Didache and the sinful Church Authorities

[Peter_Gabriel]

Hello all,

  I am a protestant, but I have no issue with Catholicism.  If it is the truth, I would like to join the Church.  So here comes my question to the Catholics, I'm primarily looking for charitable insight - so if you are a protestant I'd appreciate your response as well, but I won't appreciate remarks intended to start a fight.   I know similar concerns have been addressed, but I have not found this covered specifically.  I was reading the Didache, and I was curious how the Catholic views the sinful Popes and Church leaders is in regards to this...

“every prophet who teaches the truth, if he do not what he teaches, is a false prophet” Chapter 11

I would appreciate any thoughtful response.

Thank you,

Peter

The rest of the Didache can be found here…newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

 

[John92]

Hello all,

  I am a protestant, but I have no issue with Catholicism.  If it is the truth, I would like to join the Church.  So here comes my question to the Catholics, I'm primarily looking for charitable insight - so if you are a protestant I'd appreciate your response as well, but I won't appreciate remarks intended to start a fight.   I know similar concerns have been addressed, but I have not found this covered specifically.  I was reading the Didache, and I was curious how the Catholic views the sinful Popes and Church leaders is in regards to this...

“every prophet who teaches the truth, if he do not what he teaches, is a false prophet” Chapter 11

I would appreciate any thoughtful response.

Thank you,

Peter

The rest of the Didache can be found here…newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

We have to remember that the Didache was written in the Apostolic Age. At this time Christians spoke in tongues and prophesied and all that; some of the Prophets were really under the influence of the Holy Spirit (like John of Patmos), others were just phonies trying to win money or prestige. So the author of the Didache is giving this as a decent “rule-of-thumb”: if your “prophet” is not a holy man who follows the teachings of Christ he is a false prophet.

This is totally separate from our understanding of the Papacy. The important thing to remember is that the Church, Bride of Christ, is completely pure and holy; but the members, including members of the hierarchy, are not always such. The Papacy, Episcopacy, etc. are all holy, but the members are not necessarily. There’s a good parallel to this in the Old Testament: the Priesthood of Aaron was created by God to offer sacrifice for his people Israel (just like the Priesthood of Christ was created by God to offer sacrifice for the Church, as well as his other duties), but clearly those who were in the levitical Priesthood could be pretty nasty blokes.

It should also be remembered that there are few men who are purely good or purely evil and this goes for the Popes as well. There were many corrupt Popes who still had some wise things to say or did some good in some areas, etc.

We have great respect for and show obedience toward the Chair of St. Peter, even though he who occupies the chair may not be worthy of it (and I hardly think this applies today, or really has applied for a good long time), just as faithful Israelites had great respect for and were obedient toward the levitical Priesthood, even though the Priests themselves were often corrupt.

Hope I helped

 

[imkingdad]

For ALL have Sinned…

that should sum it up. even the POPE has a Confessor.

All the Prophets of old sinned… as the did the Apostles. as do your Protestant Ministers, Preachers, Evangelists, etc.

Nowhere in scripture or in church tradition do we find any teaching or evidence to the contrary of the “ALL have Sinned…” statement ( save Jesus & Mary)

However there is also NO Evidence that any POPE taught against scripture, Faith or Morals. which is usually where folks try & take this conversation after we admit that “ALL have Sinned”. Does the Fact that someone has sinned lessen the Truth of their testimony or does it add strength to it ? Does the fact that they have overcome sin & temptation weaken or strengthen them, their Testimony & the Church they represent ?

Doesn’t Scripture teach us that the devil with continue to confront us & tempt us & even torture us in order to get us to turn from Christ, Paul wrote about his long-standing battle with his personal torment.

We, Catholics are fortunate in that we have Sacraments that provides us with added Grace each & every time we avail ourselves of them.

hope this helps,
Regards

 

[TheDoctor]

“every prophet who teaches the truth, if he do not what he teaches, is a false prophet” Chapter 11

Hi Peter and welcome to the forums.

For a short answer, Catholics don’t consider the Pope or church leaders “prophets” in the sense I believe it was being used in the Didache. Just taking that small snippet, it simply means that those who claim to be sent with a message from God (prophets) must have actions that match that words. It is very similar to the way Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for praying loudly in the temple and then doing wrong out on the street.

Just reading into your post, if one of your major stumbling blocks is the Papacy I suggest going here catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp (if you have not already) to get some solid background. Second, search the forums for threads on specific questions and then third come back and post with specific questions we can help you with.

From my conversations with my protestant friends, the papacy is perhaps *the *biggest issue for them because while we can debate issues of theology, the papacy is either or. Either Jesus did not leave Peter as the head of His Church and so there is no earthly authority or Jesus did leave Peter as head of His Church and so all earthly authority rested with Peter and now rests with Peter’s successors.

I pray God will lead you in your journey.

 

[fultonfish]

You might find some interesting discussions in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

There is a button at the top of the page, “Encyclopedia”. It is excellent. Browse through there.

There has been a lot of discussion on papal infallibility versus impecibility, for example. [not sure I spelled that right]

Anyway, welcome to Catholic Answers and to the Forums.

The Catholic Church is amazing. And it has a rich history of writing and teaching.

There are writers such as St. Augustine [in my opinion the best writer of the first thousand years] and St. Thomas Aquinas [in my opinion, the best writer of the second thousand years]. And both of these are on the internet. Augustine’s sermons can be found on the internet.

