Did you see the opening mass for WYD?

[MarkThompson]

Similarly, in Living Miracles: The Spiritual Sons of John Paul the Great, Randall Meissen quotes Fr. Anthony Denton, vocations director for the Archdiocese of Melbourne:
I asked Father Anthony for his perspective about the effect John Paul has had on the groups of seminarians entering in the several years before and after his death. “I think all of them have in some way been influenced by John Paul,” he said. “Certainly, following John Paul II’s death in 2005, we had a big influx of calls an inquiries. In terms of an attitude among seminarians, I think this is where World Youth Day comes into it. We had a meeting at the seminary to work out how the seminarians would participate in the activities surrounding World Youth Day 2008 in Sydney. The auxiliary bishop asked the group of seminarians: ‘Who would day that World Youth Day had an influence on your vocation?’ Out of a group of about fifty – the majority from Melbourne, but some from the surrounding dioceses as well – somewhere from a third to a half put their hands up. In that sense, World Youth Day, which is one of the great hallmarks of Pope John Paul II, has had a continuing influence.”

 

[5Loaves]

Afterfeast of the Dormition of the Mother of God
Glory be to God for all things!
Br. JR-

What was beautiful about it to one who is a student of Religious Schools In The Catholic Church, as I am, was to see the stern, austere Franciscan melody followed by the almost vaporous, incense like Carmelite melody sung after Communion. Both are very old, dating back to the era of Trent. Teresa’s prayer was done with strings, just as Teresa composed it. …

The differences have to do with the two schools. Franciscanism is Incarnational. Carmel is Transcedant. I’m sorry. I get all excited. My doctorate was a comparison of Teresa of Avila and Francis of Assisi…

You can feel their detachment in their music. Francis grounds you in the mystery of the God-Man, where you cease to be you, in order to let him take over. Teresa elevates you to the mystery of the eternal God where you cease to be you, in order to be lifted up to thim as a feather is carried by a gentle breeze.

The thought of all this rich tradition being pulled together by people who are young enough to be my grandchildren, is very inspiring and hopefull…

In the Eastern Churches we says “Liturgy is the catechesis” and truly it is. Sometimes however I point out to our clergy that of the many things that go on outside of our view, behind the Iconostasis, we would benefit from some *overt *catechesis. We also talk about the Invisible made visible in our Liturgical life. Again, sometimes it helps to have one’s attention brought to that by having something actually pointed out.

So, I truly appreciate the catechesis you have provided in this thread, directing our attention to these things which might well have remained “invisible” to us who don’t have your background. I have only pulled out and quoted a tiny part of what you’ve said throughout this thread that has been very useful for me. I heard some of the opening Mass this morning on the radio and am looking forward to watching it perhaps tonight with the benefit of all you have alerted us to here. How blest we are to be able to be exposed all over the globe to the richness of these venerable traditions of the Church!

I also, very much appreciate the background you offered about WYD

He [Bl. John Paul] creates a modern event that is deeply rooted in two very important Catholic traditions, the Benedictine ministry to pilgrim youth and the Franciscan tradition of the Chapter of Mats.

which you elaborated so well in the rest of that post.

Posting from my home in the Bay of San Francisco, our Franchesco.
Pax et bonum!

 

[JReducation]

The statement
As for claims that World Youth Day is a seedbed for vocations, **“I admit I was a little skeptical some years ago about whether it was a flash in the pan, and how do you carry it forth with some energy,” **he said. But studies have shown that a significant portion of young men and women entering religious life cite the international event as an experience that contributed to their vocations.
The key thing, he said, is that there is follow-up and support after World Youth Day is over.

The bolded part represents his words, not some interpretation of his words by someone else…Interesting that the second part and third parts are not set off by quotation marks. .That alone speaks volumes.

You know, you don’t have to call the writer’s integrity and honesty into question for the sake of argument. Often writers will paraphrase something. It’s not unusual that they misquote things too. However, your response “it speaks volumes” also speaks volumes. What it tells us is that no matter what we say, you will find a fault with it. It’s not easy to have a dialogue with someone who does not meet us half-way.

