Did the Virgin Mary appear to Socrates?

[Abba]

I know this may sound radical but…

In the Crito a woman dressed in white appeared to Socrates. He understood the woman to have told him that he would die in three days. The thought accurred to me that perhaps it was the Virgin Mary that appeared to Socrates.

The Virgin Mary is not bound to time, so why not?

classics.mit.edu/Plato/crito.html

 

[FreeSmith]

The Virgin Mary is not bound to time, so why not?

classics.mit.edu/Plato/crito.html

Well, I have never heard of that before. Can you give us any references on that one?

 

[CWBetts]

I know this may sound radical but…

In the Crito a woman dressed in white appeared to Socrates. He understood the woman to have told him that he would die in three days. The thought accurred to me that perhaps it was the Virgin Mary that appeared to Socrates.

The Virgin Mary is not bound to time, so why not?

classics.mit.edu/Plato/crito.html

True the Virgin Mary is not bout to our time, but she is bound to time. That being said, I highly doubt that the Blessed Mother would appear to a pagan only to tell him when he would die. When the Blessed Mother appears, it seems to me that her message is much more profound than that.

 

[Abba]

Well, I have never heard of that before. Can you give us any references on that one?

Yours truly. It came out of my little head.

 

[Abba]

True the Virgin Mary is not bout to our time, but she is bound to time.

I don’t understand. There is only one time - time. I would think. So, if she is not bound to time then she is not bound to all the time.

 

[cathdoki]

True the Virgin Mary is not bout to our time, but she is bound to time. That being said, I highly doubt that the Blessed Mother would appear to a pagan only to tell him when he would die. When the Blessed Mother appears, it seems to me that her message is much more profound than that.

I don’t think the Blessed Mother could have appeared to Socrates before her birth. That would seem to be something reserved for saints that are already born, died, then became saints. And even then, God had very few that we know of in heaven before the death and resurrection of Christ. We know of Moses and Elijah, but I’m not sure of how many others.

 

[cathdoki]

I don’t understand. There is only one time - time. I would think. So, if she is not bound to time then she is not bound to all the time.

I don’t think time exists in heaven, does it? That would make her bound to the time of her birth and thereafter.

 

[Abba]

I don’t think time exists in heaven, does it? That would make her bound to the time of her birth and thereafter.

Well, no, time does not exist in heaven. The way I understand is that creation is in time. God is outside of time. I would think that Our Blessed Mother Mary is too and if so, then she could have appeared to Socrates.

 

[CWBetts]

I don’t understand. There is only one time - time. I would think. So, if she is not bound to time then she is not bound to all the time.

This is a difficult concept because we are bound to time. If the Blessed Virgin was not bound to time at all, then what you are saying is she is eternal. Only God is eternal. The Blessed mother, being a creation, is bound to time in that there was an instance when she did not yet exist. The same can be said of angels, the Saints, those who have yet to shed our mortal coil, and who have yet to taste life. So in some way Mary is still bound to time due to the fact that she is a creation.

 

[Abba]

This is a difficult concept because we are bound to time. If the Blessed Virgin was not bound to time at all, then what you are saying is she is eternal. Only God is eternal. The Blessed mother, being a creation, is bound to time in that there was an instance when she did not yet exist. The same can be said of angels, the Saints, those who have yet to shed our mortal coil, and who have yet to taste life. So in some way Mary is still bound to time due to the fact that she is a creation.

I think that you have a point there. But, she could have asked for permission to trascend time just that once for Socrates. She does trascend (is that is the correct word) space and look at the miracles she performed at Fatima. She is Queen of Heaven and I bet Our Lord Jesus would allow her.

Socrates was a great man and there is a lot more to an apparition than the mere words spoke.

Besides, why would Satan or demons want to do that? Isn’t only Jesus that knows when we are going to die?

 

[cathdoki]

Well, no, time does not exist in heaven. The way I understand is that creation is in time. God is outside of time. I would think that Our Blessed Mother Mary is too and if so, then she could have appeared to Socrates.

Only God is outside of time. Creation is inside of time. Mary was born inside of time. Therefore she could not have appeared before her birth. Only God is eternal.

 

[cathdoki]

I think that you have a point there. But, she could have asked for permission to trascend time just that once for Socrates. She does trascend (is that is the correct word) space and look at the miracles she performed at Fatima. She is Queen of Heaven and I bet Our Lord Jesus would allow her.

Socrates was a great man and there is a lot more to an apparition than the mere words spoke.

Besides, why would Satan or demons want to do that? Isn’t only Jesus that knows when we are going to die?

