scylla:

As an answer to your question, these ex-Protestant Roman Catholic apologists are not striking out on their own, I don’t see them starting new churches. We are all called to evangelize, some in their conversion are more zealous and better equipped as they have been down the road of conversion.
We can all have our own ministry in the Catholic Church and be witnesses to Christ. Look at the www.biblechristiansociety.com is this a different church? or is it his ministry in which he brings people to unity with the Catholic Church.

The difference between people like Chuck Smith and a Catholic apologist is one is bringing about unity, one is striking out on his own (causing division) without legitimate mission and starting a separate church.

God Bless
Scylla

There is another - there have been quite a few reports of miracles at Calvary Chapel ​

Division can be caused by other things than striking out on one’s own - it can be caused by corruption among Christians who refuse to be corrected; who try to defend the corruption among them. If an individual is capable of such behaviour- why can a great number of us not be guilty of it ? Visible unity is only one of the ways in which the Church is united - it is quite possible that there is no unity in Christ worth discussing, when part of the Church is corrupt, and other parts are not; I don’t know. ##

 

[rjs1]

A Protestant’s Letter To God:

Dear God,

On studying history, and even Scripture, I am forced to admit that You founded one Church and left it in the keeping of Your apostles.

However, we Protestants discovered, one thousand five hundred years later, that the Church You had founded was full of mistakes. It had introduced all sorts of errors.

So we set out to fix those errors by starting our own church – er, churches. I am afraid to say that we couldn’t quite agree with each other and we have not exactly founded one church but rather hundreds, in fact several thousand, separate churches.

You see there are a few things we cannot agree about.

We could not agree about baptism. Some of us believe it’s for infants, some of us don’t. Some of us don’t even believe that baptism is needed at all.

And we could not agree about the Eucharist. Some of us think Christ is present in the Eucharist, some of us don’t and some of us don’t have a Eucharist at all.

And we could not agree about the sacraments in general. Some of us think there are just two, some of us think there are none and a few of us think there are more than two.

And we could not agree about gift of tongues. Some of us think that it is a current gift. Some of us think that it described a uniquely New Testament event that is not for now. Some of us think it is a Satanic manifestation.

And we could not agree about ordination. Some of us have a separate ordained ministry. Some of us believe that the ministry is the same as the lay people and some reject any notion of a separate leadership. Some allow women to be ordained, some believe that is unscriptural.

And we could not agree about birth control. Some of us think that artificial contraception is perfectly ok and a few of us think that it is not acceptable.

And we could not agree about abortion. Some of us think that it is murder and others of us think that it is acceptable in a number of circumstances.

And we could not agree about divorce. Some of us think that You forbade it in Scripture but most of us think that it is to be allowed when necessary.

And we could not agree about homosexuality. Some of think that You condemned the practice and others of us think that it is simply a different and equally acceptable lifestyle.

And we could not agree about the Rapture. Some of us are pre-millennial, some of us are post-millennial, some of us don’t believe in the rapture.

And we could not agree about salvation. Some of us think that once saved always saved. Others of us think that we can lose salvation by turning from God.

And we could not agree about authority. Some of us think that some of the Councils of the Church and writings of the Fathers are to guide us and others of us say that only what is directly quoted from Scripture is to be our guide. (Mind you, I don’t quite know where we got the defined doctrine of the Trinity from if it wasn’t from the Councils of the Catholic Church???)

And we could not agree about …well I had better stop, because I guess I’m starting to bore You Lord.

However, in spite of these one or two things we can’t agree about, You will be pleased to know, Lord, that we are all in agreement about one thing. The Church You originally founded, the Catholic Church, is wrong and corrupt and must be avoided at all costs.

Aren’t You glad Lord that we reformed things for You?

Yours sincerely,

A member of the Third Independent Separated Bible Apostolic Congregationalist Calvinist Reformed Non Episcopal Downtown Suburban Country Church of the New Spiritual Order