They actually have a Poor Claire Monastery several blocks frommy house. They apparently haven’t shared in this renewal, Their avarage age is closer to70 and they haven’t had a new member in over 30 years. **Just an aberration I suppose./**QUOTE]

This is not necessary. If you had asked me, I could have answered. Even though you have not aske, I will respond.

Therer are 20,000 Poor Clare Nuns around the world. They are the second largest group of cloistered nuns, with the Discalced Carmelites being the largest.

Actually, both orders have seen remarkable growth during the John Paul II years. One wonderful example is Our Lady of the Angels, the monastery founded by Mother Angelica. It is full to capacity and has given birth to two daughter houses in less than 20 years. This is remarkable growth for enclosed communities. Most never give birth to a daughter house or may give bith to one.

There are other Poor Clare houses that are being allowed to die by attrition. The order is not placing much energy or money into keeping them open for different reasons. Sometimes the reason can be as simple as facilities. I know one Poor Clare monastery that was allowed to die, because the building was too old to refurbish it. It was cheaper to start a new monastery than to renovate the existing one. When the sisters dwindled to the point where there were three, they were sent to a new monastery and that property was closed. However, notice what I said. They were sent to a NEW monastery, with several nuns who were quite young. That monastery has since given birth to another monstery.

Sometimes a monastery is allowed to die because of sustainability. They cannot finance themselves. Enclosed houses must be finacially independent from the order. They are not like friars who share a common provincial purse. These monasteries exist in federations. The federation may agree to let one die, if it cannot support itself.

At other times, the monastery is in the wrong place and will not attract vocations. That happens too. You have to be in a fertile area. The monastery from which Mother Angelica came in Cleveland, almost died, because the economy went south, figuratively speaking. Therefore, the Catholics left Cleveland. It was saved by some miracle that Cleveland is beginning to recover. For a long time, they had no pool from which to draw vocations.

You can’t compete with your own sisters. That would be unfair. If three other houses are getting vocations and one is not, then you allow those three houses to grow and the one to die peacefully.

The answers to these questions are not always so difficult, if one wants to ask and be informed.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Afterfeast of the Dormition of the Mother of God
Glory be to God for all things!
Br. JR-

In the Eastern Churches we says “Liturgy is the catechesis” and truly it is. Sometimes however I point out to our clergy that of the many things that go on outside of our view, behind the Iconostasis, we would benefit from some *overt *catechesis. We also talk about the Invisible made visible in our Liturgical life. Again, sometimes it helps to have one’s attention brought to that by having something actually pointed out.

So, I truly appreciate the catechesis you have provided in this thread, directing our attention to these things which might well have remained “invisible” to us who don’t have your background. I have only pulled out and quoted a tiny part of what you’ve said throughout this thread that has been very useful for me. I heard some of the opening Mass this morning on the radio and am looking forward to watching it perhaps tonight with the benefit of all you have alerted us to here. How blest we are to be able to be exposed all over the globe to the richness of these venerable traditions of the Church!

I also, very much appreciate the background you offered about WYD

which you elaborated so well in the rest of that post.

Posting from my home in the Bay of San Francisco, our Franchesco.
Pax et bonum!

The red is mine. I love that statement. I had heard this before, but I could not place it. Now that you mention it, yes, it is very Eastern Catholic and Orthdox too. I believe it is.

I also agree that much goes undetected and should be pointed out to people, especially today. Most people today do not have the education in the arts, history, letters and social studies that we had. The education is more technical and more specialized. While it is good, because it prepares the young for the working world, its weakness is that it deprives them of a lot of culture.

I was at the chancery today. We were discussing the mass. There were several young sisters, seminarians and brothers at the table. They were fascinated as an older sister, priest and I pointed to different details that are part of Catholic tradition. For example, they had never heard of The Chapter of Mats. That’s because kids no longer read lives of saints in religious ed classes. Why would they know about something that is so Franciscan?

