Did your church save people?

[Christian_Unity]

God saves people through His Church…

God saves people through His Son.

 

[Reuben_J]

God saves people through His Son.

And His Son asks us to go out and … .

 

[Christian_Unity]

And His Son asks us to go out and … .

proclaim the gospel to all…

 

[Reuben_J]

proclaim the gospel to all…

… and baptize them … . so that they can be saved. Why he does not do it himself, I wonder …

 

[Ion]

… The church is participating in God’s saving work, but it is not the church that saves.

Genesis 4: "…she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have produced a man with the help of the Lord”

Eve said “I have produced”; didn’t say something like “we participated in creation work”

 

[Ion]

I don’t want a discussion related to “saved by faith-saved by works”;

How can one make a difference getting the gospel from this church?
romancatholicwomenpriests.org/

Those women say they have baptized children…

 

[ltwin]

Genesis 4: "…she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have produced a man with the help of the Lord”

Eve said “I have produced”; didn’t say something like “we participated in creation work”

The Church doesn’t produce Christians. Sinners are born again as a result of God’s grace and are “called out” (ekkesia) of the world and set apart for Christ’s glory.

 

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[ltwin]

I don’t want a discussion related to “saved by faith-saved by works”;

How can one make a difference getting the gospel from this church?
romancatholicwomenpriests.org/

Those women say they have baptized children…

And? If a man preaches the gospel and a woman preaches the gospel, what is the difference? It’s the same gospel. And as I understand it, Catholics believe that anyone can baptize children and the sacrament be valid if there is correct form, matter, and intent.

 

[Ion]

And? If a man preaches the gospel and a woman preaches the gospel, what is the difference? It’s the same gospel. And as I understand it, Catholics believe that anyone can baptize children and the sacrament be valid if there is correct form, matter, and intent.

Baptism in extreme circumstances (was not the case) must be followed by the baptism by a real priest, if the person survives.
Are woman priests ok in your church view, or only in your personal view?

And what did Simon try to buy? He could have learn the wording for free…

 

[ltwin]

Baptism in extreme circumstances (was not the case) must be followed by the baptism by a real priest, if the person survives.
Are woman priests ok in your church view, or only in your personal view?

My church doesn’t have a priesthood. We believe in the priesthood of all believers. My church does believe that women can preach the gospel, minister the ordinances of the church, pastor and exercise leadership in the church.

And what did Simon try to buy? He could have learn the wording for free…

Dude, I’m Pentecostal and if we start talking about Simon Magus we’ll get into a discussion that will completely derail this thread. I’ll pass on this one.

 

[Ion]

It is a free world. Anybody can imagine anything, say anything…
But tradition comes only through orthodox/catholic churches.
My personal opinion is that Jesus Christ didn’t specifically write anything for us, so people were building the faith on the tradition.

 

[Adamski]

Isn’t there no salvation outside the catholic church, which means one can be saved that isn’t a member but it is through the church Christ founded still

 

[Ion]

I hope doesn’t sound like a heresy, but can be one church (in priciple ) in many other churches (in detail)? Isn’t there some witing about the subject? There should be something…
What defines a church? Probably theologians didn’t think of the subject because they considered valid only one church. Theirs.
When can you say a group of people make a church?

 

[guanophore]

We know that the mystical body of our lord,is the church.To be in that body you must first of all to be in the body of a wordly chuch, no? With the help of this wordly church one can make it in the mystical body of our Lord. Does you church prove to be like this?

No.

None of us knows who all is contained in His mystical body. We know for sure that not everyone in it is recognizable as a member of a visible church here on earth.

I would contend that there is no such thing as a “worldly church”. Any Church that has members who are part of the mystical body of Chirst is, by definition, spiritual and not “worldly”.

If you mean “visible” on earth as the member of a church, this is not a requirement to be part of His mystical body.

How does a church save people? By doing what is necesary for their salvation, starting with baptism instruction and so on.

Human beings are saved by grace, through faith, not by “doings”.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.

 You dont know what a wordly church is?

No. I have only heard this term use pejoratively for ecclesial communities that are focused on secular values.

