Did the Vatican house and helped Nazi criminals?

[tiagolc]

SPOIER ALERT - If you are reading “TIME’S ARROW” from MARTIN AMIS I would recomend not reading the post - SPOILER ALERT

I’m reading the book “Time’s Arrow” from Martin Amis and in certain part of the book, the protagonist (Nazi doctor at Auschwitz) goes to the Vatican after the war where he is housed for a few weeks and the Vatican helps him get a new name. I have heard that this is kind of a taboo topic and I want someone to explain to me what really happened.

 

[Kaninchen]

SPOIER ALERT - If you are reading “TIME’S ARROW” from MARTIN AMIS I would recomend not reading the post - SPOILER ALERT

I’m reading the book “Time’s Arrow” from Martin Amis and in certain part of the book, the protagonist (Nazi doctor at Auschwitz) goes to the Vatican after the war where he is housed for a few weeks and the Vatican helps him get a new name. I have heard that this is kind of a taboo topic and I want someone to explain to me what really happened.

I think it rather depends on what one means by ‘the Vatican’. There’s a big difference between saying that ‘the Vatican’ were involved in running one or more ratlines and saying that there might have been somebody who worked at ‘the Vatican’ who may have been involved in one or more.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Ummmm, you do realize, don’t you, that this is a work of fiction? None of the principal characters were ever real people. There was never such a person as “Odilo Unverdorben” (aka the ironically ridiculous “Tod Friendly”) or “Reverend Nicholas Kreditor.”

OK, Adolf Eichmann was a real (nasty) guy. But there was never a “Uncle Pepi” (Josef Mengele) who could resurrect the dead from their ashes or bones.

Are you asking us to provide a serious answer to a fictional book?

I don’t know how we could do that.

 

[Mystophilus]

SPOIER ALERT - If you are reading “TIME’S ARROW” from MARTIN AMIS I would recomend not reading the post - SPOILER ALERT

I’m reading the book “Time’s Arrow” from Martin Amis and in certain part of the book, the protagonist (Nazi doctor at Auschwitz) goes to the Vatican after the war where he is housed for a few weeks and the Vatican helps him get a new name. I have heard that this is kind of a taboo topic and I want someone to explain to me what really happened.

I don’t know about the history of this, but, given the rite of Confession, and the seal attached thereto, couldn’t any war criminal who returned/converted to Catholicism confess his/her sins in that situation and be safe in the Church?

 

[DavidFilmer]

I don’t know about the history of this, but, given the rite of Confession, and the seal attached thereto, couldn’t any war criminal who returned/converted to Catholicism confess his/her sins in that situation and be safe in the Church?

I don’t know what you mean by “safe.” If you mean (as the OP implies) that the Office of the Holy See would assist a (reformed) Nazi war criminal by providing him false credentials, then we are getting into the realm of fiction. Which is what this book is (and the book itself never claims to be factual).

This author has written (according to the forward in this book) fourteen prior works of fiction, and seven prior works which are claimed as non-fiction (but include “Invasion of the Space Invaders”).

 

[BernadetteM]

I have always wondered where all the Lutheran Bishops, clergy and members were during this time.

There are many many Lutherans in Germany, but I guess they get a pass as the only church or organization I have seen the media or people go after, is the Catholic Church. It is obvious that they want to destroy it and fear it, as I believe they know that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ started.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Exiled_Child]

The answer is no.

The Vatican was actually the best friend European Jews had during WWII, despite some Soviet propaganda to the contrary.

Also, just a tremendous amount of garbage has been written about WWII, and one needs to be hyper-vigilant when one encounters anti-Catholic diatribes penned by the various schools of revisionism.

 

[unstoppable_II]

… the only church or organization I have seen the media or people go after, is the Catholic Church.
…

Funny [strange] thing about that.

 

[Dorothy]

I have always wondered where all the Lutheran Bishops, clergy and members were during this time.

