Dies Irae Suppressed?

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mosher:
Many of the non-biblical texts were specifically removed from the Liturgy. Since there is no provision for this Sequence it should not be inserted as if it were a Sequence but it should rather be used as a hymn. The rubrics are written in such a way that would agree with this position.
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I have never seen anything that would say anything like that. There is no reason to remove the Dies Irae from the liturgy.
 
My “Music of the Catholic Rite” professor told the class that all but four sequences had been suppressed. These would be the four listed in m134e5’s list other than the Dies Irae. That’s only anecdotal, as she cited no particular document, but she was a generally well-versed music historian. She also told us that tropes had been forbidden, which makes me wonder every time I hear a souped-up Agnus Dei.

For those of you who know the documents better, could the idea of suppression be from the fact that only four are explicitly called for anymore?

Mosher, what in particular are you referring to in the rubrics to support your position?
 
Andreas Hofer:
Mosher, what in particular are you referring to in the rubrics to support your position?
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It is that the rubrics are silent. There is a provision in the GIRM that states that no person is to add or subtract from the rubrics unless there is a provision otherwise or permission is given through the proper authority. This is very similar to the holding hands during the Our Father. It should not be done because the rubrics do not provide for the practice just as the rubrics do not provide for the practice of the Dies Irae in the same place and role is in the traditional requiem mass.

I think that we may be looking at this the wrong way. It might be better to say that the Dies Irae was not supressed but that in the Novus Ordo it is not included when the requiem mass was written. However, it is also true to say that it can be used in the place of a hymn because it is a quasi-hymn itself.
 
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mosher:
It is that the rubrics are silent. There is a provision in the GIRM that states that no person is to add or subtract from the rubrics unless there is a provision otherwise or permission is given through the proper authority. This is very similar to the holding hands during the Our Father. It should not be done because the rubrics do not provide for the practice just as the rubrics do not provide for the practice of the Dies Irae in the same place and role is in the traditional requiem mass.

I think that we may be looking at this the wrong way. It might be better to say that the Dies Irae was not supressed but that in the Novus Ordo it is not included when the requiem mass was written. However, it is also true to say that it can be used in the place of a hymn because it is a quasi-hymn itself.
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I suspected this might be the case. Just curious.
 
I believe the priest said it on All Soul’s Day at Ave Maria where I went.

It is sad to have to go to the Univ. of Michigan’s Hill Auditorium in order to hear Mozart’s Requiem as we did in January, and not be able to have in the Mass.

After 9/11, I saw a sign on a car with obviously supporting liberal causes from the bumper stickers, advertising a prayer service in a main line Protestant church for the victims of 9/11, using the Mozart Requiem. Of course no Catholic churches were praying for them and singing this sequentia prayer! I was so sad. In fact, I saw a requiem or funeral service for some of the Washington victims broadcast and I can still remember, the song “On Eagle’s Wings” at communion!

My husband would like to have Verd’i s Requiem sung at his funeral mass.

Verdi’s ‘Dies irae’ is a real thriller. I have used it to play over neighbors’ loud pagan rock music. Since they were feminazi college girls, it really fit the bill for that moment-you know Judgement Day!
 
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m134e5:
Why would it have been removed as a sequence at all?
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There was a movement in the commission that built the liturgy to remove as many extra-biblical stuff as possible.
 
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mosher:
There was a movement in the commission that built the liturgy to remove as many extra-biblical stuff as possible.
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Why? Just because it isn’t in the bible doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a proper place in the liturgy. The sequences aren’t a substitute for the biblical readings. Why were some eliminated and not others? I see no reason- other then that it wasn’t ecumenical enough or it was too scary.
 
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m134e5:
Why? Just because it isn’t in the bible doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a proper place in the liturgy. The sequences aren’t a substitute for the biblical readings. Why were some eliminated and not others? I see no reason- other then that it wasn’t ecumenical enough or it was too scary.
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To answer that question you will have to ask Cardinal Bergnini in the here-after. I think he wrote a book explaining why he did what he did but I don’t know its title.
 
as far as I can see, the only reasons for these things- if they were suppressed at all- are to hide the things that make the Faith special- out of fear of making protestants uncomfortable.
 
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m134e5:
as far as I can see, the only reasons for these things- if they were suppressed at all- are to hide the things that make the Faith special- out of fear of making protestants uncomfortable.
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While it is well documented that many conventions in the Novus Ordo were done with eccuminism in mind I am not comfortable saying that it was the reason to trump all reasons.
 
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Leeta:
I believe the priest said it on All Soul’s Day at Ave Maria where I went.

