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distracted
Guest
I would like to hear about how OSAS affected your life and how you broke away from it. Thanks.
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SwizzleStick
Guest
Pardon my ignorance, but what is OSAS?
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SwizzleStick
Guest
Never mind, I just saw Once Saved Always Saved.
No, I do not believe in that, as it is not a Catholic belief.
No, I do not believe in that, as it is not a Catholic belief.
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distracted
Guest
Once Saved, Always Saved… Sorry, i should have written it out… :hypno: :doh2:
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distracted
Guest
I know that, but the question was Did you ONCE believe in it??
I am Catholic also and have been all my life, but for a short time (no, a long time, actually
) I believed the osas thing… and there were some weird and scary consequneces… which is why i ask…You are fortunate if you never believed it…
J
jmcrae
Guest
At one point in my life I had a superstitious belief that if I could just recite the Sinner’s Prayer the “right” way then I’d be “saved”, but fortunately I realized at the time that I was being superstitious, and I didn’t hold to that belief for very long.I know that, but the question was Did you ONCE believe in it??
I am Catholic also and have been all my life, but for a short time (no, a long time, actually
You are fortunate if you never believed that…
There was also a short period in my life when I used to argue from the Once Saved Always Saved viewpoint, but I don’t think I ever actually believed in it - I was actually just looking for solid arguments against it, so that I could clarify my own thinking.
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distracted
Guest
so you never actually committed a particular sin because you felt you were 'saved" anyway and could get away with it??
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Cat
Guest
Yes, as an evangelical Protestant, I believed in it.
Back in the 1980s (I was in my 30s, with small children), I started realizing that many people “fell away” from the Lord and never came back.
Some actually fell into sinful lifestyles, e.g., started living with a member of the opposite (or same) sex. Others just stopped going to church totally, but didn’t seem to be indulging in any blatant (public) sin.
I started wondering why this happened and what it meant.
The answer that my church gave me from the Bible is that these people were never really Christians or they wouldn’t have fallen away. Once a person is saved, they are always saved.
But this explanation didn’t satisfy me because it seemed like “falling away” happened a lot to people in my church, including to people who were extremely “good” evangelical Christians. These people were pastors, missionaries, involved lay people, youth workers, Sunday school teachers–yet they fell away, and according to what I understood, they were never really Christians.
That REALLY REALLY bothered me, because it seemed that I really couldn’t trust that ANYONE was really a Christian. That’s scary! I was trusting my little children to teachers who might not even be real Christians!
I tried to put all of this out of my mind as much as possible, telling myself that Satan was trying to get my eyes off Jesus and onto other people and myself.
But it still bothered me everytime someone “fell away.”
Some people say that this doctrine gives Christians the freedom to sin with impunity, since they are always saved. I disagree with this. It seems to me that what this doctrine does is NOT allow Christians to become involved with any kind of habitual sin.
The question is, what constitutes a “habitual sin?” As an evangelical Christian, I never drank alcohol or smoked cigarettes. But I struggled (and still do) with overeating and drinking way too many Cokes. So did that mean that I really wasn’t a Christian?
Anyway, the whole thing just didn’t seem to hold water, especially when I really paid attention to the Bible verses that talk about “being careful not to fall away.” Of course Christians can and DO sin. But that didn’t mean that they ceased to be a Christian–did it?!!
Well, then I started learning about Catholicism in 2001, and it all made so much sense!
Today I utterly reject the doctrine of OSAS.
Back in the 1980s (I was in my 30s, with small children), I started realizing that many people “fell away” from the Lord and never came back.
Some actually fell into sinful lifestyles, e.g., started living with a member of the opposite (or same) sex. Others just stopped going to church totally, but didn’t seem to be indulging in any blatant (public) sin.
I started wondering why this happened and what it meant.
The answer that my church gave me from the Bible is that these people were never really Christians or they wouldn’t have fallen away. Once a person is saved, they are always saved.
But this explanation didn’t satisfy me because it seemed like “falling away” happened a lot to people in my church, including to people who were extremely “good” evangelical Christians. These people were pastors, missionaries, involved lay people, youth workers, Sunday school teachers–yet they fell away, and according to what I understood, they were never really Christians.
That REALLY REALLY bothered me, because it seemed that I really couldn’t trust that ANYONE was really a Christian. That’s scary! I was trusting my little children to teachers who might not even be real Christians!
I tried to put all of this out of my mind as much as possible, telling myself that Satan was trying to get my eyes off Jesus and onto other people and myself.