There are many many Lutherans in Germany, but I guess they get a pass as the only church or organization I have seen the media or people go after, is the Catholic Church. It is obvious that they want to destroy it and fear it, as I believe they know that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ started.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Yes, those in the media deceived by Satan want to destroy the Catholic Church. The teachings of the Church contain the fullness of truth.

It is no wonder when Satanists desire to desecrate the Sacred Host that they get the Host from a Catholic Church.

 

[tiagolc]

I know it’s a work of fiction but that part is written in a way that implies that you knew the Vatican did that, like if it was a global truth. Even though I know this book of fictional, I have also heard about this more than once. The author tries to justify it though, he writes that the priest helping Odilo says “We help the onces who need, not the ones who deserve”.

 

[zz912]

The answer is “No”. The truth is actually the opposite. The Church specifically helped many Jews to safety, and actually provided documents and baptismal certificates to many Jews to help them escape.

This attack on the Church began with Soviet propoganda, a play that I can’t remember the name of, in the 1960’s or so. It took on a urban legend quality, and people didn’t bother to actually investigate the truth. Then a decade or two ago there was a trash book called “Hitler’s Pope” that built upon this Soviet propaganda to trash Pius XII. It was full of lies, calumny and slander. Pius XII was a VERY good friend of the Jews and helped them immensely during the war.

 

[unstoppable_II]

…
This attack on the Church began with Soviet propoganda, a play that I can’t remember the name of, in the 1960’s or so. …

It was called The Deputy. The Catholic League website has quite a write-up on it, plus other propaganda topics like the Inquisition and the Galileo affair. You might have to do some searching, but fortunately they have a search engine.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I have also heard about this more than once.

Wait, you have actually heard that the Church forged passports for war criminals? You have heard this more than once? Dood, you hang out with a strange crowd of conspiracy theorist tin-foil-helmet kooks.

How would war criminals even know that the Vatican would do such a thing for them? How would the Vatican “get the word out” to men who are all in hiding without alerting everybody else? Or do war criminals just think to themselves, “hey, I bet if I go to the Vatican, they’ll forge me a passport”

This is Jack Chick comic stuff. Nobody in his right mind (regardless of his religion) would believe that for an instant. It’s simply ridiculous. The Vatican does not have forgers on staff (or assassins or any other wacky Jack Chick stuff).

It’s a plot device for a work of fiction, and nothing more.

 

[Mystophilus]

I don’t know what you mean by “safe.” If you mean (as the OP implies) that the Office of the Holy See would assist a (reformed) Nazi war criminal by providing him false credentials, then we are getting into the realm of fiction.

What I was thinking was that our hypothetical figure is guilty of crimes which will incur the death penalty from the International Court of Justice. However, he makes his way to the Vatican, confesses to a priest, and is then absolved.

As I understand it, the priest cannot then hand him over to the ICJ, or even encourage him to surrender himself to them, given that such an action will result in his death. Does the priest/Church then have any option other than ushering him into hiding somewhere?

 

[MarkInOregon]

What I was thinking was that our hypothetical figure is guilty of crimes which will incur the death penalty from the International Court of Justice. However, he makes his way to the Vatican, confesses to a priest, and is then absolved.

As I understand it, the priest cannot then hand him over to the ICJ, or even encourage him to surrender himself to them, given that such an action will result in his death. Does the priest/Church then have any option other than ushering him into hiding somewhere?

That would not be my understanding. He can be absolved but there is still the price to be paid for his sin–I can see no reason why the confessor wouldn’t encourage him to turn himself in–the confessor doesn’t have the power to force him that is true–just as my confessor can’t force me to perform the penance he gives me. Our actions have consequences which must be paid. The Church does not teach that the death penalty is always and everywhere wrong–so that would not be a reason for sheltering someone. Protecting someone from an unjust and evil power bent on killing the innocent (i.e. protecting Jews from the Nazi’s which was done) is a different story. The Nazi war criminal while forgiven – still must pay the price for his actions. Perhaps you don’t fully understand the nature of confession?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[unstoppable_II]

Wait, you have actually heard that the Church forged passports for war criminals? You have heard this more than once? Dood, you hang out with a strange crowd of conspiracy theorist tin-foil-helmet kooks.

