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Walking_Home
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Submission is not one sided – but mutual.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church
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Did "wives submit to your husbands in everything" deter you from marriage?
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agapewolf
Guest
The word submit is misunderstood…
sub=under
mission
I’m called to be under my husband’s mission,…which is to love me as Christ loved the church. Love is an act of the will for the other’s good-- which is heaven. Christ died for the church.
So his mission is to get me to heaven, even if it kills him, my mission is to allow him to do that.
So EPH 5 is the reading we used at our wedding and it made me want to marry.
sub=under
mission
I’m called to be under my husband’s mission,…which is to love me as Christ loved the church. Love is an act of the will for the other’s good-- which is heaven. Christ died for the church.
So his mission is to get me to heaven, even if it kills him, my mission is to allow him to do that.
So EPH 5 is the reading we used at our wedding and it made me want to marry.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
I wonder if people realise that submission is also the highest precept in Islam. You just made an excellent case for how Muslims see themselves in relation to God. Very good!The word submit is misunderstood…
sub=under
mission
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exnihilo
Guest
Submission is something Islam has right. Where they go wrong is in viewing God as being capable of arbitrariness and capriciousness. Calvinism can tend to view God like that. It is promoting power, in this case God’s omnipotence, over all else. A more accurate understanding of God and what we are called to be eliminates the problems that submission has to arbitrary and carpricious power.I wonder if people realise that submission is also the highest precept in Islam. You just made an excellent case for how Muslims see themselves in relation to God. Very good!
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steve93
Guest
Islam is a false religion, as is Calvinism. Both are openly misogynistic.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
Where did you learn that?Islam is a false religion, as is Calvinism. Both are openly misogynistic.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
Since God is God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike, we all know and understand the same God, albeit in different relationships. Thankfully, the attributes remain constant and unending. Our perception of them changes over time. I’m not so certain I agree with you over the attributes ‘arbitrary and capricious’ though. Do you see examples of that in Hebrew or Christian Scriptures as well as Muslim Scriptures?Submission is something Islam has right. Where they go wrong is in viewing God as being capable of arbitrariness and capriciousness. Calvinism can tend to view God like that. It is promoting power, in this case God’s omnipotence, over all else. A more accurate understanding of God and what we are called to be eliminates the problems that submission has to arbitrary and carpricious power.
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exnihilo
Guest
There is only one God. Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in only one God, so they do worship the same God. But their different understandings of God make a huge difference in the particulars of their faith. These differences in faith lead to very different ways of living.Since God is God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike, we all know and understand the same God, albeit in different relationships. Thankfully, the attributes remain constant and unending. Our perception of them changes over time. I’m not so certain I agree with you over the attributes ‘arbitrary and capricious’ though. Do you see examples of that in Hebrew or Christian Scriptures as well as Muslim Scriptures?
It is based on my understanding of how Islam and Calvinism view God that leads to my conclusion. It isn’t just particular quotes from holy books but how they view God. For instance with Islam as I understand you could live a holy life but not obtain Heaven because ultimately God can act as he wills. There is no sense of God acting just. I see the same kind of thinking in Calvinism. I said it was about how they view God’s power but really it is more about his sovereignty and justice.
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TechieGuy
Guest
Hahaha - oh my goodness, that’s funny - I take it that you’ve never met my wife!Gentleman, were you ever deterred from courtship or marriage by your unwillingness to take on a dominating role and assume the authority to command your wife?
Quite honestly, the idea of taking St. Paul’s writings as a blueprint for our marriage - now in our twentieth year - never once crossed our minds.I feel like I’m the only one, but I suspect I’m not actually alone in this. If this is your experience, I would love to hear your story–did you remain unmarried or did something allow you to make peace with St. Paul’s blueprint for marriage? Thanks!
I agree with this. My wife and I didn’t get too worried about this. We’re a team and the marriage is a partnership between us. We both have to lead each other to heaven and really in day to day married life who the heck cares about who is the “boss of the marriage”. It’s all about compromise.I’m not married and am occupied right now with quite a few other things, but I plan on getting married.
St Paul’s instructions to the Ephesians are disciplinary and not doctrinal, and neither is the linked encyclical by that very holy & hard-working Pope.
