Didn't James the Less believe in Jesus?

[TMC]

Let’s remember, that while tradition holds that James, Son of Alphaeus; James the Less; and James, Brother of the Lord are all the same person, there are some who feel these are actually 2 people.

I find it unlikely that the James who was one of Twelve is the same person as James, the brother of Jesus, because both Mark and John tell us that Jesus’ brothers did not follow him. That said, as I noted earlier, the vague nature of the sources and the number of similar names makes all of those determinations a bit unclear.

 

[hope]

I am not an expert in Greek are you?
This is the translation I have of the Greek
John Chapter 7

3: eipon <2036> (5627) {SAID} oun <3767> {THEREFORE} proV <4314> {TO} auton <846> oi <3588> {HIM} adelfoi <80> autou <846> {HIS BRETHREN,} metabhqi <3327> (5628) {REMOVE} enteuqen <1782> {HENCE,} kai <2532> {AND} upage <5217> (5720) {GO} eiV <1519> thn <3588> {INTO} ioudaian <2449> {JUDEA,} ina <2443> {THAT} kai <2532> oi <3588> {ALSO} maqhtai <3101> sou <4675> {THY DISCIPLES} qewrhswsin <2334> (5661) ta <3588> {MAY SEE} erga <2041> sou <4675> {THY WORKS} a <3739> {WHICH} poieiV <4160> (5719) {THOU DOEST;}

Not being an expert I must rely on others. Not one translation uses “the brothers” Everyone that I find just say His brothers. It does not hint that it was every single one of His brothers nor does it say that they didn’t change their minds.

 

[BartholomewB]

I am not an expert in Greek are you?

No, I’m not an expert, but I can read it. This is the question I asked @Phil19034 in my post #6. Didn’t you read it?

Are you sure about that? John’s Greek reads οἱ ἀδελφοὶ αὐτοῦ (hoi adelphoi autou), which translates literally as “the brothers of him.” I don’t know much Greek, but the definite article would seem to suggest, in any language, that the meaning is all of them.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/7-5.htm

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Jesus’s father, Joseph, had a brother named Alphaeus, who had four sons: Simon, Joseph, Judas (Thaddeus), and James (the Less/Just). The latter two “cousins” were apostles, but Jn. 7:5 refers to Simon and Joseph, for they didn’t believe in Jesus, including Alphaeus, though later came to.

 

[hope]

Yes I read it. I read it differently than you do. Your reading is not in accord with all the translations which render it His brothers.

 

[Bithynian]

Are you sure about that? John’s Greek reads οἱ ἀδελφοὶ αὐτοῦ ( hoi adelphoi autou ), which translates literally as “the brothers of him.” I don’t know much Greek, but the definite article would seem to suggest, in any language, that the meaning is all of them.

At the time of Classical Greek, possessive pronouns and adjectives were emphatic (Jesus’ brothers as opposed to my brothers), and were uncommonly used outside of these contexts.

Definite articles often had the force of unemphatic possession: the οι hoi in Ιησους και οι αδελφοι Iesous kai hoi adelphoi (‘Jesus and the brothers’) often meant ‘his’. This use of the article is largely because Greek originally did not have definitive articles: the forms ο, η and το were demonstrative in origin ‘this, these, that, those’ (as is used in Homeric literature).

Koine Greek developed from Classical Greek by almost always using possessive pronouns and adjectives, even where the force of the definite article is possessive. So there’s an element of redundancy in phrases such as οι αδελφοι αυτου or το ονομα αυτου.

 

[twf]

I too find it difficult to reconcile some of these verses with the idea that St James the brother of Jesus is St James the Less. The fact that we are told that Jesus appeared first to Peter and the apostles, and THEN to James makes it pretty clear he is not one of the 12. How is that reconciled by those who believe James the Less and James the brother of Jesus are the same person?

While I am a Latin Catholic, I find the Eastern tradition interesting. In the Eastern tradition, St James the brother of Jesus, whom they honour with the title the Brother of God, was St Joseph’s son from his first marriage (remember in the ancient and venerable tradition of the East, St Joseph was a widower). It was this James who went on to be the Bishop of Jerusalem.

 

[John_Martin]

Very very often Greek uses the definite article where English never uses it.
Repeatedly Jesus is referred to as “The Jesus”.
It simply means “This One With The Name Jesus”, as in John 7:1, 6, et.Al.
And as to the brothers it simply meant "Even These Brethren (these relatives) who were present at that event (did not believe in him but were joining the rest of the mob in unbelief).

 

[OddBird]

Are you sure about that? John’s Greek reads οἱ ἀδελφοὶ αὐτοῦ ( hoi adelphoi autou ), which translates literally as “the brothers of him.” I don’t know much Greek, but the definite article would seem to suggest, in any language, that the meaning is all of them.

