Dies Irae Suppressed?

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Today my Sacred Music History Professor told us that since Vatican II the “Dies Irae” is no longer used.

I pushed the question and asked “Is it uncommon, or is it no longer allowed” I can’t remember his exact remark, but it’s effect was “The Church no longer allows it”

I don’t think this is true, but I don’t have any source (aside from you) that I can find it in.

I thought that it was in the text for All Souls Day, but I couldn’t find it in my sacramentary (albeit, I am not very good with it)

Any help (with citations) would be appreciated.
 
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PioMagnus:
Today my Sacred Music History Professor told us that since Vatican II the “Dies Irae” is no longer used.

I pushed the question and asked “Is it uncommon, or is it no longer allowed” I can’t remember his exact remark, but it’s effect was “The Church no longer allows it”

I don’t think this is true, but I don’t have any source (aside from you) that I can find it in.

I thought that it was in the text for All Souls Day, but I couldn’t find it in my sacramentary (albeit, I am not very good with it)

Any help (with citations) would be appreciated.
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It is not to be allowed in the same place as it was in the Requiem Mass only because that part of the mass doesn’t exist in the Novus Ordo but it is ok for it to be used as a hymn.
 
I had A Requiem Mass said back in November for a friend (victim of Katrina)

Novus Ordo in Latin
Black Mass vestments
Ad orientem
I specifically requested the “Dies Irae” be Chanted in plainsong. As A matter of fact the priest asked Me did I want it said or sung. When I first made the arrangements! Before I even asked for it.

It was chanted immediately after the Epistle and before the Gospel. As A proper sequence.
You have never heard anything so Ethereal in your life.
The Non catholics who were present. All asked after Mass about it.
I dont know if it is allowed or not. But I hope it never goes away.
 
I just remembered something else. I read somewhere (dont ask,because i dont remember. There are a million books whirling around in my head) I read somewhere that after VII there was A desire to suppress all Sequences and Antiphons and hymns that had references in them to classical Mythology.

The Dies Irae does have one such allusion Teste David cum Sibylla. (As David and the Sibyl say) I think this is the reason, It was suppressed. (If it in fact was)
 
QUICUMQUE VULT:
I had A Requiem Mass said back in November for a friend (victim of Katrina)

Novus Ordo in Latin
Black Mass vestments
Ad orientem
I specifically requested the “Dies Irae” be Chanted in plainsong. As A matter of fact the priest asked Me did I want it said or sung. When I first made the arrangements! Before I even asked for it.

It was chanted immediately after the Epistle and before the Gospel. As A proper sequence.
You have never heard anything so Ethereal in your life.
The Non catholics who were present. All asked after Mass about it.
I dont know if it is allowed or not. But I hope it never goes away.
Click to expand...
does the Dies Irae replace the alleluia then?
 
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Brain:
does the Dies Irae replace the alleluia then?
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Dies Irae was the Sequence for the Requiem before the reforms of the Council. Today, the Mass for the Dead does not have a mandated Sequence, rather, the Dies Irae can be used as a regular hymn (e.g. Offertory). The Sequence used to go right before the Gospel after the Alleluia.

(BTW, the reference to the Sybil is indeed of pagan origin, but it simply means that Christ was awaited by both Jew [David] and Gentile [Sybil]).

There are only a few Sequences left for the Mass, and only one is actually mandated. These are Victimae Paschali Laudes for Easter Sunday (required) and the Easter Octave (optional), Veni Sancte Spiritus (Pentecost, optional), Lauda, Sion (Corpus Christi, optional), and Stabat Mater (Our Lady of Sorrows, optional).
 
Just to let you know, Dies Irae is in the post Vatican II Liturgy of the Hours. It is in the English version, in Latin. If the Church had any intention of suppressing it, they would not have put it in the Divine Office. Contrary to popular belief, Vatican II did not do away with 90% of the things people claim it did. The Church is not some how broken into two pieces, pre and post Vatican II. She is the same Body of Christ with the same holy doctrine.

Pax et Bonum

Seminarian Ted
 
QUICUMQUE VULT:
I just remembered something else. I read somewhere (dont ask,because i dont remember. There are a million books whirling around in my head) I read somewhere that after VII there was A desire to suppress all Sequences and Antiphons and hymns that had references in them to classical Mythology.

