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patrick457
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“Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.”
Did they really eat the apple?
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fhansen
Guest
IMO Adam & Eve “knew” good and evil by their consciences, in the same sense that we know that it’s not good, that it’s evil, to torture and kill someone by virtue of our being instinctively repulsed by such acts, unless that “law” has been overridden, ignored, or compromised in us, which free will gives us the ability to do. The same goes for pedophilia, bullying, rape, etc, etc-even lying. But good and evil would not be consciously known or identifiable as separate realities until evil was literally known, i.e. experienced, because there would be no reason to identify them; in Adam & Eve’s state of original innocence these sins wouldn’t even occur to them, much less occur to them to commit; they were naturally not part of Adam & Eve’s world.
Once the first and most basic sin was committed, however, that sin of simple disobedience of the law-giver, any and all sins were made possible, because all laws were then deniable. This, by itself, placed them in an unnatural and awkward position, with shame being one of the first consequences-they now stood apart from their maker in some capacity, outside of His will, outside of truth, their very own natures compromised. This was the first evil that they knew: creation unaligned with its creator, outside of the truth/will of the universe so to speak.
There was no good reason for breaching the first command, no good reason to disobey God, other than to overestimate their own role along with their own “value”. Perhaps the only* status* they thought they could live with was the ultimate one-that of being God; they could not accept the creature-creator relationship and the inferior position it placed them in, no matter how great of a being they were otherwise created to be. IOW pride, self-love on steroids, developed and got the better of them -and drove their actions.
And presumably God, not desiring Adam & Eve to sin while foreknowing that they would, nonetheless deemed it better that they and their offspring should experience the consequences of being outside of His will, exiled from Eden and the innocence they were created in, than to forego creating them at all. He had a plan. And by far most of us would agree, I’d think, that existence, even in this messed up world, is better than the alternative, even as we might enjoy shaking our fist at the God who made it, whether or not we claim to be certain of His existence.
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grannymh
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Perhaps the problem revolves around the existence of one Divine God as the Creator of our material world and its amazing inhabitants.
In respect of those who do not believe in a Divine God as taught by the Catholic Church, may I kindly suggest using the theatrical audience position of a “willing suspension of disbelief.” Google starts with this link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief
The author of the first three chapters of Genesis is writing for all peoples. Therefore, he speaks of one powerful God with none equal to Him. (Genesis 1:1-25) Philosophically and practically there can be only one unequaled Divine God. What happened is that this almighty transcendent Pure Spirit God created a material creature, man, in His spiritual image. We can discuss this later. For now, the prominent fact is that Adam is a whale of a difference from his Maker.
If Adam were equal to his Creator, then there would be war of the gods to determine who is on top. There is no war of multiple gods in the first three chapters of Genesis. Therefore, Adam has the choice to live in free friendship submission to God or to choose “himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 398)
The evidence for “against his own good” is Genesis 2: 15-17.
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The LORD God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.
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The LORD God gave the man this order: You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden
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except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.
Thoughts, please.
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Vico
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The primeval act was pride demonstrated in disobediance.
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joseie
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What I wonder in this context is this: If Adam,who ,unlike us was not born with the curse of the original sin and who was directly under the supervision and care of God ,sinned and that too such a grave sin with so much disastrous effect,can we be faulted for committing sins of a lesser order?Or at least ,won’t God forgive us for the sins without throwing us into hell?
It is presumed that Adam will be definetly in hell having committed the most serious sin evenwhile living in the most favorable situation.
It is presumed that Adam will be definetly in hell having committed the most serious sin evenwhile living in the most favorable situation.
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Vico
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God did not misguide them for he gave them the command. They did not obey that command, which was known, so there was disobedience.
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fhansen
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But it is not at all presumed that Adam is in hell. And, interestingly, the original sin is not even considered to be the worst of sins, even though it was the entrance-way to following sin in general. From the Summa, 2nd part of part two, ques 163:
** On the contrary, Origen says [Peri Archon i, 3: “I think that a man who stands on the highest step of perfection cannot fail or fall suddenly: this can happen only by degrees and little by little.” Now our first parents were established on the highest and perfect grade. Therefore their first sin was not the greatest of all sins.
I answer that, There is a twofold gravity to be observed in sin. one results from the very species of the sin: thus we say that adultery is a graver sin than simple fornication. The other gravity of sin results from some circumstance of place, person, or time. The former gravity is more essential to sin and is of greater moment: hence a sin is said to be grave in respect of this gravity rather than of the other. Accordingly we must say that the first man’s sin was not graver than all other sins of men, as regards the species of the sin. For though pride, of its genus, has a certain pre-eminence over other sins, yet the pride whereby one denies or blasphemes God is greater than the pride whereby one covets God’s likeness inordinately, such as the pride of our first parents, as stated (2).
But if we consider the circumstances of the persons who sinned, that sin was most grave on account of the perfection of their state. We must accordingly conclude that this sin was most grievous relatively but not simply.****
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grannymh
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**Calling CAF posters **
**who have the information about the saints Adam and Eve **
and their traditional Feast Day!!!
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Usagi
Guest
Compared to immortality, 930 years is nothing.
More importantly, the moment he did it, it killed his formerly harmonious relationships with God and with Eve.
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truetofaith
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My Bible says Eve saw the tree to be good for food & obtaining Wisdom…so you say she ate the snake…ug!
I see no harm in such a view!
This website is the pits!!!
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truetofaith
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Adam & Eve were to live forever, not only 930 years! Comprende!
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joseie
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It was not spiritual death that was warned ? or both? or only physical death?.If both ,how come one happened 930 years later ?Seems that actually nothing happened as said by satan and Adam died a natural death. God never said that he will live for ever.
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Usagi
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Please do not confuse joseie’s highly unorthodox view with anything promoted by “this website.”My Bible says Eve saw the tree to be good for food & obtaining Wisdom…so you say she ate the snake…ug!
I see no harm in such a view!
This website is the pits!!!
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patrick457
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Au contraire, if Adam didn’t eat the fruit, that little phrase wouldn’t exist.
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Usagi
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Part of the point of the story (in its original form as an origin myth) is to explain why humans die, as well as why the world involves pain and labor and unpleasantness. According to the story, we did that. We broke the world.
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grannymh
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Adam & Eve are destined for heaven where they would be in joy eternal. The Catholic Church has not officially determined how they would get to heaven if Adam had remained faithful to God and not committed his Original Sin. “But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.” (CCC 404) The Sacrament of Baptism restores the State of Original Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace.
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grannymh
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When one takes a realistic look at the basics in Genesis first three chapters – one can understand these paragraphs from the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church Second Edition.
**CCC 396 **God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: “for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.” The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.
**CCC 1730 **God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.
**CCC 397 **Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.
**CCC 398 **Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.
**CCC 397 **Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.
**CCC 398 **Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.
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joseie
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So you yourself have determined that they are destined for heaven? There is nothing whatsoever either directly or indirectly that after living for some time in Eden they will be taken to heaven.More over why they require a heaven and what is the advantage of leaving Eden for heaven? Nothing !In Eden they were under the direct presence ,care and supervision of God.Plus they could do so many interesting things in Eden which may not be possible in heaven.Your idea falls flat.
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grannymh
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Regarding the duplication in post 82.
Here is the proper paragraph 398.
**CCC 398 **In that sin man *preferred *himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.
Thank you for understanding.
Here is the proper paragraph 398.
**CCC 398 **In that sin man *preferred *himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.
Thank you for understanding.
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Vico
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God gave them all that was needed. They pridefully choose themselves, against God.
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