But it still bothered me everytime someone “fell away.”
Some people say that this doctrine gives Christians the freedom to sin with impunity, since they are always saved. I disagree with this. It seems to me that what this doctrine does is NOT allow Christians to become involved with any kind of habitual sin.
The question is, what constitutes a “habitual sin?” As an evangelical Christian, I never drank alcohol or smoked cigarettes. But I struggled (and still do) with overeating and drinking way too many Cokes. So did that mean that I really wasn’t a Christian?
Anyway, the whole thing just didn’t seem to hold water, especially when I really paid attention to the Bible verses that talk about “being careful not to fall away.” Of course Christians can and DO sin. But that didn’t mean that they ceased to be a Christian–did it?!!
Well, then I started learning about Catholicism in 2001, and it all made so much sense!
Today I utterly reject the doctrine of OSAS.
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Adam14
Guest
I also use to believe OSAS…
I can still sort of see both sides of the agrument, but like I said, I no longer believe OSAS.
When I DID believe it, my argument was that if somebody was to ever “fall away”, then they were obviously never saved to begin with.
But now I believe that since God gives us free will, we can certainly go in a different direction at any time and He doesn’t have to intervene.
And on top of that…I want to believe I will go to Heaven, and of course I HOPE I do, but ultimately it’s not my call, so I guess we never know until it’s actually time to go…and that takes the “Once saved” part of OSAS out anyway.
**One more thing…I’m not exactly sure when my beliefs on this changed, but I can certainly give Catholicism some credit, not for changing my belief in this, but re-enforcing it. I don’t agree with everything Catholic, but this was something that it really helped me with.
I can still sort of see both sides of the agrument, but like I said, I no longer believe OSAS.
When I DID believe it, my argument was that if somebody was to ever “fall away”, then they were obviously never saved to begin with.
But now I believe that since God gives us free will, we can certainly go in a different direction at any time and He doesn’t have to intervene.
And on top of that…I want to believe I will go to Heaven, and of course I HOPE I do, but ultimately it’s not my call, so I guess we never know until it’s actually time to go…and that takes the “Once saved” part of OSAS out anyway.
**One more thing…I’m not exactly sure when my beliefs on this changed, but I can certainly give Catholicism some credit, not for changing my belief in this, but re-enforcing it. I don’t agree with everything Catholic, but this was something that it really helped me with.
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SwizzleStick
Guest
Oops, sorry, I guess I was out in the sun too long today (my pre-schoolers last day of school picnic). Then I was bored and sleepy in a dark movie theater. Sorry, I guess I should learn to pay better attention as I readI know that, but the question was Did you ONCE believe in it??
I am Catholic also and have been all my life, but for a short time (no, a long time, actually
You are fortunate if you never believed it…
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Alexius
Guest
I used to be a really hard-core OSAS advocate. I really don’t know what changed my mind–maybe the Bible verses I was unaware of that oppose it…?
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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distracted
Guest
but if they are saved no matter what, it doesn’t make a difference, does it (whether they fall away)?
That answer always bugged the crud out of me… It seems it is more a “non-answer”… a way of avoiding the issue… or something…
No doubt…
… even so, I wish everyone would have this thought - and more often!!!
Could you explain? I don’t understand what you mean here…
what i don’t understand is: why did this bother you if you were “saved no matter what”?
You probably already know this… but even if a person falls into sin through weakness (not intent)… the sin causes a “fall” in the person that inevitably leads to other falls… and then, even if the person loves Jesus and wants to follow Him… the person’s life is a mess (mine was) and the person is not doing God’s work… (etc, etc.) and pretty soon… well, even if the person doesn’t fall into serious mortal sin… the person is muddying up his/her soul & “storing up wrath for the day of wrath”… (at least a very long stay in Purgatory). I’ve heard that the average stay in Purgatory is 40 years!!!
How did you 1st become interested in the Catholic faith? I love conversion stories…
thanks… God bless.
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distracted
Guest
that’s the scary thing - that the other side sometimes seems ot make sense… but it really doesn’t when one looks at ALL the scriptures and not just the ones OSAS poeple use…
…another scary thing… I have had it happen that i thought i was doing very well with God… but when i spent time with Jesus @ the Blessed Sacrament, i found out different… Of course, i stayed with Him for awhile and Jesus helped me to “get right” again (showed me “things”
)…So true… the devil (and our own flesh) can lie to us so well…
so have you ever been to RCIA?
