I
Isearch
Guest
Could anyone cite academic sources supporting the argument that the early martyrs claimed they had seen the Resurrected Christ and interacted with Him?
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
M
Maximus1
Guest
I have not read your study but I have seen this argument.
One thing you fail to account for, and that is distinguishable here, is the expectation,(that was reinterpreted) was constant before and after. They re-explained an already existing expectation.
In the Gospels, Jesus rides into Jeruselem on Palm Sunday into celebration and accolades.
He is tried, crucified and dead a few days later.
All these simple men would have had was questions and confusion. Not a Resurection in three days expectation…
They hid. The Peter / denial was recorded, and whatever your idea about it’s authenticity, it is absolutely consistent with what behavioral science would expect. His followers not going to the cross( save one and women).
His Apostles in hiding, with women being the first to see Jesus. An embarrassing shameful fact for men in first century Palestine. Not a fact men would record if they had a choice.
Plus, a single woman would not have had standing to testify back then. You literally needed two women to basically equal one man for a testimonial.
It is against this backdrop that you derive the most significant distinguishing fact. And here, the testimony of psychologists would be insightful.
Crucifiction itself in the first century was so horrific that it creates an involuntary primal fear that one cannot avoid. What would cause them to endanger themselves absent a significant event becomes the question. Jesus is still dead and will remain so is not a change agent.
We know the physical features. Having to lift yourself nailed continuously to stop " drowning."
Legs broken etc. But interestingly, that is only part. The visceral dread and fear is psychological as well.
First century Jews had a cultural form of modesty that was very different than mainstream people today. You see it in dress codes and practices in sects of Jews today to an extent, but only isolated. There was a dreaded fear not only of the agony, but perhaps worse, shame.
They hung you like a painting for the world to see basically naked. Women seeing you, everyone.
From the perspective of the still ground occupying observer, frightening.
Which gets all, to this point that distinguishes. Those Apostles with Jesus 3+ years or so daily. A heros welcome Palm Sunday to tried Thursday and dead Friday. No warning. Plans dashed! Scattered. Their Rabbi is dead. Mort. Gone. Everything has changed and THEY ARE HIDING AND IN MORTAL DANGER OF THE SAME.
THEY have no expectation of anything involving a Ressurection. In fact they don’t believe it initially.
For eye witnesses who know Jesus is dead( that is their only reasonable assessment) he will, like us all stay dead. For them, knowing he is dead, why would they ever change from hiding? They are not recasting an expectation. They are risking the cross on what they know to be false.( Remember we are assuming they saw nothing. Jesus is dead and gone).
One thing to be told and believe. Another to have a mass dillusion about something that was life changing horrible, that ends with the finality of death you know first hand.
One thing you fail to account for, and that is distinguishable here, is the expectation,(that was reinterpreted) was constant before and after. They re-explained an already existing expectation.
In the Gospels, Jesus rides into Jeruselem on Palm Sunday into celebration and accolades.
He is tried, crucified and dead a few days later.
All these simple men would have had was questions and confusion. Not a Resurection in three days expectation…
They hid. The Peter / denial was recorded, and whatever your idea about it’s authenticity, it is absolutely consistent with what behavioral science would expect. His followers not going to the cross( save one and women).
His Apostles in hiding, with women being the first to see Jesus. An embarrassing shameful fact for men in first century Palestine. Not a fact men would record if they had a choice.
Plus, a single woman would not have had standing to testify back then. You literally needed two women to basically equal one man for a testimonial.
It is against this backdrop that you derive the most significant distinguishing fact. And here, the testimony of psychologists would be insightful.
Crucifiction itself in the first century was so horrific that it creates an involuntary primal fear that one cannot avoid. What would cause them to endanger themselves absent a significant event becomes the question. Jesus is still dead and will remain so is not a change agent.
We know the physical features. Having to lift yourself nailed continuously to stop " drowning."
Legs broken etc. But interestingly, that is only part. The visceral dread and fear is psychological as well.
First century Jews had a cultural form of modesty that was very different than mainstream people today. You see it in dress codes and practices in sects of Jews today to an extent, but only isolated. There was a dreaded fear not only of the agony, but perhaps worse, shame.
They hung you like a painting for the world to see basically naked. Women seeing you, everyone.
From the perspective of the still ground occupying observer, frightening.