How would war criminals even know that the Vatican would do such a thing for them? How would the Vatican “get the word out” to men who are all in hiding without alerting everybody else? Or do war criminals just think to themselves, “hey, I bet if I go to the Vatican, they’ll forge me a passport”

This is Jack Chick comic stuff. Nobody in his right mind (regardless of his religion) would believe that for an instant. It’s simply ridiculous. The Vatican does not have forgers on staff (or assassins or any other wacky Jack Chick stuff).

It’s a plot device for a work of fiction, and nothing more.

Now, hold on a sec. There are claims more fantastic than the above that are believed. For example, I have heard long ago that there are three things in the Vatican cellars: 1) gold, waiting for the price of gold to go up; 2) wine, waiting for the price of wine to go up; and, 3) the bodies of aborted babies conceived by nuns. Only a few years ago there was a thread on this forum about “anti-Catholic propaganda you have heard.” The response was huge.

Another example: when I was only about 16, my own father, a Catholic, told me he knew a “top secret” [bad of course] about the Vatican. Even at 16, I was savvy enough to ask him how he knew about it if it was a secret. Answer: he heard it from some Masons he worked with.

I think it was Winston Churchill who said, “A lie can circle the globe before the truth has a chance to put its pants on.”

Anyway, I got a good chuckle out of your post.

 

[Mystophilus]

Perhaps you don’t fully understand the nature of confession?

I am willing to be that that is true, not least since I also thought that the Catholic Church was firmly against the death penalty.

 

[DavidFilmer]

As I understand it, the priest cannot then hand him over to the ICJ, or even encourage him to surrender himself to them, given that such an action will result in his death. Does the priest/Church then have any option other than ushering him into hiding somewhere?

The only role of the priest is to pronounce absolution. Once the penitent leaves the Confessional, the priest’s role is complete. The priest has no obligation (and surely is prohibited from) assisting the penitent to create false credentials and evade civil justice, even if that might include the death penalty (which the Catholic Church does NOT categorically condemn, despite popular opinion to the contrary).

If a person confesses a gambling habit, and he is ten thousand dollars in debt, the priest can absolve the sin, but the priest does not need to pay the debt. There’s no obligation for the priest to engage in any sort of cover-up or subterfuge on behalf of the penitent (other than maintaining the Seal of the Confessional and not revealing what was confessed).

 

[DavidFilmer]

I am willing to be that that is true, not least since I also thought that the Catholic Church was firmly against the death penalty.

Your thinking is only somewhat correct. The Church does not categorically oppose the death penalty, but considers it generally unnecessary in developed jurisdictions.

From the Catechism:

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”

But, even if someone were to face an “unnecessary” execution, the Church cannot engage in dishonest conduct to allow the person to evade civil justice. This is an “ends justify the (sinful) means” which the Church has always proscribed.

 

[YADA]

SPOIER ALERT - If you are reading “TIME’S ARROW” from MARTIN AMIS I would recomend not reading the post - SPOILER ALERT

I’m reading the book “Time’s Arrow” from Martin Amis and in certain part of the book, the protagonist (Nazi doctor at Auschwitz) goes to the Vatican after the war where he is housed for a few weeks and the Vatican helps him get a new name. I have heard that this is kind of a taboo topic and I want someone to explain to me what really happened.

See this link … spend some time - read the many pages … this reflects the reality of the Vatican during the War …

msgrhughoflaherty.50webs.com/index.html

And this book might be a better read - amazon.com/Before-Dawn-Autobiographical-Reflections-Eugenio/dp/1586172875