To complete @Bithynian’s remarks, Koine Greek, when it wants to say “all of them”, often uses expressions such as, for example, πάντες οἱ συνελθόντες, “all those who were gathered” (I just copied and pasted that from what I’m working on, a variant reading for Acts 2:37 in Codex Bezae), with πάντες (all, the indefinite adjective) plus the definite article. Classical Greek would not necessarily have a definite article here, but it’s pretty systematic in Koine Greek. It wouldn’t have shunned from writing πάντες οἱ ἀδελφοὶ αὐτοῦ.

 

[BartholomewB]

@Bithynian and @OddBird, thank you both for that information about the development of the Greek language.

Going back to the OP’s question, I’d like to ask you both for your personal view on the number of James in the NT: two or three? In other words, do you think it’s more likely, as a matter of history, that James the Less and James the Just were the same man or different men?

 

[EndTimes]

Going back to the OP’s question, I’d like to ask you both for your personal view on the number of James in the NT: two or three? In other words, do you think it’s more likely, as a matter of history, that James the Less and James the Just were the same man or different men?

As a matter of history? Opinion is never history, yes?

 

[OddBird]

I’ll be honest : I have never seriously thought about it before. I’ll need to read up a bit and see…

 

[EndTimes]

The question has already been exhaustively discussed by others… w/o coming to any definitive answer.

In the larger scheme of Salvation… and how we should be devoting / budgeting - our minds?

 

[OddBird]

In the larger scheme of Salvation… and how we should be devoting / budgeting - our minds?

Well, I think my approach here is different.

I do not see it as wasted time or mind space to have a better knowledge of how Jesus lived and with whom, and what the Early Church was like.

In terms of salvation, I’d say it brings me closer to God because it fosters intimacy with Scripture - not only on a superficial level, but with its “innards” and subtleties.

I personally have a lot of admiration for saints like saint Bede the Venerable or saint Dominic, who spent a good part of their lives studying Scripture tirelessly.

 

[EndTimes]

Well, I think my approach here is different.

I do not see it as wasted time or mind space to have a better knowledge of how Jesus lived and with whom, and what the Early Church was like.

In terms of salvation, I’d say it brings me closer to God because it fosters intimacy with Scripture - not only on a superficial level, but with its “innards” and subtleties.

I personally have a lot of admiration for saints like saint Bede the Venerable or saint Dominic, who spent a good part of their lives studying Scripture tirelessly.

As you’re allowed to … .

The Gospels and NT - lead me straight to Jesus -
which, in turn, is what all Apostles, Disciples and Known Saints did and do.
… I.E. … focussing upon Jesus - as He is found within Scriptures… and one’s Mind and Heart
along with Church Teachings

Engaging in what is already known to be endless and unsettled debates on what some might deem to be very obscure and most likely unknowable matters… is not my cuppa.

_

 

[OddBird]

Engaging in what is already known to be endless and unsettled debates on what some might deem to be very obscure and most likely unknowable matters… is not my cuppa.

To each their own!

 

[EndTimes]

To each their own!

Let us know if you ever arrive at the actual answer…

 

[OddBird]

Your reading is not in accord with all the translations which render it His brothers.

A translation is just that – a translation. It is made with the intent of getting the message across, as precisely as possible, but nuances are inevitably lost in the process. Literal translations, trying to render every single nuance, are pretty much unreadable because you end up with sentences that are completely foreign to how the language into which you’re translating a text normally expresses things.

@BartholomewB’s question (about the use of definite articles in Koine Greek) was basically ascertaining whether or not there was such a nuance here that hadn’t been made explicit in translation.

Also, I will point out that translating is often about making choices inside a more or less wide spectrum of possibilities opened by the original text. If you have good reason for it (ie if your own reading remains within that spectrum of possibilities), nothing prevents you from disagreeing with one, some or even most translations and making a different choice.

 

[Miguel2]

I just want to answers properly when someone ask me about the dogma of Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Would not be cool if I stayed quiet when confronted about It.

 

[TMC]

In the Eastern tradition, St James the brother of Jesus, whom they honour with the title the Brother of God, was St Joseph’s son from his first marriage (remember in the ancient and venerable tradition of the East, St Joseph was a widower). It was this James who went on to be the Bishop of Jerusalem.

Many Latin Catholics believe this as well. It is based on the Protoevangelium of James (in the east they use the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, which is largely based on the Protoevangelium of James). The Protoevangelium is still very influential in terms of “small t” Catholic tradition, but the step-brothers theory lost some favor after the time of St. Jerome, because St. Jerome promoted the idea that Joseph was a life-long celibate.