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[michael_quinlan]

Dear Vppoole,

                     It was meant to catch your attention, but also to raise a dialogue.  Are our actions and its products actually of our own design or are we actually fulfilling God's Will?  The question arises as to where does Good come from, and man's powerful draw to believe he is the creator and the one in control.

                      When I first encountered this theological principle years ago, I was taken back.  What do you mean that what I do does not constitute creating good?  But in actuality it is only a cooperative role with the true creator of Good, God.

       (PS)-  The following Bible passage refers to us being transformed by Christ.  Absolutely.  So we come to the great understanding of the humble role we play in the Great Design of God.  St. Paul also reminds us all that we are to strive to be perfect as Our Father in Heaven is.  Even though, we never can be.

 

[michael_quinlan]

Well, you can play good music without supernatural grace. So, you can do good without grace, right?

VC

Can you? Or has your prayers before God resulted in dedication to practice resulting in what He had intended all along, good music.

 

[jmcrae]

Can you? Or has your prayers before God resulted in dedication to practice resulting in what He had intended all along, good music.

What about atheist musicians?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Michael, you puzzle me. Along with your posts on this thread, I cannot reconcile them with your recent post on another thread where, on responding to a poster who (correctly) informed that the Inquisition was the predecessor of the current Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith you responded,

Do they take appointments for the rack or are walk ins allowed?

(slight paraphrase but that was the gist). No ‘emoticon’ at the time I viewed it so there is no way of knowing if you meant that as a ‘straight’ remark or a joke (which it certainly could be).

But it is puzzling, as your theology is either a very Jansenist or narrow view if you are Roman/Eastern/Latin Catholic, or a very Lutheran type view if you are the “Catholic” who actually is not in union with the Pope but insists on being called “Catholic” through “being a member of the universal Catholic Church as a Christian”.

I’m not making a judgment either way as I don’t know. But. . .you do puzzle me.

 

[michael_quinlan]

Atheists don’t realize they are praying, but wishing, desiring thinking are all processes heard by the Holy Spirit. For an atheist to be a good musician, though he doesn’t know it, he wished for the “ability”(grace) to cooperate with God’s Will in allowing good music to enter the world.

 

[michael_quinlan]

Dear Tantum Ergo,
As a prayer warrior especially, you must in all honesty admit that the Office of Inquisition calls up horrific views of human torture, degradation, and death. As a prayer warrior we should be praying for the souls of the creator of such a vile office as well as the acts of evil it carried out. When one individual stated that the Office is still in use but with a name change, I couldn't resist a little levity. Are Roman Catholics allowed to have a sense of humor, or should I drag out my sackcloth and ashes outfit(I just had it dry-cleaned)?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Atheists don’t realize they are praying, but wishing, desiring thinking are all processes heard by the Holy Spirit. For an atheist to be a good musician, though he doesn’t know it, he wished for the “ability”(grace) to cooperate with God’s Will in allowing good music to enter the world.

Michael,

But when I asked you what you meant by “grace” you said a supernatural gift from God.

“Ability” isn’t a supernatural gift. It is natural.

VC

 

[michael_quinlan]

Is it? Or do we assume its natural. Why are some people excellent musicians while others can’t even do scales.

 

[jmcrae]

Dear Tantum Ergo,

                           As a prayer warrior especially, you must in all honesty admit that the Office of Inquisition calls up horrific views of human torture, degradation, and death.

Do not mistake the mythology of the Inquisition with the Roman Inquisition itself. Also, don’t mistake the Spanish Inquisition (Torquemada, etc.) with the Roman Inquisition - but even the Spanish Inquisition was not as bad as the mythology makes it out to be - it was simply the asking of questions, in order to determine whether the suspect was guilty, or not. If found guilty, yes, there were harsh punishments - but this was actually progress for the time, since without the Inquisition, the suspects were simply assumed to be guilty, and punished as if they were guilty, with no questions being asked at all.

As a prayer warrior we should be praying for the souls of the creator of such a vile office as well as the acts of evil it carried out. When one individual stated that the Office is still in use but with a name change, I couldn’t resist a little levity.

It still does the same thing it always did - asks questions.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Is it? Or do we assume its natural. Why are some people excellent musicians while others can’t even do scales.

No. It is. There is distinction between nature and supernature.

Men have the natural ability to throw a rock. There is no need for supernatural grace to enable them to do so.

