Did You Ever Wonder Why?

[mercytruth]

Did you ever wonder why the Apostle Paul wrote so much about the relationship between faith and righteousness. Did you ever wonder why he referred to Habakkuk 2:4 on so many occasions? The just shall live by faith

This portion of the Talmud was cited by a Jewish person on another thread in our discussion about faith.

This conception of the relationship between belief in God and the moral life is conveyed in a number of Talmudic discussions. There is the well-known homily by Rabbi Simlai: “Six hundred and thirteen commandments were addressed to Moses—three hundred and sixty-five prohibitions corresponding to the days of the solar year, and two hundred and forty-eight positive commandments corresponding to the number of limbs in the human body. David came and reduced them to eleven principles, which are listed in Psalm 15. Isaiah came and reduced them to six as is said, ‘He that walketh righteously and speaketh uprightly, he that despiseth the gain of oppression, that shaketh his hands from holding bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from looking upon evil’ (Is. 33:15). Micah came and reduced them to three, as it is written, ‘What does the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God’ (Micah 6:8). Isaiah subsequently reduced them to two, as it is said, ‘Thus saith the Lord, keep ye justice and do righteousness’ (Is. 56:1). Lastly came Habakkuk and reduced them to one, as it is said, ‘The righteous shall live by his faith’” (Hab. 2:4).

(The Purpose of Human Existence).
sacred-texts.com/jud/wott/wott06.htm#an_r_04_11

God’s peace

Micah

 

[mercytruth]

So it would seem that the Jewish apostle Paul was aware of this teaching of the Talmud, and incorporated it into his preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Is it possible that the apostle Paul was also aware of the commentary of Habakkuk that was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls? In this commentary, the ‘Teacher of Righteousness’ is identified with Hab.2:4: "the righteous shall live by his faith"

Of them the words of Habakkuk 2:4 (“the righteous shall live by his faith”) were spoken: “Their interpretation concerns all the doers of the law in the house of Judah, whom God will save from the house of judgment because of their toil and their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness” (1Qp Hab. 8:1–3).

My many thanks to the Jewish resources of these two quotes, may G-d bless the Jewish people.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/…9_0_19666.html

God’s peace

Micah

 

[meltzerboy]

Did you ever wonder why the Apostle Paul wrote so much about the relationship between faith and righteousness. Did you ever wonder why he referred to Habakkuk 2:4 on so many occasions? The just shall live by faith

This portion of the Talmud was cited by a Jewish person on another thread in our discussion about faith.

This conception of the relationship between belief in God and the moral life is conveyed in a number of Talmudic discussions. There is the well-known homily by Rabbi Simlai: “Six hundred and thirteen commandments were addressed to Moses—three hundred and sixty-five prohibitions corresponding to the days of the solar year, and two hundred and forty-eight positive commandments corresponding to the number of limbs in the human body. David came and reduced them to eleven principles, which are listed in Psalm 15. Isaiah came and reduced them to six as is said, ‘He that walketh righteously and speaketh uprightly, he that despiseth the gain of oppression, that shaketh his hands from holding bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from looking upon evil’ (Is. 33:15). Micah came and reduced them to three, as it is written, ‘What does the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God’ (Micah 6:8). Isaiah subsequently reduced them to two, as it is said, ‘Thus saith the Lord, keep ye justice and do righteousness’ (Is. 56:1). Lastly came Habakkuk and reduced them to one, as it is said, ‘The righteous shall live by his faith’” (Hab. 2:4).

(The Purpose of Human Existence).
sacred-texts.com/jud/wott/wott06.htm#an_r_04_11

God’s peace

Micah

As simple and eloquent as that statement is: “The righteous shall live by his faith,” it is most challenging for people to practice on a daily basis. Then again, any goal of significant value and fulfillment must present challenges.

 

[mercytruth]

As simple and eloquent as that statement is: “The righteous shall live by his faith,” it is most challenging for people to practice on a daily basis. Then again, any goal of significant value and fulfillment must present challenges.

It is indeed difficult. This is why for some of the Christian faith, they live out the faith in the spirit of the faith of Jesus Christ, himself.

For those of the Orthodox Christian faith, you might be interested in Father Ted’s blog on the faith of Jesus Christ:

frted.wordpress.com/2012/07/03/the-faith-of-jesus-christ/

God’s peace

Micah

 

[dsully]

That is really interesting, and it kind of gets at an issue I have wondered about. For faith to be saving, does it have to be only in the person and work of Christ? Or can it be a more general faith that does not make reference to Jesus? I would guess that most conservative evangelicals would say that the faith has to be in the gospel message of Christ crucified and raised? What do Catholics think?