The Dies Irae does have one such allusion Teste David cum Sibylla. (As David and the Sibyl say) I think this is the reason, It was suppressed. (If it in fact was)
Click to expand...
The “Sibyl” reference is to a passage in Virgil’s 4th Eclogue which reports the Cumaean Sibyl as prophesying the birth of Christ. She appears on the Sistine ceiling and this ‘prophecy’ (generally acknowledged to be a mediaeval insertion) is the reason Dante chose Virgil as his guide through Hell and Purgatory.
 
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porthos11:
There are only a few Sequences left for the Mass, and only one is actually mandated. These are Victimae Paschali Laudes for Easter Sunday (required) and the Easter Octave (optional), Veni Sancte Spiritus (Pentecost, optional), Lauda, Sion (Corpus Christi, optional), and Stabat Mater (Our Lady of Sorrows, optional).
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The Sequence for the Day Mass of Pentecost is not optional. From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal:

“64. The Sequence, which is optional except on Easter Sunday and on Pentecost Day, is sung before the Alleluia.”
 
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porthos11:
Dies Irae was the Sequence for the Requiem before the reforms of the Council. Today, the Mass for the Dead does not have a mandated Sequence, rather, the Dies Irae can be used as a regular hymn (e.g. Offertory). The Sequence used to go right before the Gospel after the Alleluia.
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What about the GIRM quote written above by John Lilliburne? Or does that not apply because although the verse before the Gospel is said/sung, Allelulia is not?
 
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mosher:
It is not to be allowed in the same place as it was in the Requiem Mass only because that part of the mass doesn’t exist in the Novus Ordo but it is ok for it to be used as a hymn.
Click to expand...
The place for Sequences, when there is one for that particular day, in the Novus Ordo is right before the Alleluia. There is no church document saying that the Dies Irae may no longer be used, and something that was there before would not be dropped without a word.

Dies Irae- All Souls’ Day, Funerals, and the weekday Masses during the last week of Ordinary Time (Monday through Saturday before Christ the King). Optional

Victimae Paschali- Easter Sunday (Required), and the days of the Octave of Easter (optional)

Veni Sancte Spiritus- Pentecost (Required)

Lauda Sion- Corpus Christi (Optional)

Stabat Mater- Our Lady of Sorrows (Optional)
 
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mercygate:
The “Sibyl” reference is to a passage in Virgil’s 4th Eclogue which reports the Cumaean Sibyl as prophesying the birth of Christ. She appears on the Sistine ceiling and this ‘prophecy’ (generally acknowledged to be a mediaeval insertion) is the reason Dante chose Virgil as his guide through Hell and Purgatory.
Click to expand...
Yes I am very familiar with Virgil (Particularly the georgics) And i understand the reason it is in the Dies Irae.
In pagan rome people practiced divination by opening the Aneid at random and reading the first passage they came to. Much like some Fundamentalist Christians do with the Bible, even to this day.
 
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Teddymartin:
Just to let you know, Dies Irae is in the post Vatican II Liturgy of the Hours. It is in the English version, in Latin. If the Church had any intention of suppressing it, they would not have put it in the Divine Office. Contrary to popular belief, Vatican II did not do away with 90% of the things people claim it did. The Church is not some how broken into two pieces, pre and post Vatican II. She is the same Body of Christ with the same holy doctrine.

Pax et Bonum

Seminarian Ted
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And I thank God for it! I never said the Church suppressed it. I thank God She did not, As you have informed me. but I doubt you will ever hear it outside of A Indult parish.

There are many books out in the world. Some by Priests and Theologians who disparage anything pre 1970. It was A book like this I read many years ago, that In a subtle way said the requiem was reformed because of its emphasis on sin. And the Sequence was suppressed because of a reference to mythology. Thank God such is not the case. And I pray it gains A wider usage.

