Did they really eat the apple?

[LiamQ]

…was there some primeval act that caused original sin?

It wasn’t the apple in the tree, it was the pair on the floor.

 

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by truetofaith forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
I always learned that the Catholic Church taught that Adam & Eve knew that whatever they did would affect all of humanity.

Does the church teach this?

And if so, where does this teaching originate? It’s not in the scripture. The Jewish people do not seem to interpret it this way (do they?) and it was part of their holy scriptures at least a thousand years earlier, yes?

Where does it come from? And when? And by whom?

.

In Genesis 1: 28, God specifically tells Eve and Adam that eventually they will fill the earth with their descendants. Too often, we focus on that and consequently miss the part where God first blesses them. This blessing flows from Genesis 1: 27 where it is evident that Eve and Adam are a new different creation. Notice the dramatic shift from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1: 26-27 The result is that they understand that the words “be fertile and multiply” mean that they will transmit their nature to their descendants. Adam knew that his disobedience would affect humanity’s relationship with the Divine Creator. (Genesis 2: 15-17) When Adam freely shattered his relationship with his Creator, his descendants would then be deprived of [Adam’s] State of Original Holiness and Justice. (CCC 404-405)

 

[Vico]

Does the church teach this?

And if so, where does this teaching originate? It’s not in the scripture. The Jewish people do not seem to interpret it this way (do they?) and it was part of their holy scriptures at least a thousand years earlier, yes?

Where does it come from? And when? And by whom?

.

It is a commenly held doctrine that the supernatural endowment of the first men (iustitia originalis) included, in addition to the absolute supernatural gift of Sanctifying Grace, certain preternatural gifts, the so-called “dona integritatis” of which one is:

The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)

From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma of Ludwig Ott, p. 104-105:

d) supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
Since our first parents, according to Holy Writ, entered into existence in an adult state and were the first teachers and educators of humanity, it was appropriate that they should be equipped by God with a natural knowledge suitable to their age and their tasks, and with that measure of supernatural knowledge which was necessary to enable them to achieve their supernatural

In Holy Writ the deep knowledge of Adam is indicated in his naming of the animals (Gn. 2, 20) and in his immediate knowledge of the status and tasks of the woman (Gn. 2, 23 et seq.). Cf. Ecclus. 17, Set seq.

In Gn. 2, 20 (naming of the animals), St. Augustine sees" a proof of the transcendental wisdom" (indicium excellentissimae sapientiae: Ope ilnperf. contra luI. V I).

According to St. Cyril of Alexandria, “Adam, the head of the race, was perfect in knowledge immediately from the first Iuoment ofhis emergence” (In loan. I, 9). C£ S. tho I 94, 3.

 

[Richca]

That’s the point.
They did not know the consequences.

First of all, God only told them they would die…he did not tell them that the consequences would be the fall of all of humanity.
That little bit of information would have been helpful.

Second, as you say, the snake deceived them…and told them of *new *consequences–that they would be wise people who could tell the difference between good and evil if they ate the fruit. These are good consequences.

Third…they were trusting, so they believed the snake.

And they ate the fruit thinking they were doing a good thing.

If they can’t know the snake is evil…how are they to know not to trust him? Why didn’t God warn them that bad entities would try to fool them?

They were innocent.

.

Adam and Eve were innocent and God is unjust? Do you not think that this might be backwards? Daddygirl, your interpretation of the fall of Adam and Eve in the Genesis narrative is faulty in so many ways it’s hard to know where to begin. Your interpretation involves a faulty idea and understanding of God, a faulty idea of human nature, a faulty idea of our first parents in the garden of paradise, a faulty idea of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil, a faulty idea of sin, all of which results in a faulty interpretation of the fall of our first parents.

For a proper interpretation of the fall of our first parents, I suggest for starters to keep in mind the following few points and to banish from the mind any thoughts that contradict these few points. Firstly, God is perfectly just, there is no injustice in him whatsoever. So, their is no injustice whatsoever in the sentence and punishment from God that followed the disobedience of Adam and Eve. It would be better to say that he punished them with mercy. God understood the situation infinitely better than we think we can. For he created the world and Adam and Eve. To try and lay the blame on God in some way for Adam and Eve’s disobedience is going to result in a faulty idea of God. God created the world for Adam and Eve and established them in his friendship out of his goodness; he did not create them to kill them.

Secondly, the sin of Adam and Eve was a mortal sin as evidenced by their banishment from the garden of Eden which spiritually signifies the loss of sanctifying grace and of course death. Death of the body signifies death of the soul for the wages of sin is death. Now, three things are required together for their to be mortal sin, namely, grave matter, full knowledge of the sinful character of the act, and full consent of the will. In a word, Adam and Eve have no excuse for their disobedience to God’s command. It was a very grave sin which they freely committed. Eve succumbed to the temptation from the snake, that is, the devil and Adam succumbed to Eve’s suggestion. Eve could have resisted the temptation but she didn’t and sinned. God supplied Adam and Eve with whatever they needed to not sin. If we don’t admit this, then we fall into the trap of saying God is unjust which is against the first point I mentioned. In fact, any excuse that can be thought of to excuse Adam and Eve is going to make God unjust in the sentence he pronounced on them, and this is inadmissible. Human beings have free will. The devil is certainly a player here and in the world we are living in now but he cannot force a human to sin.