Dan

 

[mercytruth]

That is really interesting, and it kind of gets at an issue I have wondered about. For faith to be saving, does it have to be only in the person and work of Christ? Or can it be a more general faith that does not make reference to Jesus? I would guess that most conservative evangelicals would say that the faith has to be in the gospel message of Christ crucified and raised? What do Catholics think?

Dan

Dan,

If Father Ted is correct about assuming that it is through the faith, trust, or faithfulness of Jesus Christ, himself that we are justified, then it changes our definition and perspective of faith itself.

Then we have this powerful scripture of the apostle Paul to consider:

“I am crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me, and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

God’s peace

Micah

 

[fhansen]

That is really interesting, and it kind of gets at an issue I have wondered about. For faith to be saving, does it have to be only in the person and work of Christ? Or can it be a more general faith that does not make reference to Jesus? I would guess that most conservative evangelicals would say that the faith has to be in the gospel message of Christ crucified and raised? What do Catholics think?

Dan

Jesus’ whole purpose is to restore in man faith in God, to lead him back to the Father from whom he was lost. It just so happens that this endeavor had to be undertaken by God, Himself- God the Son as it turns out. God alone saves. So as Catholics we don’t need to emphasize the importance of Jesus as opposed to the Father. They’re the same, after all, in their deity, and the goal of the New Covenant is simply full reconciliation of man with God. And this can only begin, for our part, with faith in God and the things He’s said and the things He’s done and the promises He’s made, a faith that was effectively lost or destroyed or seriously compromised at the Fall.

 

[dsully]

Dan,

If Father Ted is correct about assuming that it is through the faith, trust, or faithfulness of Jesus Christ, himself that we are justified, then it changes our definition and perspective of faith itself.

Then we have this powerful scripture of the apostle Paul to consider:

"I am crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me, and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

God’s peace

Micah

Yes, it does. I looked at a number of translations of Gal. 2:20. Some suggest that we live by faith in the Son of God; others suggest that we by the faith of the Son of God. Still others seem to suggest a combination of both. How are we supposed to know what is the right translation?

 

[fhansen]

Yes, it does. I looked at a number of translations of Gal. 2:20. Some suggest that we live by faith in the Son of God; others suggest that we by the faith of the Son of God. Still others seem to suggest a combination of both. How are we supposed to know what is the right translation?

I’m not sure if it makes a difference. Jesus lived by faith in the Father; we must also live by faith in the Father-justice demands this because man can’t even begin to have the relationship with God that he was created to have in order to possess his true integrity, unless he first of all believes in God-and man is born without that faith-without knowledge of God.

We believe in Jesus because He shows us the “face” of the Father; to believe in Him is to beleive in God, and at the same time He shows us the way to God, so we emulate Him in our belief.

 

[mercytruth]

Yes, it does. I looked at a number of translations of Gal. 2:20. Some suggest that we live by faith in the Son of God; others suggest that we by the faith of the Son of God. Still others seem to suggest a combination of both. How are we supposed to know what is the right translation?

For myself, I look at several other indicators. The Septuagint version of the OT translates Habakkuk 2:4 as 'the just shall live by my faith’

In the epistle to the Hebrews it says that Jesus Christ is 'the author and finisher of faith"

There are several early church fathers who speak of the faith of Jesus Christ.

So, it is important for myself to know that my belief in Jesus Christ enables me to be one with the Spirit of his faith. The faith, or faithfulness of Jesus Christ who was obedient to his Father perfectly. I do not think I will ever be able to be perfect in obedience to our heavenly Father without the Spirit of faith of Jesus Christ abiding in me, and even then, God knows I am a sinner with a selfish will.

God’s peace

Micah

 

[Crumpy]

To answer the title question, yes, I have wondered.

I can only answer this in a person way, that faith is what changes everything in my life. If I believe in Jesus Christ, then everything else in my life is different and hangs on that faith.

If I didn’t believe in Christ, I don’t know what would happen to me, because I’ve grown up believing in Christ all my life. Everything I’ve done, has been in reference to Christ.

If I didn’t believe in Christ, I might start indulging in every sin in the book, because I would have no bounds. I don’t know if I’d live very long like that. I would be in some kind of post-traumatic stress syndrome, and I don’t think I’d recover.