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distracted
Guest
I have never had this particular problem…. Sorry, I guess I should learn to pay better attention as I read
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Cat
Guest
distracted,
I stated that a sect that teaches OSAS does NOT allow a person to fall into habitual sin.
You asked me to explain.
When I was involved with OSAS churches, we didn’t see people who had addictions to anything. If someone was addicted, they either hid it or left the church. It simply wasn’t acceptable to be a struggling alcoholic (although it was OK to be a recovered alcoholic), a smoker, an overeater, a porn addict, etc. People who were really, truly Christians simply would not be tempted by these addictive sins, and if someone WAS tempted–well, then that means that they weren’t really, truly Christians!
Of course, the addiction of overeating (or simply of eating the wrong kinds of foods in moderate amounts) isn’t easy to hide! So that “sin” was kind of not really a sin, or at least, it wasn’t as sinful as drinking, smoking, and porn. But it would be BETTER if Christians were all in shape, beautiful, thin, sexy, and did NOT eat immoderately ever.
At the time, I saw nothing wrong with any of this.
But when I started stepping back and taking a look at it, I realized that what they were teaching was that we had to be perfect RIGHT NOW!
I saw this illustrated graphically in our former Evangelical Free church. A group of men from the local rescue mission started attending. They all smoked, and after church, would go outside and smoke.
The church pastors told them that if they wanted to smoke, they had to go out by the garbage dumpster, several hundred feet away from the church. They strongly suggested that the men just leave their smokes at the mission, or better yet, quit like real Christians. After all, if you have Jesus in you, you can do anything!
This really angered me. What I saw was not the power of Christ making all the “real Christians” in that church so “sin free,” but rather, their basically “disciplined” personalities keeping them moderate in their eating and free from addictive tendencies. After all, there are a lot of pagans and atheists who live moderate, even aesthetic, lifestyles, and have no vices or addictions.
Anyway, I came to realize that these OSAS people expected a Christian to be PERFECT now, not in the future, or in heaven. If you were addicted to something, or if you had problems with any other sin (e.g., losing your temper, speaking too loudly, saying “Oh my God!” or “Gosh!”, watching TV shows other than Andy Griffith, etc.)–you really needed to give serious thought to the possibility that maybe you weren’t really a Christian at all!
I think this is really, really sad. In the Catholic Church, it is acceptable to be “sinful.” All of the people in line for Confession testify that “yes, I’ve sinned AGAIN!” When we pray the Confiteor and the priests ask for forgiveness for our sins (during Mass), again, there is the admission that we are all still sinful and ON OUR WAY to being perfect. We’re all working on it! But it’s OK to blow it–we won’t be “shunned” because we are standing in that Confession line. We won’t be accused of not really being serious about God.
Yes, if we commit a mortal sin, that’s a loss of salvation (not a loss of being a Christian), but we have a refuge to receive forgiveness and be welcomed back. We won’t be shunned and turned out of the Church, or made to go and stand by the garbage dumpster.
BTW, the men stopped coming to that church.
I stated that a sect that teaches OSAS does NOT allow a person to fall into habitual sin.
You asked me to explain.
When I was involved with OSAS churches, we didn’t see people who had addictions to anything. If someone was addicted, they either hid it or left the church. It simply wasn’t acceptable to be a struggling alcoholic (although it was OK to be a recovered alcoholic), a smoker, an overeater, a porn addict, etc. People who were really, truly Christians simply would not be tempted by these addictive sins, and if someone WAS tempted–well, then that means that they weren’t really, truly Christians!
Of course, the addiction of overeating (or simply of eating the wrong kinds of foods in moderate amounts) isn’t easy to hide! So that “sin” was kind of not really a sin, or at least, it wasn’t as sinful as drinking, smoking, and porn. But it would be BETTER if Christians were all in shape, beautiful, thin, sexy, and did NOT eat immoderately ever.
At the time, I saw nothing wrong with any of this.
But when I started stepping back and taking a look at it, I realized that what they were teaching was that we had to be perfect RIGHT NOW!
I saw this illustrated graphically in our former Evangelical Free church. A group of men from the local rescue mission started attending. They all smoked, and after church, would go outside and smoke.
The church pastors told them that if they wanted to smoke, they had to go out by the garbage dumpster, several hundred feet away from the church. They strongly suggested that the men just leave their smokes at the mission, or better yet, quit like real Christians. After all, if you have Jesus in you, you can do anything!