My current contemporary favorite is Fulton Sheen. [Obviously! ]

Check out also the other references available on Catholic Answers. The short pamphlets (tracts) ; you can either buy them or (I think) find them on-line on CA and then look up things. Karl Keating has written a lot on topics of interest to inquiring minds.

Have a great time pursuing your inquiries.

Please enjoy your reading and studying.

Fabulous stuff available.

 

[Peter_Gabriel]

Thank you for your responses, they were helpful. Imkingdad, I didn’t mean to imply that if a leader had sinned he was a false prophet, I was only curious if there was a satisfactory response to the quote from the Didache. I understood the quote to mean someone who lived a lifestyle completely contrary to what he taught, not someone who falls short. Though I could be wrong. Also, if I have more questions should I start a new thread or post in this one?

Thanks again,

Peter

 

[TheDoctor]

Peter - if you have more questions or need clarification on the quote, keep posting here. If you have new questions on different topics start a new thread for each one.

 

[Hlafdige]

Remember the story of Balaam and his donkey, in the Book of Numbers? Even a corrupt and false prophet can be prevented from an official pronouncement of untruth, if God so wills.

 

[YADA]

Thank you for your responses, they were helpful. Imkingdad, I didn’t mean to imply that if a leader had sinned he was a false prophet, I was only curious if there was a satisfactory response to the quote from the Didache. I understood the quote to mean someone who lived a lifestyle completely contrary to what he taught, not someone who falls short. Though I could be wrong. Also, if I have more questions should I start a new thread or post in this one?

Thanks again,

Peter

Welcome to CAF Peter…

You might look at the various lives and actions of the Popes and the Didache passage this way …

The Popes are human beings with the same human tendencies as you or I … However, Jesus taught [promised] that His Church would prevail over any attempt by Satan to corrupt and destroy it … Jesus also entrusted the Church to Peter’s [and his successors] care … Blessed are you Simon son of John, … you are Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church … I give you the keys to Heaven and Earth, whatever you bind on Earth is bound in Heaven whatever you loose on Earth is loosed in Heaven and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail …

Thus, the Popes are prevented from teaching in error on the [Christian] faith and issues of morality … they can sin - personally. Yes the Church has had some awful Popes but none - not one - has instructed the faithful to sin or commit immoral actions, not one has taught that Jesus is not Lord and Savior, not one has taught that Jesus is not the “Way, the Truth and the Life” …

Does that help? … if you seek a faith tradition where every leader has led an absolutely sinless life after assuming that leadership role - you will not have a faith tradition to belong to … especially in the Christian tradition … becuase, every denomination - no matter how large or small - how centralized [like the Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, etc] or decentralized/independent [like the Evangelicals, Bible Based, Fundamentalists, etc] has had a leader at some point in time [or will] who will be a notorious sinner [even if this sin goes unknown/un discovered]…

 

[johnnykins]

Hello all,

  I am a protestant, but I have no issue with Catholicism.  If it is the truth, I would like to join the Church.  So here comes my question to the Catholics, I'm primarily looking for charitable insight - so if you are a protestant I'd appreciate your response as well, but I won't appreciate remarks intended to start a fight.   I know similar concerns have been addressed, but I have not found this covered specifically.  I was reading the Didache, and I was curious how the Catholic views the sinful Popes and Church leaders is in regards to this...

“every prophet who teaches the truth, if he do not what he teaches, is a false prophet” Chapter 11

I would appreciate any thoughtful response.

Thank you,

Peter

The rest of the Didache can be found here…newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

Here is all of Chapter 11. I think, in its totality, it is simply saying watch out for hypocrites and sinners. Certainly there have been Popes and others who were sinners and hypocrites. Note the Truth is still the Truth - just the messenger is flawed. It’s a practical guide for the gullible.
Look at the 3 day visit language - it’s saying don’t be taken.

Ditto on taking money - presumably for his own use.

And, if he orders a feast and eats - he’s suspect.

Popes and clerics don’t cease to be human - so don’t be taken in by their venality.

Good advice for the unwary.

earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-hoole.html
CHAPTER 11
11:1 Whosoever, therefore, shall come and teach you all these things aforesaid, him do ye receive;
11:2 but if the teacher himself turn and teach another doctrine with a view to subvert you, hearken not to him; but if he come to add to your righteousness, and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord.
11:3 But concerning the apostles and prophets, thus do ye according to the doctrine of the Gospel.
11:4 Let every apostle who cometh unto you be received as the Lord.
11:5 He will remain one day, and if it be necessary, a second; but if he remain three days, he is a false prophet.
11:6 And let the apostle when departing take nothing but bread until he arrive at his resting-place; but if he ask for money, he is a false prophet.
11:7 And ye shall not tempt or dispute with any prophet who speaketh in the spirit; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven.
11:8 But not every one who speaketh in the spirit is a prophet, but he is so who hath the disposition of the Lord; by their dispositions they therefore shall be known, the false prophet and the prophet.
11:9 And every prophet who ordereth in the spirit that a table shall be laid, shall not eat of it himself, but if he do otherwise, he is a false prophet;
11:10 and every prophet who teacheth the truth, if he do not what he teacheth is a false prophet;
11:11 and every prophet who is approved and true, and ministering in the visible mystery of the Church, but who teacheth not others to do the things that he doth himself, shall not be judged of you, for with God lieth his judgment, for in this manner also did the ancient prophets.
11:12 But whoever shall say in the spirit, Give me money, or things of that kind, listen not to him; but if he tell you concerning others that are in need that ye should give unto them, let no one judge him.