Did you know.........

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michael_quinlan said:
that we cannot do any good in this world?
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Yep! Only God is good. He dose the good through us, with us, and in us; therefore, we must live through Him, with Him, and in Him, for without Him we can do nothing, but with Him we can do all things. 🙂
 
jmcrae said:
It is permitted when the defense of society requires it, and there are no viable alternatives.

Yes, it is.

Do you accuse the Church of torturing people?

Are you believing the lies and mythologies about the Inquisition, instead of looking at the reality - simply, the asking of questions (hence the name “Inquisition”) to determine guilt or innocence, with the appropriate punishments (which, yes, were harsh - but hey, there was very little recidivism) for the guilty afterwards?
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You take the fact that they issued punishment resulting in death, rather lightly. I am far more concerned for the state of their souls than the public image that the Church could have ever been accused of torture. Are you saying that confessions were not extracted in inappropriate means?
 
michael_quinlan said:
Careful. Only God is perfect. According to St. Paul there is a residue of sin not vanquished by the cross that is left to man to rectify. We do a poor job of it by our imperfection. Therefore we constantly grovel before the Throne of God in humility for forgiveness of our broken-ness that through His Mercy we may be forgiven and allowed to live with Him forever(though in no way do we deserve it).
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Yes, until God finally has His way with us-is done molding us. This is why Jesus tells us to be holy as He is holy(Peter 1:15-16), perfect as He is perfect(Matt 5:48), sinless(1 Cor 6:9-10). At this point we will no longer be attached to ungodly things -worshiping Him in Spirit and truth, loving Him with our whole hearts, souls, minds and strength and everyone else as ourselves. When our wills are perfectly united with and obedient to His will, the kingdom of God reigns supreme.
 
michael_quinlan said:
You take the fact that they issued punishment resulting in death, rather lightly.
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Considering the sorts of things they did and were accused of doing, it seems like a light punishment indeed.
I am far more concerned for the state of their souls than the public image that the Church could have ever been accused of torture. Are you saying that confessions were not extracted in inappropriate means?
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In some very few cases, they were (and those people who did that were also punished quite severely when they were caught, and their victims were set free to go about their business), but for the most part, no - it was a fair trial.
 
I’m glad the worst the Propagation of the Faith can hoist on the faithful are papercuts.
 
Michael,

Back to the topic of supernatural grace and doing good.

You seemed to indicate that one needs supernatural grace to do anything good. Have you changed your opinion on this?

VC
 
In actuality, I believe it is in asking for the grace that allows the pipe to be open so that I can cooperate with God’s Will to bring good into the world.
 
So can a man in mortal sin, who doesn’t ask for God’s grace, do anything good?

VC
 
Doesn’t that go counter to experience?

It seems there are those in mortal sin, who neither ask for, nor receive supernatural grace, who nevertheless perform good acts.

Or would you say that those who are not in the state of grace cannot do any good, and their good acts are actually evil ones?

VC
 
Verbum_Caro said:
Doesn’t that go counter to experience?

It seems there are those in mortal sin, who neither ask for, nor receive supernatural grace, who nevertheless perform good acts.

Or would you say that those who are not in the state of grace cannot do any good, and their good acts are actually evil ones?

VC
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The main issue is asking for grace. Asking comes in many forms: wishful thinking, wanting, desiring, etc. Then good can flow through the pipe.
 
So would you say that someone who is not in the state of grace, who desires to do good (such as give his sandwich to his neighbor) somehow, by his desire to do good, receive grace to do so even though he is not in the state of grace?

VC
 
michael_quinlan said:
The main issue is asking for grace. Asking comes in many forms: wishful thinking, wanting, desiring, etc. Then good can flow through the pipe.
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So, someone can enter into the State of Grace without making any use of the Sacraments at all, or even without loving God at all?
 
We can cooperate with it entering the world, but not actually do it.
 
vppoole said:
Your initial statement misled me a little. Honestly, at first reading I thought that you were making a very hopeless statement. I thought that you were saying that we cannot do anything in cooperation with God because we are imperfect beings. Please correct me if I am wrong, but after reading further posts I think you were saying something different.

I think I slightly disagree with you, because while I do think that we should give all of the glory and credit to God (because after all He is Goodness Himself and created everything capable of doing good (and evil)), somewhere along the line we do actually make a choice to let God work in our lives, and that choice is actually doing good.
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Yes, we do choose. But God works in us both to will and to work for Him (cf. Phil 2:13). I believe God brings about our cooperation. For instance, the Lord disciplines us so that we won’t be condemned along with the world (1 Cor 11:32). So if we stand well on judgment day, it’s because of Him, right?
Otherwise if we could do no good, couldn’t one also say that we could do no evil? (Playing the Devil’s Advocate here) couldn’t one turn that into saying that it is God’s fault and not our own for every sin we commit in the world? If doing good is all God’s business, then why should we care about it? I think we do have some responsibility in there somewhere, and that that responsibility comes from the only thing we are capable of gaining some sort of control over: our own will. Though doing good is impossible without God, the choice on our behalf to offer ourselves to Him is small and often times wimpy, but still very important.
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I think our fallen nature allows us to do evil already. But God can give enough grace to turn us around and naturally follow Him. I do think we should care about doing good…I wasn’t suggesting that we don’t. It’s just that we need to rely on Him. If we sow to the Spirit we’ll reap eternal life (Gal 6:7-9). Choosing to do this, in my opinion, is brought about by God also.
So IMO, the only good that we can receive any credit for is in our choices to obey God: to follow Christ. Yes, He makes all of it possible through and through, but it is our small-yet significant decision to give it all back up to Him. Without our choice somewhere in there, wouldn’t it all be just a game?
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I go with the catechism…our merits are by being associated with what God does in us…and that the works we do are all gifts (CCC 2007-2011). Yes, I guess we can be credited with choosing to obey God…and there I can agree. I do think He brings it about…but Jesus does say “well done my faithful servant”.

God bless you,
 
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