Any congregation for Christ name.

This is absurd. Plenty of non - Christian congregations use the name of Christ, but are so far departed from the historical faith that they can no longer be called Chrisitan.

Do you have proof that somebody from your church has been saved?

I can only imagine that such a line of questioning is intended to discredit non-Catholic communities.

How does a church save people? By doing what is necesary for their salvation, starting with baptism instruction and so on.

Human beings are saved by grace, through faith, not by “doings”.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.

 You dont know what a wordly church is?

No. I have only heard this term use pejoratively for ecclesial communities that are focused on secular values.

Any congregation for Christ name.

This is absurd. Plenty of non - Christian congregations use the name of Christ, but are so far departed from the historical faith that they can no longer be called Chrisitan.

Do you have proof that somebody from your church has been saved?

I can only imagine that such a line of questioning is intended to discredit non-Catholic communities.

Remember, Lutherans don’t think of ourselves as a separate Church in that we view ourselves as part of one holy, catholic, and apostolic church.

So as a member of valid continuation of the Western Church, most any proof you could offer, I could offer as well.

As an aside, I find the question a bit troubling from a Catholic perspective - as I understand it, even with “no salvation outside of church.” Catholic doctrine says that salvation outside of church is still in God’s hands. So I would say your question would be better asked in prayer. We could use all the help we can get.

Not quite. Catholic doctrine IS that there is no salvation outside of the Church.

The caveat is that there may be members of the mystical Body of Christ (outside of which there is no salvation) that may not be visible to us in this world as such members. They may be, as you note above, members of the One, Holy, Cahtolic and Apostolic Church, yet appear to be members of ecclesial communities that are actually in visible opposition to Catholicism.

But since there is ony One Body, and all who are members of Christ are members of it, there is no salvation outside of it.

  The only way I know how is by proclaiming the gospel. But the "church" doesn't save. The church is participating in God's saving work, but it is not the church that saves.

I think what the OP is getting at is that the Church is the Ark of God in the world. We are saved “through” it.

Eph 3:7-12

7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace which was given me by the working of his power. 8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; 10 that **through the church **the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord

Being in Christ is synonomous in the scriptures with being in Christ:

Eph 5:23-24
Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 As the church is subject to Christ…

Col 1:24

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

So the Aposltes taught that anyone who is in Christ is also a member of His One Body, the Church. Therefore saying we are saved by Christ is the same as saying we are saved “by” the Church, as the two are one. This is a stark contrast to the modern evangelical notion that “it’s just me and Jesus” where it is thought one can be “in Christ” individually, without connection to the body of believers.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t think a church saves people. I believe God saves people from Himself.

Yes, this perception is not an uncommon result of the heresies of Calvanism, which claims that God’s wrath is more important and primal than His love. On the other hand, the Apostles taught that God saves people FOR Himself, because He loves them. And they taught that the Church is the container in this world in which the saving work of Christ is wrought.

Eph 1:19-23
…the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; 22 and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all.

God intended for His immeasurable greatness to be demonstrated in us who believe, and that the Church is His Body, and is the fulness of Him who fills all in all. The Apostles taught that there is no separation between Christ and His Body. This is clear in the book of Acts, where Paul testifies that he persecuted the Church, and yet, when Jesus confronted Him, Jesus said “why do you persecute ME”. Jesus is not separated, therefore, when He saves, He saves through His One Body, the Church.

I hope doesn’t sound like a heresy, but can be one church (in priciple ) in many other churches (in detail)? Isn’t there some witing about the subject? There should be something…
What defines a church? Probably theologians didn’t think of the subject because they considered valid only one church. Theirs.
When can you say a group of people make a church?

Yes, there have been massive amounts written about this, from the second century to the present day.

There are many who have been transformed by Christ in my church. If you knew them before they became Christians you'd see they are completely different people. The Bible says that we will know them by their fruits. What other kind of proof are you looking for? A baptismal certificate?

LOL. I think modern American Catholic attitudes and behaviors can clearly attest that a baptismal certificate certainly in no way assures that a person is being saved.