But, faith is only the beginning. From faith , we develop hope. And, then, we must act in charity in every way that Jesus commanded us to live.

These are very interconnected, but logically so.

 

[mercytruth]

To answer the title question, yes, I have wondered.

I can only answer this in a person way, that faith is what changes everything in my life. If I believe in Jesus Christ, then everything else in my life is different and hangs on that faith.

If I didn’t believe in Christ, I don’t know what would happen to me, because I’ve grown up believing in Christ all my life. Everything I’ve done, has been in reference to Christ.

If I didn’t believe in Christ, I might start indulging in every sin in the book, because I would have no bounds. I don’t know if I’d live very long like that. I would be in some kind of post-traumatic stress syndrome, and I don’t think I’d recover.

But, faith is only the beginning. From faith , we develop hope. And, then, we must act in charity in every way that Jesus commanded us to live.

These are very interconnected, but logically so.

Crumpy,

As someone who has taken the interest and effort in learning of the Jewish roots of our Christian faith, I would hope that you would understand my interest in this subject.

In my eagerness to connect the apostle Paul with the teachings of the Talmud, I was assuming that Rabbi Simlai lived before the Apostle Paul. Not until today did I find out that he did not. Rabbi Simlai lived in the same generation as Origen. In fact, he debated against the Trinity with Origen. So I was **very wrong **in assuming such a thing.

So, why would Rabbi Simlai reduce righteousness to the one simple principle that is found in Habakkuk 2:4 “the just shall live by his faith” ? Especially, since this is what St. Paul proclaimed throughout the Jewish and Gentile world in his own day, and provoked the ire of his Jewish brethren for doing so. This remains a mystery to me.

The remaining mystery is whether or not the apostle Paul was aware of the commentary on the book of Habbakuk that was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls? A commentary which is presumed to have been written before Jesus Christ. A commentary which equates the ‘Teacher of Righteousness’ with the individual of Habakkuk 2:4: "the just shall live by his faith"

Please excuse me for sidetracking your comments. I now think faith is more than a mental assent to certain doctrinal truths. Faith as I understand it, is the trusting obedience of the heart and soul to the revealed will of God our Father that has been given to us through His written and incarnate Word. “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God”

Jesus Christ represents the perfect, faithful, and trusting obedience to the revealed will of his Father.

Finally, faith, hope and charity as you have stated are very much interconnected.

God’s peace

Micah

 

[meltzerboy]

Crumpy,

As someone who has taken the interest and effort in learning of the Jewish roots of our Christian faith, I would hope that you would understand my interest in this subject.

In my eagerness to connect the apostle Paul with the teachings of the Talmud, I was assuming that Rabbi Simlai lived before the Apostle Paul. Not until today did I find out that he did not. Rabbi Simlai lived in the same generation as Origen. In fact, he debated against the Trinity with Origen. So I was **very wrong **in assuming such a thing.

So, why would Rabbi Simlai reduce righteousness to the one simple principle that is found in Habakkuk 2:4 “the just shall live by his faith” ? Especially, since this is what St. Paul proclaimed throughout the Jewish and Gentile world in his own day, and provoked the ire of his Jewish brethren for doing so. This remains a mystery to me.

The remaining mystery is whether or not the apostle Paul was aware of the commentary on the book of Habbakuk that was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls? A commentary which is presumed to have been written before Jesus Christ. A commentary which equates the ‘Teacher of Righteousness’ with the individual of Habakkuk 2:4: "the just shall live by his faith"

Please excuse me for sidetracking your comments. I now think faith is more than a mental assent to certain doctrinal truths. Faith as I understand it, is the trusting obedience of the heart and soul to the revealed will of God our Father that has been given to us through His written and incarnate Word. “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God”

Jesus Christ represents the perfect, faithful, and trusting obedience to the revealed will of his Father.

Finally, faith, hope and charity as you have stated are very much interconnected.

God’s peace

Micah

I thought “the just (righteous) shall live by his faith” means that the righteous person should live by his own faith; in other words, he must practice his faith. I didn’t realize it was intended to mean by or in the faith of Jesus Christ. Rabbi Simlai may have meant this (as well as Paul?) since Judaism puts more stock into moral behavior and good deeds than faith per se. And doesn’t Catholicism also believe that faith without deeds is sterile?

 

[mercytruth]

I thought "

the just (righteous) shall live by his faith" means that the righteous person should live by his own faith; in other words, he must practice his faith.