VC

 

[fhansen]

Dear Vppoole,

                    St. Paul also reminds us all that we are to strive to be perfect as Our Father in Heaven is.  Even though, we never can be.

This is Protestant thought-not Catholic. In fact, Catholic doctrine teaches that we must be perfect for entrance into heaven-accomplished by Gods’ graced and our cooperation with it. And purgatory would be a pretty worthless enterprise if not for this fact.

 

[michael_quinlan]

You’re scary. What could they be so guilty of that would result in burning at the stake?

Progress for their time. Wow. I wonder what the Holy Spirit would think of that one and how it was an outward sign of the Great Commandment.

Finally, maybe my original joke wasn’t too far from seriousness. If there aren’t any openings for the rack, can I choose between the iron maiden or thumbscrews.

Don’t worry. Help is on the way. I intend to pray for you and former employees of the Office of Inquisition.

 

[michael_quinlan]

No. It is. There is distinction between nature and supernature.

Men have the natural ability to throw a rock. There is no need for supernatural grace to enable them to do so.

VC

Yes, but can he hit anything with the rock?

 

[michael_quinlan]

This is Protestant thought-not Catholic. In fact, Catholic doctrine teaches that we must be perfect for entrance into heaven-accomplished by Gods’ graced and our cooperation with it. And purgatory would be a pretty worthless enterprise if not for this fact.

Who said we aren’t striving by grace?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Yes, but can he hit anything with the rock?

Sure.

Are you saying that a man needs supernatural grace to hit something with a rock?

VC

 

[jmcrae]

You’re scary. What could they be so guilty of that would result in burning at the stake?

Anything that merits the death penalty. Or do you also condemn your own court system for having a death penalty, and meting it out as it seems deserved?

Progress for their time. Wow. I wonder what the Holy Spirit would think of that one and how it was an outward sign of the Great Commandment.

It was love for the innocent victims that led the authorities to remove the threat of those who would deliberately harm society, in the best way that they could, at the time. They also used bottle cells and other means of incarceration, when it was thought that a period of isolation might cure the man of his criminal tendencies. Bu they didn’t have jails as we understand them today, so there wasn’t really any place to keep large numbers of criminals - and with bands of brigands (who were calling themselves Lutherans) burning down churches, synagogues, convents, monasteries, etc., with the people still inside them, something had to be done, don’t you agree?

Finally, maybe my original joke wasn’t too far from seriousness. If there aren’t any openings for the rack, can I choose between the iron maiden or thumbscrews.

You are thinking of the Tower of London (which was a Protestant institution). The Inquisition didn’t have any iron maidens, or thumbscrews.

 

[fhansen]

Who said we aren’t striving by grace?

It’s not just the striving for perfection-it’s the achieving of it which has been Gods’ purpose for us and His creation from the beginning. That’s the reason for the entire drama including the fall, the world we’ve been cast into, and the plan of salvation-for Gods’ will to ultimately be mans’ will.

 

[michael_quinlan]

I don’t think Catholics believe in the death penalty. Torture during any century is an evil. The Church was meant to be in the world not of it.

And, with what we know now, it can’t hurt to reach back in hope that those misguided souls are in Purgatory. Prayer can work miracles.

 

[michael_quinlan]

It’s not just the striving for perfection-it’s the achieving of it which has been Gods’ purpose for us and His creation from the beginning. That’s the reason for the entire drama including the fall, the world we’ve been cast into, and the plan of salvation-for Gods’ will to ultimately be mans’ will.

Careful. Only God is perfect. According to St. Paul there is a residue of sin not vanquished by the cross that is left to man to rectify. We do a poor job of it by our imperfection. Therefore we constantly grovel before the Throne of God in humility for forgiveness of our broken-ness that through His Mercy we may be forgiven and allowed to live with Him forever(though in no way do we deserve it).

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t think Catholics believe in the death penalty.

It is permitted when the defense of society requires it, and there are no viable alternatives.

Torture during any century is an evil.

Yes, it is.

Do you accuse the Church of torturing people?

Are you believing the lies and mythologies about the Inquisition, instead of looking at the reality - simply, the asking of questions (hence the name “Inquisition”) to determine guilt or innocence, with the appropriate punishments (which, yes, were harsh - but hey, there was very little recidivism) for the guilty afterwards?