I understand what you are saying. But there is a simple test. Did she tell Socrates of the One True God? Did she convince Socrates to abandon paganism? In all apparitions her purpose has been to bring people to God. What good is there in just telling someone they are going to die and not tell about the One True God?

 

[Abba]

Only God is outside of time. Creation is inside of time. Mary was born inside of time. Therefore she could not have appeared before her birth. Only God is eternal.

Is heaven outside of time? Are the angels and saints existing outside of time now?

How about the souls in purgatory, are they existing outside of time?

 

[cathdoki]

Is heaven outside of time? Are the angels and saints existing outside of time now?

How about the souls in purgatory, are they existing outside of time?

Saints and angels are part of creation. Creation is inside time.

Did Mary do what she does in all documented apparitions? Tell Socrates of the One True God. She only appears for purposes as such.

Off to Mass.

 

[Abba]

This is a difficult concept because we are bound to time. If the Blessed Virgin was not bound to time at all, then what you are saying is she is eternal. Only God is eternal.

I understand that Our Lady is not eternal and that she is a creature. The way I envision is that she was born in time and lived out her life on this earth and went to heaven where Our Lord made her Queen of Heaven. Once in Heaven she is not bound to time even though as a creature she was born in time. The way I understand it is that Heaven is outside of our time.

Kind of like, we are in a capsule where time exists and God and Heaven are outside of it. But, it does not mean that the saints and angels are eternal. But, they are simply outside of our time. Do you see what I am trying to say. To say that, the saints and angels in heaven are outside of Time now even though they are not eternal.

I imagine it something like look at the universe from a distance and the universe is in time and the angels and saints with God are existing outside of time. Like, let’s say, a fish tank. There are fishes in the tank and then there are does that are not…

 

[scottywolf777]

My theory after reading the actual dialogue is that it was probably an angel, fallen or unfallen since their task implied in the greek name given them (angeloi) is to be messengers either for God or Satan as the case may be.
God is Lord of time and space and time as we know it according to Augustine, time only exisits between Alpha (the Creation) and Omega (the end of the world) God transcends that and therefore is able to transcend time. Since in Our Lady’s visits she has always had the ability to deliver the message in the local language inspite of the fact that the historical Mary would probably have spoken Hebrew and Aramaic probably Greek and maybe a smattering of Latin. Yet at Guadalupe, Our Lady spoke Nahuatl at Lourdes she began in French and switched to the Patois dialect. God has given her the ability to go beyond her natural abilities so perhaps God could suspend the time barrier.
For Our Lady to travel back several centuries before her birth puts us into the realm of time travel with or without a flux capacitor or a tardis or some other time travelling device. An interesting question follows this," would Socrates being warned of immanent death be part of a time paradox?

 

[Abba]

Well, I have never heard of that before. Can you give us any references on that one?

I apologize FreeSmith,

I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking about who came up with the idea of this possibility. I now see that you are asking about the Virgin Mary being outside of time. Well, I guess this is what can be answered here. Is she outside of our time without being eternal? I don’t see why it would necessarily mean that she would have to be eternal. She and all the angels and saints could simply be outside of time without having to be eternal…

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Mary existed before she was born I believe.

 

[Abba]

What happened to AdvocatusFidei’s post? I went to the kitchen to prepare sandwiches for my kids and return to respond to your post and poof! It’s gone. Oh, well.

What I wanted to say is that I agree. I think Mary could have appeared to Socrates and there are noble reasons for the occassion. My personal understanding is that Socrates cleared the way for the coming of the Lord and he and Plato surpassed knowledge in such a way that only with God’s blessings could they have done so.

P.s.
Also, I have found a solution for a Platonic problem that has not been solved. I carried the problem with me for many years and I think that I have resolved it. I was thinking of someday publishing it in a philosophical journal but that’s a dream. I am not a good writer at all nor do I do well with the language of logic. So, I think that I will publish it here someday. Stay tuned. For those of you who like to give credit; just note Abba@CAF.

 

[CWBetts]

I think that you have a point there. But, she could have asked for permission to trascend time just that once for Socrates. She does trascend (is that is the correct word) space and look at the miracles she performed at Fatima. She is Queen of Heaven and I bet Our Lord Jesus would allow her.

Socrates was a great man and there is a lot more to an apparition than the mere words spoke.

Besides, why would Satan or demons want to do that? Isn’t only Jesus that knows when we are going to die?

To what end? Mary only appears to direct people to her son. Methinks you may be elevating Socrates to some kind of sainthood. Though Socratic thought is valuable, this is not enough for canonization. As far as a “great man” he was not. He was intelligent, but that is not a mark of greatness.