This really angered me. What I saw was not the power of Christ making all the “real Christians” in that church so “sin free,” but rather, their basically “disciplined” personalities keeping them moderate in their eating and free from addictive tendencies. After all, there are a lot of pagans and atheists who live moderate, even aesthetic, lifestyles, and have no vices or addictions.
Anyway, I came to realize that these OSAS people expected a Christian to be PERFECT now, not in the future, or in heaven. If you were addicted to something, or if you had problems with any other sin (e.g., losing your temper, speaking too loudly, saying “Oh my God!” or “Gosh!”, watching TV shows other than Andy Griffith, etc.)–you really needed to give serious thought to the possibility that maybe you weren’t really a Christian at all!
I think this is really, really sad. In the Catholic Church, it is acceptable to be “sinful.” All of the people in line for Confession testify that “yes, I’ve sinned AGAIN!” When we pray the Confiteor and the priests ask for forgiveness for our sins (during Mass), again, there is the admission that we are all still sinful and ON OUR WAY to being perfect. We’re all working on it! But it’s OK to blow it–we won’t be “shunned” because we are standing in that Confession line. We won’t be accused of not really being serious about God.
Yes, if we commit a mortal sin, that’s a loss of salvation (not a loss of being a Christian), but we have a refuge to receive forgiveness and be welcomed back. We won’t be shunned and turned out of the Church, or made to go and stand by the garbage dumpster.
BTW, the men stopped coming to that church.
T
tundramom
Guest
I’m going to really try not to ramble…
I used to believe in OSAS… to a point. I came out of Mormonism very wary of believing everything that anyone told me. I said my own version of the “sinner’s prayer” without being led by another into it. (for which I am VERY grateful! God knows my rebellious streak all too well.)
I started to attend an A/G church and with all the gifts being in play, thought that I would just sit back and take it all in and put whatever I didn’t understand on the shelf. I attended there for years and although there were many people in the congregation that had sin in their life, It seemed to be about getting others “saved” and not trying to become more holy in your own life. ( I hope that makes sense)
At the same time I attended a Catholic church and although the hooplah was much less, I was drawn by the Eucharist.
Coming from Mormonism, where I believed IF I did everything correctly I’d be a Goddess… and knowing that I would make a terrible Goddess myself… and not really wanting to have to share my husband with another goddess… LOL
Into the A/G church where I was taught more by action than actual teaching that one should come to church with that happy smile on your face… at some point cry… and don’t show too much weakness to an unbeliever or they might not want Jesus… WHEW!
I always knew I was a sinner. I knew I couldn’t make it alone without God’s Grace. I am a work in progress. Like St. Paul, I do what I do even though I don’t want to do what I do. (I call that passage Paul’s do-do thoughts LOL)
My hope is in the Lord. Not in saying a sinner’s prayer and then be OK. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could be perfect just by a simple formula. Unfortunately, I need HIS Grace more and more in all areas of my life.
in Christ
Steph
I used to believe in OSAS… to a point. I came out of Mormonism very wary of believing everything that anyone told me. I said my own version of the “sinner’s prayer” without being led by another into it. (for which I am VERY grateful! God knows my rebellious streak all too well.)
I started to attend an A/G church and with all the gifts being in play, thought that I would just sit back and take it all in and put whatever I didn’t understand on the shelf. I attended there for years and although there were many people in the congregation that had sin in their life, It seemed to be about getting others “saved” and not trying to become more holy in your own life. ( I hope that makes sense)
At the same time I attended a Catholic church and although the hooplah was much less, I was drawn by the Eucharist.
Coming from Mormonism, where I believed IF I did everything correctly I’d be a Goddess… and knowing that I would make a terrible Goddess myself… and not really wanting to have to share my husband with another goddess… LOL
Into the A/G church where I was taught more by action than actual teaching that one should come to church with that happy smile on your face… at some point cry… and don’t show too much weakness to an unbeliever or they might not want Jesus… WHEW!
I always knew I was a sinner. I knew I couldn’t make it alone without God’s Grace. I am a work in progress. Like St. Paul, I do what I do even though I don’t want to do what I do. (I call that passage Paul’s do-do thoughts LOL)
My hope is in the Lord. Not in saying a sinner’s prayer and then be OK. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could be perfect just by a simple formula. Unfortunately, I need HIS Grace more and more in all areas of my life.