They had never heard of the Mozarabic Rite. They asked if there was a Mozarabic Church. These are young clerics and religious. But they don’t have the exposure to history that the three of us old folks have had. They were fascinated to know that many of these people were converts from Islam. Because the area was under Islamic rule since the 7th century. The Christians were very influenced by Arabic culture. There was intermarriage and conversions. Today’s Mozarabic Catholics are not really a Church, but Latin Catholics who are a blend of Arab and Spanish. One young sister referred to Teresa of Avila as the founder of the Carmelite nuns. When I told her that the Prophet Elijah is the Father of Carmel, she was confused. That led to the whole story of the Teresian reform and the birth of the Discalced Carmelities. This popped up, because we were talking about Teresa’s prayer having been sung after communion and how Teresa often played the guitar during mass or a Spanish instrument that looks like a bongo. I have no idea what it’s called. She liked music and they were not allowed to have organs or much of anything in their chapels. They were very austere.

But it was interesting to have lunch with these younger religious who saw the same mass on TV, but did not catch the finer points of Catholic tradition in Spain.

The same happens when you go to Lourdes. There are many little pieces of French Catholicism that you miss, if you know nothing about French history.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I suppose you can’t “know” much of anything to an epistemic certainty, but according to the statement from Archbishop Tobin that I posted above (#36), “a significant portion of young men and women entering religious life cite the international event as an experience that contributed to their vocations.” Now maybe these new religious could either be fibbing or just mistaken about what contributed to their own vocations, but it seems unlikely, no?

I wanted to modify what I said.

We can truly know but if those actually say that WYD influenced them, then we must take them at their word.

 

[tbtcom1213]

Here is the Youtube Upload

youtube.com/watch?v=nK88ajVI_f4

 

[JReducation]

I wanted to modify what I said.

We can truly know but if those actually say that WYD influenced them, then we must take them at their word.

I think this was the point that Archbishop Tobin was making. I read his comment in one of our Tau Magazines. It’s Franciscan publication, but you have to be Franciscan to get it. Don’t ask me why. Maybe because it’s free.

I digress, I think he was saying that you could have blown him over with a feather when he started to meet young religious who pointed to WYD and to Bl. John Paul II as the point where they first thought about the religious life. This were actual reports.

What is most interesting about this younger WYD generation of religious, if you will, is that it’s a very traditional generation. This is the generation that wears habits, that often looks back to the roots of its charism, whatever that may be, and the generation that is very obedient. This is lively, energetic and intelligent generation of young religious, but they are not out to grind an ax. Nor are they out to shove the Church forward at high speed. Actually, they tend to look back at the origins of their religious institutes and bring forward that same spirituality, mysticism, vision and mission.

They are going to take these religious institutes into the 21st century, by recovering the roots of religious life. These are young men such as the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal. I know that many Traditionalists do not like them or not like friars period, but I think it’s because of a misunderstanding, not because of ill-will.

For example, these Friars of the Renewal. The world “renewal” sends chivers up the spine of a Traditionalist. But these young men are ultra ultra conservative or Traditionalist Franciscans. They have gone back to the 13th century. Stop and look at some things about them. They are not monastic as all. They don’t chant the office or the mass. Francis banned chant from the office and the mass.

They do not live in monasteriies. Francis prohibitted monasteries, priories and priors.

They walk the streets and looke like slobs. Francis promoted that manner of ministry and that level of poverty.

They have no gadgets. If you want to communicate with them, you must write a regular letter with paper and stamp or go over to their house. Francis tore down libraries and big chapels, because they were too modern.

Their chapels are bare rooms with a table, tabernacle and enough chairs for the community. Francis did not allow choirs or chapels as we know them with all the statuary, high altars, railings etc. These were very typical of monks and of diocesan clergy. His friars were not monks, nor were they an order of priests. They were brothers and if priests joined them, they had ot downsize. In other words, they had to blend into the brotherhood.

These friars do rap, rock, play guitars, etc. Well, Francis composed Laudas in Provencal and in Italian, played a mandolin and used a sort of harp at mass.

These guys are really very traditional Franciscans. They obey without questioning, unless something is a sin. Francis had people excommunicated for questioning him.