The Tree of the knowledge of good and evil does not mean that Adam and Eve did not possess moral discrimination. Again, do not fall into the trap that God is unjust or malevolent in any way, this is a faulty idea of God. God gave Adam and Eve the command not to eat of the forbidden tree and Adam and Eve knew it would be evil to disobey God. This needs no explaining, it’s a matter of common sense. Adam and Eve committed a mortal sin with full knowledge and full consent of the will. This sin was especially grievous because of the state in which God created Adam and Eve which was not of a fallen nature like the one we inherit from them. Much can be said concerning the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil but it wasn’t a tree that was a cause of knowledge or wisdom for the person eating it as can be seen from the sequel after Adam and Eve ate of it.; they lost innocence, grace, wisdom, banished from the garden and became subject to death. Sinning is not wisdom but its opposite. The devil lied to Eve and Eve wanted in a sense to make herself equal to God as the scripture says “you shall be like God.” That is, Adam and Eve wanted to determine for themselves what is good and evil, i.e., complete moral independence, not to be subject to God. Two, the forbidden tree is called the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil because of what followed by eating of it. Adam and Eve had experiential knowledge of the evil of sin and disobedience to God. This is not the kind of knowledge God wants us to have.

 

[NoelFitz]

Grannymh,
please continue here. I, and I presume others in CAF, like to delve into Scripture.

 

[grannymh]

Grannymh,
please continue here. I, and I presume others in CAF, like to delve into Scripture.

I have been thinking about the amazing author of the first three chapters of Genesis. I would love to walk a mile in his sandals. On the other hand, I am glad I am not in his sandals because my Hebrew nation would be surrounded by cultures with multiple gods who, at times, are responsible for this or that. This granny confuses easily.
From Genesis 1 usccb.org/bible/genesis/1

26
Then God said: Let us make human beings in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the tame animals, all the wild animals, and all the creatures that crawl on the earth.
27
God created mankind in his image;
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

While there can be various interpretations as to why “us” is used, “God said” is still a singular God.

Not only is this singular God all powerful creating the diverse fish, birds, tame and wild animals and even the creatures that crawl on the earth, this God can create a being who is more powerful than all of these material critters.

I do have to smile because the author is quick to clarify that this new powerful being is not like the bunch of gods in surrounding populations. This new powerful being is in God’s image, not the same as being a God. This author, with so much to relate to us, is so deeply in love with God, that he worked overtime to get the details right. There had to be lots of overtime because when one uses figurative language, there is a mountain of challenges.

Maybe this is a good time to delve into these two verses which serve as green lights to going deeper into the following sections. Is the apple an apple? Or is the apple a key to maintaining the original friendship relationship between Adam and his Creator?

 

[goout]

I have been thinking about the amazing author of the first three chapters of Genesis. I would love to walk a mile in his sandals. On the other hand, I am glad I am not in his sandals because my Hebrew nation would be surrounded by cultures with multiple gods who, at times, are responsible for this or that. This granny confuses easily.
From Genesis 1 usccb.org/bible/genesis/1

26
Then God said: Let us make human beings in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the tame animals, all the wild animals, and all the creatures that crawl on the earth.
27
God created mankind in his image;
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

While there can be various interpretations as to why “us” is used, “God said” is still a singular God.

Not only is this singular God all powerful creating the diverse fish, birds, tame and wild animals and even the creatures that crawl on the earth, this God can create a being who is more powerful than all of these material critters.

I do have to smile because the author is quick to clarify that this new powerful being is not like the bunch of gods in surrounding populations. This new powerful being is in God’s image, not the same as being a God. This author, with so much to relate to us, is so deeply in love with God, that he worked overtime to get the details right. There had to be lots of overtime because when one uses figurative language, there is a mountain of challenges.

Maybe this is a good time to delve into these two verses which serve as green lights to going deeper into the following sections. Is the apple an apple? Or is the apple a key to maintaining the original friendship relationship between Adam and his Creator?

By saying “us” I believe God is referring to himself as a community of persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
So from the very beginning human beings are made in a communal image. Our bodies reflect this communal image. Human beings are made to come together in unity, as God himself is a unity of persons.
The human body is not made for individualism.

 

[grannymh]

By saying “us” I believe God is referring to himself as a community of persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
So from the very beginning human beings are made in a communal image. Our bodies reflect this communal image. Human beings are made to come together in unity, as God himself is a unity of persons.
The human body is not made for individualism.