Which gets all, to this point that distinguishes. Those Apostles with Jesus 3+ years or so daily. A heros welcome Palm Sunday to tried Thursday and dead Friday. No warning. Plans dashed! Scattered. Their Rabbi is dead. Mort. Gone. Everything has changed and THEY ARE HIDING AND IN MORTAL DANGER OF THE SAME.
THEY have no expectation of anything involving a Ressurection. In fact they don’t believe it initially.
For eye witnesses who know Jesus is dead( that is their only reasonable assessment) he will, like us all stay dead. For them, knowing he is dead, why would they ever change from hiding? They are not recasting an expectation. They are risking the cross on what they know to be false.( Remember we are assuming they saw nothing. Jesus is dead and gone).
One thing to be told and believe. Another to have a mass dillusion about something that was life changing horrible, that ends with the finality of death you know first hand.
Last edited:
M
Maximus1
Guest
Modern psychology would need an event to explain why the core group would change their behavior, manufacture a story, AND RISK A DANGER that involuntarily casuses primal terror. Psychology could never justify an explanation for the change from hiding without a significant precipitating event.
E
edwest211
Guest
These questions arise from secularist/naturalist sources and from those who want to attack religion in general or Christianity in particular. But, there are those seeking answers from a non-confrontational position as well. Of course, secular sources are sometimes given more credibility about this while the Church is not seen as credible.
L
Lane
Guest
Dear God doesn’t anyone believe the bible anymore !? It’s in scripture he was raised from the dead ! Alleluia !!!
Same with the global flood
It happened !!!
The earth was wiped out for their wickedness !!!
God saved Noah and his family and 2 of every land animal through the waters
It’s the prefigurement of baptism !!
Where is our faith ?!?!?!
Same with the global flood
It happened !!!
The earth was wiped out for their wickedness !!!
God saved Noah and his family and 2 of every land animal through the waters
It’s the prefigurement of baptism !!
Where is our faith ?!?!?!
P
Prodigal1984
Guest
Except the notion of a person resurrecting from the dead in the fashion Jesus is said to have in the Gospels is not something any first century Jew would have conceived of. There was a belief in the resurrection at the last day( by Pharisees and Essenes, not Saducees), but not in the way Christ did. It is why his disciples at first were confused as to why if he was the messiah he was not doing things in the way which were expected.
Jesus of Nazareth is by far not the only one who was believed to have been the messiah in first century Palestine. In fact it was quite widespread at the time. Confer Josephus Anitquities of the Jews. The fact is, if Jesus was just another false messiah claimant, the followers would have done exactly what the followers of failed messiahs did. Found someone else to follow( like some of Christs did following John the Baptists beheading), or just go home back to the former way of life. Or have been killed along with him. Christs Apostles went from being frankly scared to not fearing death at all.
As for did the Resurrection evolving over time, yes it did. It is called heresies. And there were many of them then just as there is today. From Marcion to Joseph Smith and a thousand in between you have people distorting the truth of the Resurrection and what Christs mission on earth meant for our salvation.
Jesus of Nazareth is by far not the only one who was believed to have been the messiah in first century Palestine. In fact it was quite widespread at the time. Confer Josephus Anitquities of the Jews. The fact is, if Jesus was just another false messiah claimant, the followers would have done exactly what the followers of failed messiahs did. Found someone else to follow( like some of Christs did following John the Baptists beheading), or just go home back to the former way of life. Or have been killed along with him. Christs Apostles went from being frankly scared to not fearing death at all.
As for did the Resurrection evolving over time, yes it did. It is called heresies. And there were many of them then just as there is today. From Marcion to Joseph Smith and a thousand in between you have people distorting the truth of the Resurrection and what Christs mission on earth meant for our salvation.
Last edited:
P
PetraG
Guest
No. Prophesy isn’t future-telling. Prophesy is truth-telling. Of course it matters what the prophesies were and who heard them and how they responded, and what part of the truth being told they even understood.I have also heard prophecy is meant to be conditional on how we act in response to that prophecy. Some would object to say these would be ad hoc/post hoc origins of the prophecy and its interpretation: “if all prophecy is conditional, it doesn’t really even matter what the prophecies were in the first place; at least not as long as you can come up with some rationale to explain away their non-fulfillment.”