They pray the LOTH while walking down the street or riding a bus. They don’t bother looking for a church or chapel to pray. They do however make sure to find another friar to pray with. Well, Francis did the same and rarely prayed the office in a chapel. He usually prayed it outside or while walking, but always with at least one more friar.

Now we have this younger generation of religious, who are actually much more traditional than many of us and they are pointing to WYD and to Bl. John Paul or Mother Teresa as their starting point. I forgot her. She has also influenced many young people to enter religious life.

I’m just using one community as an example. We have many religious from many communities, some older communities, such as the Carmelites, who have existed since the day after Creation and some very young communities such as the Missionaries of the Poor. They all have these young men or women who point to these events and to this pope as their inspiration.

This does not mean that every religious who enters today points to WYD or Pope John Paul II as his inspiration. That would be too much. But what the Archbishop is saying is that he is amazed at how many do point that way. I too was very moved at the Denver WYD and I’m not a kid. It made me think a great deal about my own vocation.

I believe the reason is the simple fact of exposure to the pope, the fact that it’s the pope who calls them to respond to Christ and the fact that there are so many religious present and available just to hand out with for a week, to pray with, to talk to, and to listen to. These are opportunities are not common. I had never met a Discalced Carmelite Nun, not a sister, a nun. I knew all about them from books. I met my first one at WYD in Denver. I was very impressed by them. They were not what I was expecting. They laughed, they swung to the music, they told jokes and stories and they knew a great deal about what was going on in the world. One of them really impressed me, because she had been a NY executive with some bank. These contacts do impress the kids. To see these women who live such an austere life and to find out that they are people like you who like fashion, music, TV, sports, cars, travel, etc and gave it all up to pray for the world, boggles your mind and blows your fuses.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TrueLight]

You know I’m watching the Seminarian’s Mass of WYD and it is absolutely beautiful.

If only most OF masses would maintain this very same reverence and beautiful music.

Unfortunately, if you miss your regular EF and decide to pop into the neighborhood OF, you have no idea what you’re going to get.

 

[JReducation]

You know I’m watching the Seminarian’s Mass of WYD and it is absolutely beautiful.

If only most OF masses would maintain this very same reverence and beautiful music.

Unfortunately, if you miss your regular EF and decide to pop into the neighborhood OF, you have no idea what you’re going to get.

That mass cost a small fortune to put together too. Most parishes can’t afford that kind of money or that kind of time. Remember, this is a mass for a target population. There is no mass before and after it. In a parish, you have from 5 to 7 masses. Imagine doing 7 masses like that every Sunday. The planning alone is considerable. I was involved in plannig such a mass for a Eucharistic congress. It took 6 months to do it. The population at this mass was about 4,500, at last count. That’s smaller than the average parish. The parish where I teach scripture has 3,500 families, 7 masses with about 800 people at each. That’s over 5,000 people every Sunday. As beautiful as this degree of preparation is, you can’t sustain that momentum week after week.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Alfonsus]

is recording of the closing Mass and vigil available now?

 

[Cat]

That mass cost a small fortune to put together too. Most parishes can’t afford that kind of money or that kind of time. Remember, this is a mass for a target population. There is no mass before and after it. In a parish, you have from 5 to 7 masses. Imagine doing 7 masses like that every Sunday. The planning alone is considerable. I was involved in plannig such a mass for a Eucharistic congress. It took 6 months to do it. The population at this mass was about 4,500, at last count. That’s smaller than the average parish. The parish where I teach scripture has 3,500 families, 7 masses with about 800 people at each. That’s over 5,000 people every Sunday. As beautiful as this degree of preparation is, you can’t sustain that momentum week after week.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you so much for saying this.

I appreciate Brother JR.s comments about austerity. That is a good way to describe many OF Masses in the U.S., which are, of necessity due to cost and personnel, simple and unadorned. A cantor and keyboardist usually lead the music–not very fancy, but correct and adequate and beautiful in a simple way.

So many people do not realize or appreciate that all the music that is done at Mass has to be planned, purchased, and practiced. It doesn’t just happen or materialize.