It is sad to have to go to the Univ. of Michigan’s Hill Auditorium in order to hear Mozart’s Requiem as we did in January, and not be able to have in the Mass.

After 9/11, I saw a sign on a car with obviously supporting liberal causes from the bumper stickers, advertising a prayer service in a main line Protestant church for the victims of 9/11, using the Mozart Requiem. Of course no Catholic churches were praying for them and singing this sequentia prayer! I was so sad. In fact, I saw a requiem or funeral service for some of the Washington victims broadcast and I can still remember, the song “On Eagle’s Wings” at communion!

My husband would like to have Verd’i s Requiem sung at his funeral mass.

Verdi’s ‘Dies irae’ is a real thriller. I have used it to play over neighbors’ loud pagan rock music. Since they were feminazi college girls, it really fit the bill for that moment-you know Judgement Day!
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Oh My! It’s my assumption that having Verdi’s Requiem is a wish and not a realization. The work is several hours long and more operatic than it is sacred. The Dies Irae is indeed superb, though. Of course, most composers, such as Verdi and Mozart, split the Dies Irae up into several movements, so there could well be 45 minutes between the epistle and the gospel if you sang the whole Dies Irae in its proper place!!!

Side Note: Verdi isn’t exactly what you would call a “religious man”.

Side Note part two: Tropes have indeed been banned, but I rarely, if ever hear them sung. There is one Gregorian chant choir that I was a part of for some time where we sang troped Kyrie’s now and then.

Adam
 
Pardon my ignorance, but please explain what a “trope” is.

Thanks. :tiphat:
 
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mosher:
While it is well documented that many conventions in the Novus Ordo were done with eccuminism in mind I am not comfortable saying that it was the reason to trump all reasons.
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Maybe I am overlooking something, but I do not see any other reason. The Dies Irae makes very blunt references to things that are unique to the Catholic Faith. I know talking about how horrible the end of the world will be isn’t exactly the thing that non-catholics would expect to hear about in a funeral- but Catholics were used to it, and it would not have been a big deal had it just been left alone. Another objection I have heard is that it is too long- it only would add a few minutes to the Mass- it wouldn’t be that long. The only other objection I have heard is the reference to the Sybil- but the prayer does not exalt the Sybil- it simply states that they predicted the end of the world- there is nothing wrong with that- it was a way of illustrating to the pagans what they meant. No objection I can think of is good enough to drop it out.
 
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m134e5:
Maybe I am overlooking something, but I do not see any other reason. The Dies Irae makes very blunt references to things that are unique to the Catholic Faith. I know talking about how horrible the end of the world will be isn’t exactly the thing that non-catholics would expect to hear about in a funeral- but Catholics were used to it, and it would not have been a big deal had it just been left alone. Another objection I have heard is that it is too long- it only would add a few minutes to the Mass- it wouldn’t be that long. The only other objection I have heard is the reference to the Sybil- but the prayer does not exalt the Sybil- it simply states that they predicted the end of the world- there is nothing wrong with that- it was a way of illustrating to the pagans what they meant. No objection I can think of is good enough to drop it out.
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AMEN!!!
 
Dr. Bombay:
Dude…can’t you summarize? Must I read that whole long article?

I try not to read too much. I much prefer blissful ignorance. :cool:
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So you are accustomed to failure … 🙂
 
Dr. Bombay:
Dude…can’t you summarize? Must I read that whole long article?

I try not to read too much. I much prefer blissful ignorance. :cool:
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Keeping it simple…

It is an embellishment of the text, often poetical to expand on the meaning…

(Just read the 2nd paragraph after the numbered list…)

Joe B
 
Dr. Bombay:
Dude…can’t you summarize? Must I read that whole long article?

I try not to read too much. I much prefer blissful ignorance. :cool:
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A Trope is an interpolation in a liturgical text, or the embellishment brought about by interpolation (i.e. by introductions, insertions, or additions).
newadvent.org/cathen/15065a.htm

That’s why I consider the dominant dorm version of the Agnus Dei at Notre Dame to be a trope, long after tropes were officially suppressed:

Peace I leave with you my friends, my friends, and I am with you til the end.
Peace I leave with you my friends, my friends, and I am with you til the eeeeeend
Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on uuuuuus
Peace I leave with you my friends, my friends
Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on uuuuuus
Peace I leave with you my friends, my friends
Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, grant us
Peace I leave with you my friends, my friends, and I am with you til the end.

Notice: The actual liturgical text makes up a minority of the words in its “setting.” This in a rite that was designed to eliminate “accretions” (and actually did - supposedly - eliminate this one).
 
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