in Christ
Steph
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distracted
Guest
Thanks for clarifying… That is interesting… I can kind of see the truth in their stand though… because if someone has a very strong love for Jesus, well, it seems the person would not be so easily entangled in certain destructive behaviors… yet, i remember when i was a lot younger… I wanted so badly to live a Christian life but i just didn’t have the power to do so… I would have good intnetions for a long time and do OK for awhile, but inevitably, some temptation would come along… Only praying the rosary got me out of that yo-yo mentality… and on the pathway to true holiness (&/or attempting to attain holiness…)… As stated elsewhere, though… if it weren’ for the Real Presence, i doubt i wouldbe a strong, devout, overcoming Christian… (@ least not for very long
)I can see where that would be a troublesome way to be a Christian… Of course, i sometimes feel that people in my life expect me to be Perfect Now… :banghead:
uch: so that is something that is probably universally human…Again, this is something that i feel is a universal misconception of what a Christian should be… It seems that as soon as you publicly proclaim yourself to be Christian, you are expected to be… well, frankly, you are expected to be more like Jesus than Jesus…
Reason i say that: most people don’t even know Jesus, meaning they don’t know/understand ALL of what Jesus taught… A good example is the Scripture passage today (St. Matthew 7;21) where he rejects even those who do mighty deeds… Well, a lot of people just wwant this warm, fuzzy Jesus, as it were… none of that Hell-fire and brimstone stuff… So if you warn people about this kind ofthing, it seems you are ostracized, seen as a fanatic or what have you… in other words, you are supposed to be made in the image of the warm-fuzzy Jesus, not the one who spoke of Hell…
Do you find that non-OSAS people expect this of you too??
This is the part of OSAS that really baffles me… how, if you are weak in any way, you must not really be saved… If a person thinks he/she doesn’t have any of the same weaknesses he sees so readily in his fellow Christians, well, need i say more??
Yeah… no kidding…
What people in line for confession?? At my Church, there is no line… but that’s a post for another thread, i guess… It just seems to me that many people go to Communion week after week but very few (my area) go to Confession…
Well, not really… I think you mean, it is “human” to blow it, not so much that it is OK…
Very true…
Wow… interesting that you make this distinction… but i guess that is probably the way to look at it…
That is what i really always loved about the Catholic Church… it never rejects anyone (unless a person rejects Her entirely… and even then, repentance is all that is needed to restore Communion)…
did they become Catholic??
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distracted
Guest
did you get those bible verses from a Catholic? Are you Catholic now??I used to be a really hard-core OSAS advocate. I really don’t know what changed my mind–maybe the Bible verses I was unaware of that oppose it…?
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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distracted
Guest
could you name one thing you didn’t understand??
does it ever make sense!! That is one thing that always annoyed me about some non-C religions… The focus was always outside self… Of course, it is also wrong to be too focused on self… and frankly, i think the catholics can go too far in that direction… if not careful…
How did you come to consider the Catholic Church? Did you have a friend who was Catholic or what ? When did you 1st learn of Catholicism??
so were you in the FLDS? Because i htought the mainstream Mormons didn’t believe in polygamy anymore? Or is it the case that they believe in it but don’t want to violate US laws??
I think that is the case throughout society generally, not just in one church or another… You aren’t supposed to admit weakness… (so called)…God bless…
T
tundramom
Guest
could you name one thing you didn’t understand??
I think the most was all the “prophetic” ministries which guest-preached at the church. I didn’t understand all the focus on being there every time the church was open. I couldn’t connect singing the song “come, now is the time to worship… come, just as you are before your God” and then being told that I had to wear this or that or don’t wear too much makeup and then seeing others wear a TON… think Tammy Faye.
does it ever make sense!! That is one thing that always annoyed me about some non-C religions… The focus was always outside self… Of course, it is also wrong to be too focused on self… and frankly, i think the catholics can go too far in that direction… if not careful… How did you come to consider the Catholic Church? Did you have a friend who was Catholic or what ? When did you 1st learn of Catholicism??
I agree that some Catholics can go too far in the other direction if not careful as well. I came to the Catholic church through my husband. He is a life-long Catholic and I started attending with him when I was still a Mormon. After being “saved” we attended both the Catholic church and the A/G church every single Sunday.
so were you in the FLDS? Because i htought the mainstream Mormons didn’t believe in polygamy anymore? Or is it the case that they believe in it but don’t want to violate US laws??
No I was not FLDS. Although most Mormons will tell you today that they don’t focus on polygamy, but it is still right there in their book of Doctrine and Covenants. Mainstream Mormons still have a desire to get to the highest level of Heaven where they will procreate as god’s and godesses. Of course there will be more godesses than gods.
I think that is the case throughout society generally, not just in one church or another… You aren’t supposed to admit weakness… (so called)…
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