I play piano for OF Masses, and I can testify that even something as simple as playing a prelude means that I will have to spend extra time practicing and extra money buying a book of music.

Add more musicians, e.g., a cantor, a choir, other instrumentalists, etc., and you have a logistical challenge or even a nightmare. Also consider that all of these musicians have varying levels of skill; e.g., some read music and some don’t, some have classical background and others don’t. etc.

It is SO hard to find practice times when everyone is available all at the same, and it’s so hard to teach so many different musicians and try to bring about some kind of unity in the musical presentation. Maybe this is why so many OF Masses come off as “messy.” Maybe we need to remember this next time we are tempted to criticize OF Mass music. Maybe we in the U.S. need to accept and rejoice that Mass isn’t a show.

I have to admit that I dread the implementation of the “new” music for the new Mass translation, because I know that many people will be unable to attend the “special practice times” or “orientations” during which this music will be introduced and taught. It’s going to be messy, not because people are unwilling or rebellious or cafeteria-Catholics or secret Protestants, but because we are busy people.

JR, every word that you write is so beautiful. Your comments about tradition in this thread have actually made me appreciate the richness of Catholic tradition, and that’s unusual for me.

 

[ProVobis]

Nothing unusual here. Of course they use the OF. The kids more than likely wouldn’t recognize anything else,
Madrid, Spanish,the vernacular of course, a no brainer. We know that everyone is Spain speaks Spanish. But wait, what about those who speak Catalan? Or Basque,or Galician and Aranese? Or the thousands attending who don’t speak Spanish at all Just hyorrible.:tsktsk:

Well, at least it wasn’t in English, which many speak but no one understands.

 

[Skeptic92]

I was watching the opening mass for WYD in Madrid. It is absolutely beautiful. There are a few very striking points that I would like people to observe, if they can watch it live or when they replay it.

1. It uses the Ordinary Form
2. Most of the mass is in Spanish.
3. It is done with precision as the rubrics for the OF dictate.
4. I believe it is the first time that the votive mass for Bl. John Paul II is being used in public. The prayers were beautifully written.
5. It is absolutely beautiful in its austerity and in its solemnity.

The only weakness that I saw with it is the position of the sanctuary. It’s on the east side facing west. It seems that no one thought about the fact that the sun sets in the west. Being an evening mass, the sun is driving the concelebrants crazy. They are using white umbrellas to help them see. The umbrellas are annoying. Of well, that’s a minor detail.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

See it? I was there , it was beautiful, the streets of Madrid was packed, they actually ran out of hosts as they broke all expectations of attendance

 

[JReducation]

See it? I was there , it was beautiful, the streets of Madrid was packed, they actually ran out of hosts as they broke all expectations of attendance

Awesome! Please share.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[asia53]

Catholic News Agency: Two years after World Youth Day, Sydney sees upsurge in vocations and ordinations.

It’s happening here, too. Both seminaries filled to capacity, I have heard, but haven’t confirmed, there is a long waiting list. These young men are on fire, and all of them point to JPII and WYD as their inspiration.
I’ve spoken to a few, here and there, at events around the Archdiocese of Denver.

 

[JReducation]

It’s happening here, too. Both seminaries filled to capacity, I have heard, but haven’t confirmed, there is a long waiting list. These young men are on fire, and all of them point to JPII and WYD as their inspiration.
I’ve spoken to a few, here and there, at events around the Archdiocese of Denver.

In my little community which is just a few years old, we’ve just picked up eight postulants this summer. The community itself came out of WYD Denver, that’s not too long ago in comparison to the 800 year history of the Franciscan family.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[MarkThompson]

In my little community which is just a few years old, we’ve just picked up eight postulants this summer. The community itself came out of WYD Denver, that’s not too long ago in comparison to the 800 year history of the Franciscan family.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

That’s awesome, Brother!

 

[JReducation]

You know I’m watching the Seminarian’s Mass of WYD and it is absolutely beautiful.

If only most OF masses would maintain this very same reverence and beautiful music.