There is no doctrinal imperative for a woman to submit to her husband in all things, or for a man to take on a 100% dominating role. The only moral imperative about marriage is that a woman should care more about her husband and her children than herself and a man should care more about his wife and his children than himself, and they should love & sacrifice for each other and gradually fall deeper in love as they get older and help each other get to Heaven. A woman shouldn’t be disturbed or question that she is somehow less than her counterpart.
If I had met a woman who demanded that I follow some model of marriage that involved her obeying my every whim I’d be a little perturbed. That is certainly not a Catholic idea of marriage.
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Rau
Guest
TK421 later retracts her position.I agree with this. My wife and I didn’t get too worried about this. We’re a team and the marriage is a partnership between us. We both have to lead each other to heaven and really in day to day married life who the heck cares about who is the “boss of the marriage”. It’s all about compromise.
If I had met a woman who demanded that I follow some model of marriage that involved her obeying my every whim I’d be a little perturbed. That is certainly not a Catholic idea of marriage.
Grand. I don’t.TK421 later retracts her position.
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TK421
Guest
I’m a boy lol.TK421 later retracts her position.
I had a priest that - at least from my interpretation of his homily - took a complete equality in leadership position and that the passage wasn’t relevant. I wasn’t aware there was official teaching in the Catechism that was more nuanced than that.
The idea is somewhat uncomfortable for me, I think because of how many effective female bosses I’ve had in leadership positions, and male bosses who have been not so effective.
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TheAmazingGrace
Guest
How about both spouses demonstrate mutual respect and love for one another? You know, the whole “be subordinate to one another out of respect for Christ” thing?" St. Paul wrote that tidbit right before the “submission” passage, but no one who supports the latter ever seems to acknowledge the former.It isn’t meant to be at all misogynistic. Perhaps respect would be a better word to use, since submit has gained a connotation of cowering or acquiescence.
I fail to see how calling men to love their wives to the point of imitating Christ’s sacrifice of His own life can be misogynistic.
And the mention of that sick reality tv “family” makes my blood boil. He needs a little “mild, inappropriate touching” upside the head with a 2X4.
Molest your own sister then cheat on your wife with a hooker. Then blame her.
What have we come to.
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TheAmazingGrace
Guest
Misogynists and equal-minded people are present in all religions, Catholicism included.Islam is a false religion, as is Calvinism. Both are openly misogynistic.
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Elena321
Guest
I’m not married but would perhaps like to be one day.
I live in Australia which is quite liberal and the idea of a woman submitting to her husband is not very popular here.
Not many guys here want such a thing (except joking around about it).
I live in Australia which is quite liberal and the idea of a woman submitting to her husband is not very popular here.
Not many guys here want such a thing (except joking around about it).
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ShrodingersCat
Guest
In addition, I’ve admittedly not been married long, but we have yet to encounter a situation that we can’t resolve by discussion. One person puts a better case forward and the other goes along with it because it’s the best solution. So I don’t see how the ‘submit to your husband’ would ever have altered anything in my marriage to date even if it was my blueprint.
ThisIn addition, I’ve admittedly not been married long, but we have yet to encounter a situation that we can’t resolve by discussion. One person puts a better case forward and the other goes along with it because it’s the best solution. So I don’t see how the ‘submit to your husband’ would ever have altered anything in my marriage to date even if it was my blueprint.
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exnihilo
Guest
In a very good marriage this may well be your experience. I think I have a pretty good marriage, yet we’ve run into issue where just discussing doesn’t bring us to consensus. But what about all the marriages that aren’t so good? If we look at the divorce rate there are plenty of troubled marriage. Maybe they are troubled because they can’t reach consensus and yet have to work together as one? If they don’t have a method for carrying on when they can’t agree then what can we expect but a fractured marriage?In addition, I’ve admittedly not been married long, but we have yet to encounter a situation that we can’t resolve by discussion. One person puts a better case forward and the other goes along with it because it’s the best solution. So I don’t see how the ‘submit to your husband’ would ever have altered anything in my marriage to date even if it was my blueprint.
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cthulhubryan
Guest
22 years and counting. We view this slightly differently. My wife feels it means that I am the leader of the family make the spiritual decisions, subject to her veto/appeal. I view it as an order from on high that I had better dang well respect my wife and that I will one day have to answer for how I did in leading her in faith as well as respecting her as a child of God and a person on her own.
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