Sometimes, prophesy is reminding people of how they have forgotten the profound truths that they are responsible for knowing and need to return to living. Sometimes, though, prophesy is telling people about a perception of the reality around them that they cannot comprehend immediately–like a mother or father telling their children about truths that they need to remember even though they are too innocent to fully understand the import of what is being said by adults who have experiences and insights that a child couldn’t begin to understand. We’re not children, but we can be forgetful adults or we can be inexperienced adults or adults who lack insight into the importance of what is going on around us.
I don’t know what Mark 13:24-27 means, not fully, in terms of what the Second Coming is going to be like. I feel fairly satisfied by my understanding of other things Our Lord said that I don’t need to fully understand what the Second Coming is going to be like, and won’t need that information until the time comes. All I need to know, the Church teaches. I may take a lifetime to really comprehend it, but I do not have to be concerned that I haven’t been given all the truth I need in order to be ready for the Lord when He comes.
The Pharisees and Sadducees came and, to test him, asked him to show them a sign from heaven.He said to them in reply,
“In the evening you say, ‘Tomorrow will be fair, for the sky is red’; and, in the morning, ‘Today will be stormy, for the sky is red and threatening.’ You know how to judge the appearance of the sky, but you cannot judge the signs of the times. An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah.”
Then he left them and went away.
Matt 16:1-4
Last edited:
E
edwest211
Guest
Act 5:38
New International Version
Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail.
New Living Translation
“So my advice is, leave these men alone. Let them go. If they are planning and doing these things merely on their own, it will soon be overthrown.
English Standard Version
So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail;
39
New International Version
But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."
New Living Translation
But if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God!”
English Standard Version
but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!” So they took his advice,
40
New International Version
His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
New Living Translation
The others accepted his advice. They called in the apostles and had them flogged. Then they ordered them never again to speak in the name of Jesus, and they let them go.
English Standard Version
and when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
New International Version
Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail.
New Living Translation
“So my advice is, leave these men alone. Let them go. If they are planning and doing these things merely on their own, it will soon be overthrown.
English Standard Version
So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail;
39
New International Version
But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."
New Living Translation
But if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God!”
English Standard Version
but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!” So they took his advice,
40
New International Version
His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
New Living Translation
The others accepted his advice. They called in the apostles and had them flogged. Then they ordered them never again to speak in the name of Jesus, and they let them go.
English Standard Version
and when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
I
Isearch
Guest
This is what I’m worried about: even if there were heresies about the Resurrection in the days of the early Church, those earliest heretical doctrines must contain or, at least, not deny these two points: the disappearance of Jesus from the tomb and His appearance to His disciples, notwithstanding the heresies’ erroneous explanations of these two points. This is to give reassurance that the Resurrection truly had happened and that the heretics didn’t and couldn’t simply deny it had happened. If the Resurrection truly had happened, then Christianity is the truer religion over, at least, Judaism.
Last edited:
P
Prodigal1984
Guest
One would think if Christ didn’t rise, some Jewish leader would have pointed out that his tomb or wherever he was is where he is.
Jews from the time are silent on this. You see no writing actually refuting the claims of the early Church. It would have been expected.
Jews from the time are silent on this. You see no writing actually refuting the claims of the early Church. It would have been expected.
E
edwest211
Guest
Christ’s disciples were not learned as men are today but they were interested in the truth - what actually happened.
1 Corinthians 15:13
New International Version
If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
New Living Translation
For if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised either.
English Standard Version
But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raise
14
New International Version
And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
New Living Translation
And if Christ has not been raised, then all our preaching is useless, and your faith is useless.
English Standard Version
And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
15
New International Version
More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
New Living Translation
And we apostles would all be lying about God—for we have said that God raised Christ from the grave. But that can’t be true if there is no resurrection of the dead.
English Standard Version
We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
1 Corinthians 15:13
New International Version
If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
New Living Translation
For if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised either.
English Standard Version
But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raise
14
New International Version
And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
New Living Translation
And if Christ has not been raised, then all our preaching is useless, and your faith is useless.
English Standard Version
And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
15
New International Version
More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
New Living Translation
And we apostles would all be lying about God—for we have said that God raised Christ from the grave. But that can’t be true if there is no resurrection of the dead.
English Standard Version
We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.