I see you are A seminarian. God Bless you!
Now I ask you this. Did you say the Quicumque? 😛
 
QUICUMQUE VULT:
Yes I am very familiar with Virgil (Particularly the georgics) And i understand the reason it is in the Dies Irae.
In pagan rome people practiced divination by opening the Aneid at random and reading the first passage they came to. Much like some Fundamentalist Christians do with the Bible, even to this day.
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Reminds me of the poor, depressed soul who opened the bible at random and placed his finger on a verse that said, “And Judas went out and hanged himself.” Thinking that was a poor choice for his current mental state, he tried again. This time, he opened the bible and placed his finger on the verse that said, “Go thou and do likewise.” :eek:
 
Dr. Bombay:
Reminds me of the poor, depressed soul who opened the bible at random and placed his finger on a verse that said, “And Judas went out and hanged himself.” Thinking that was a poor choice for his current mental state, he tried again. This time, he opened the bible and placed his finger on the verse that said, “Go thou and do likewise.” :eek:
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LOL Poor soul, Must have been A member of A caring and sharing. “Faith community” Just brimming over with justice and peace, 👍 probably all the love just finally got to him.(that or the hand holding) 😛
 
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m134e5:
The place for Sequences, when there is one for that particular day, in the Novus Ordo is right before the Alleluia. There is no church document saying that the Dies Irae may no longer be used, and something that was there before would not be dropped without a word.

Dies Irae- All Souls’ Day, Funerals, and the weekday Masses during the last week of Ordinary Time (Monday through Saturday before Christ the King). Optional

Victimae Paschali- Easter Sunday (Required), and the days of the Octave of Easter (optional)

Veni Sancte Spiritus- Pentecost (Required)

Lauda Sion- Corpus Christi (Optional)

Stabat Mater- Our Lady of Sorrows (Optional)
Click to expand...
Correct me if I am wrong but I am sure that there is no longer a Sequence on All Souls, Funerals and Weekday Masses during the Last Week of Ordinary Time in the Rubrics of the Novus Ordo. If there is I would be pleased to see the citation because I know a few liturgists and priests that would be happy to see it.
 
Where is the Dies Irae in the Liturgy of the Hours? Is it only in the four volume, or is it in Christian Prayer as well?
 
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mosher:
Correct me if I am wrong but I am sure that there is no longer a Sequence on All Souls, Funerals and Weekday Masses during the Last Week of Ordinary Time in the Rubrics of the Novus Ordo. If there is I would be pleased to see the citation because I know a few liturgists and priests that would be happy to see it.
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I do not know why it isn’t mentioned. The Easter Sequence, which is optional on the days during the Octave of Easter isn’t mentioned for those days either. No one said to stop doing the sequences on certain days- they simply don’t mention it at all. They do not mention kneeling to receive communion, but those who do are not faulted for it. They do not mention communion rails any more- parishes that have them are not faulted for it.

Why would the Dies Irae have been removed in the first place? I have yet to hear a good reason. I do not think it really matters. There is nothing wrong with it, and it is a warning about judgement day that many people need to hear. The Adoremus Hymnal includes it, and I trust the publishers at Ignatius to know the liturgy. I know of at least one very orthodox seminary that uses it, and I am sure there are parishes that do as well.
 
From the other post here I think it is pretty clear that the Dies Irae is not so much surpressed as it is just not used.

I think it is not used that often because it doesn’t reflect the present emphasis the Church’s liturgy has towards death. Today we find a greater emphasis on death and final judgment as something we should accept almost llok foreward to. The funeral Mass is almost a celebration of a life lived well and more on the mercy of God. This is not to say that the Church, abuses aside, doesn’t realize that with death comes final judgement but as followers of Christ Jesus we are suppose to be living in the hope of the Resurrection which by the melody (as moving as it is) and opening words of the Dies Irae doesn’t exactly express.
 
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m134e5:
I do not know why it isn’t mentioned. The Easter Sequence, which is optional on the days during the Octave of Easter isn’t mentioned for those days either. No one said to stop doing the sequences on certain days- they simply don’t mention it at all. They do not mention kneeling to receive communion, but those who do are not faulted for it. They do not mention communion rails any more- parishes that have them are not faulted for it.

Why would the Dies Irae have been removed in the first place? I have yet to hear a good reason. I do not think it really matters. There is nothing wrong with it, and it is a warning about judgement day that many people need to hear. The Adoremus Hymnal includes it, and I trust the publishers at Ignatius to know the liturgy. I know of at least one very orthodox seminary that uses it, and I am sure there are parishes that do as well.
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Many of the non-biblical texts were specifically removed from the Liturgy. Since there is no provision for this Sequence it should not be inserted as if it were a Sequence but it should rather be used as a hymn. The rubrics are written in such a way that would agree with this position.
 
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