Unfortunately, if you miss your regular EF and decide to pop into the neighborhood OF, you have no idea what you’re going to get.

I was actually disappointed, not with the mass. The liturgy was beautiful. I was disappointed with two events, the mass for seminarians and the meeting with the sisters. One of the friars said that the English translators messed up and that’s how things did not go the way that the Vatican wanted. Others think that it was deliberate by the lay translator.

The mass for the seminarians was not well attended by religious men studying to be priests. The way that the word was translated for the USA, it implied that only those studying to be priests at seminaries were invited. There were 4500 men attending and only about 200 were religious. In fact, there are about 2,000 religious men studying to be priests. Many of them were in Madrid. They did not register, because they don’t study at seminaries.

The miscommunication that one of the MFVA Franciscans tried to correct, but it was too late, was the meeting with the sisters. The way that it was communicated in English is not the same way that it was in other languages. In other languages it said, non-clerical religious. In the Enlglish speaking countries they published it as a meeting with sisters. Many young religious brothers did not register to attend. They found out that they were invited, when they arrived in Madrid. It was too late to register. You had to do so several months ago.

Fr. Mark Mary and Mr. Doug Barry were talking aboiut this meeting with the sisters. Standing next to them was Br. Tarcisius Marie, who is not a priest and is not going to be a priest, but who was going to the meeting. When Mr. Barry said something about the “meeting with the sisters this afternoon”, Fr. Mark looked over to his side and quickly said, “And religious brothers too.”

At first, there were some upset religious men. Now, it’s beginning to look more like the lay organizers were not well informed. The average lay person has no idea that most religious studying to be priests are not seminarians and no idea that a religious brother is not a seminarian, but a real religious. Many think that Brother is someone who is going to graduate to Father. It would not occur to Northerners to invite the brothers to a meeting with non clerical religious, because in their mind, the brothers are stuyding to be priests.

Whereas, the South Americans and Africans did send their brothers. Their communication had different wording, because they have never had the Father and Sister model of Church. They have many brothers, sisters, deacons and lay missionaries. What they lack are priests. They have many American, European, Canadian and Caribbean brothers.

Something was learned at this WYD. This too falls into the area of tradition. I think that the lay organizers were made more aware of the different traditions in the Church. Some were sad that certain people were excluded, because of poor use of language and a lack of understanding of the traditions.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

That’s awesome, Brother!

I’m their Formation Director. Four of them are WYD graduates. It’s the most diverse group of men that I have ever formed. They range from ages 22 to 43.

Two businessmen
Two engineers
One priest
One journalist
One police officer
One medical doctor

How’s that for diversity?

One lady was a hoot. She referred to the priest as Father. He corrected her and said, “I’m no longer Father. I’m Brother.” This sweet lady, who must be about 75, asked him, “What did you do to get demoted?”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[5Loaves]

…The mass for the seminarians was not well attended by religious men studying to be priests. The way that the word was translated for the USA, it implied that only those studying to be priests at seminaries were invited. There were 4500 men attending and only about 200 were religious. In fact, there are about 2,000 religious men studying to be priests. Many of them were in Madrid. They did not register, because they don’t study at seminaries…

At first, there were some upset religious men. Now, it’s beginning to look more like the lay organizers were not well informed. The average lay person has no idea that most religious studying to be priests are not seminarians and no idea that a religious brother is not a seminarian, but a real religious. Many think that Brother is someone who is going to graduate to Father…

Something was learned at this WYD. This too falls into the area of tradition. I think that the lay organizers were made more aware of the different traditions in the Church. Some were sad that certain people were excluded, because of poor use of language and a lack of understanding of the traditions.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

As we say in the world of interpreting “You can’t interpret what you don’t understand.” I think religious interpreting is some of the most challenging, and this is yet another reason why that is so, one I’d not thought of before.

I’m blest to live fairly near the local Dominican Priory and to go to daily Mass there about once a week. The guys all look the same to me until the stoles appear when the priests are moving up to con-celebrate and the brothers remain in the choir stalls, especially clear right now in summer when the students are all away. That will change any day now when the students return, as will the chant, hurray!