Differance Between Chaldean and Syro Malabar Qurbana?

[Catechesis]

I know they’re both of East Syriac Origin and both celebrate the Holy Qurbana of Mar Addi and Mari but why do they seem so different? If you take part in a Chaldean Qurbana and a Syro Malabar Qurbana they sound and look completely different. Would it just be a cultural difference since there located hundreds of miles apart from each other? Also even though the Chaldeans were the “original” East Syrians it seems now a days the Syro Malabar Church has taken the greater stride in removing Latinizations. I found some comparison picture through google.

View attachment 18882 View attachment 18883 View attachment 18884
View attachment 18885 View attachment 18886 View attachment 18887

 

[Thomas48]

I wish I could answer this one but I’ve never been to a Chaldean Qurbana but from my research I do beleive the structures of the Qurbana are the same the only differance is of course the language and that the Syro Malabar Church tends to use many melodies to accompany hymns. The melodies give it a whole differant sound in contrast to just vocals the Chaldeans use.

 

[MorEphrem]

As Thomas48 said (who knows better than I) they should essentially be the same other than the use of Malayalam in the Syro-Malabar liturgy. However, in terms of liturgical architecture, in place of a bema I’ve seen it common for the Syro-Malabars to use an altar (I’m unsure how this practice has developed), which the Chaldeans do not do. Furthermore, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Syro-Malabar church with a sanctuary veil whereas the see in San Diego has apparently made strives to restore the practice.

 

[malphono]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Syro-Malabar church with a sanctuary veil …

I think they do, at least in part, in Chanangassery and perhaps elsewhere. There were some pix posted a while ago in [thread=585656]this thread[/thread] and not post 13 in particular. There may other threads as well.

 

[Thomas48]

The sanctuary veil is actually pretty commom, I believe in India it is a 50/50 split but I know in the U.S about 90% of our churches are built with them. It’s not mandatory in our architecturual layout but I know now a days when new churches are built, the veil is always included. Syriac custom is much restored in our churches, I believe this is due to great strides taken by Maran Mar George Alencherry.

The picture of the Syro Malabar church above is actually a great example of restored sanctuary design, notice the altar cloth is pure Syriac design and this particular parish includes a veil aswell. Also the inclusion of the Bema, which is actually mandatory now. Even in the smaller churches where there was only an altar, the altars were pushed back against the wall of the sanctuary to make room for a Bema.

Also the use of the Mar Thoma Sliba instead of using the Crucifix in sanctuaries is a major change but one thats difficult. Alot of people just dont understand that in Syriac Christianity or atleast East Syriac, the ressurrection is what is traditionally symbolized. For example the Mar Thoma Sliba does not include the crucified body of Christ. Crosses that include the crucified body were a custom introduced with Latinization. This is one of those changes that the people of Angamli will reject, while Changanacherry, Kottayam, Thrissur and Tellicherry will support.

 

[Thomas48]

Angamli and Thrissur will reject.***

 

[MorEphrem]

Thank you for edifying me, Thomas

I’m curious to ask one thing: I was flipping through what was cataloged as a Syro-Malabar liturgy book. Part of the liturgy said there was a hoosoyo (with proemion, sedro, qolo, etro), I thought that was a West Syriac liturgical prayer format? Is it also in the East Syriac Churches? What of the Chaldeans, as I was reading a 19th century translation of the Assyrian offices and instead of the Maronite office structure that has prayers and a hoosoyo it had “anthems.”

 

[Thomas48]

Thank you for edifying me, Thomas

I’m curious to ask one thing: I was flipping through what was cataloged as a Syro-Malabar liturgy book. Part of the liturgy said there was a hoosoyo (with proemion, sedro, qolo, etro), I thought that was a West Syriac liturgical prayer format? Is it also in the East Syriac Churches? What of the Chaldeans, as I was reading a 19th century translation of the Assyrian offices and instead of the Maronite office structure that has prayers and a hoosoyo it had “anthems.”

I’m not quite sure, I’ll look into this.

 

[malphono]

Thank you for edifying me, Thomas

I’m curious to ask one thing: I was flipping through what was cataloged as a Syro-Malabar liturgy book. Part of the liturgy said there was a hoosoyo (with proemion, sedro, qolo, etro), I thought that was a West Syriac liturgical prayer format? Is it also in the East Syriac Churches? What of the Chaldeans, as I was reading a 19th century translation of the Assyrian offices and instead of the Maronite office structure that has prayers and a hoosoyo it had “anthems.”

I’m not quite sure, I’ll look into this.

I’m curious too. From what I’ve seen, even Changangassery doesn’t do it. And that makes sense considering that the Chaldean hudra doesn’t seem to reference it, nor does the Chaldean qourbana either. Maybe our elusive brother ronyodish can elucidate a little more from that perspective? Rony? Are you listening?

 

[ronyodish]

I’m curious to ask one thing: I was flipping through what was cataloged as a Syro-Malabar liturgy book. Part of the liturgy said there was a hoosoyo (with proemion, sedro, qolo, etro), I thought that was a West Syriac liturgical prayer format? Is it also in the East Syriac Churches? What of the Chaldeans, as I was reading a 19th century translation of the Assyrian offices and instead of the Maronite office structure that has prayers and a hoosoyo it had “anthems.”

MorEphrem,

Do you know if there is an online copy of this Syro-Malabar liturgy book, which references the hoosoyo? I would love to read what this book is referring to, because my understanding is that the hoosoyo is a unique feature of the West Syriac liturgy. Perhaps the Syro-Malabar book was referring to the service of absolution known among the Chaldeans as the Teshmeshta dHoosaya?

Assyrian/Chaldean liturgy does have its “anthems”.

Maybe our elusive brother ronyodish can elucidate a little more from that perspective? Rony? Are you listening?

Sure, I try to keep up with this forum as much as possible…

God bless,

Rony

 

[MorEphrem]

MorEphrem,

Do you know if there is an online copy of this Syro-Malabar liturgy book, which references the hoosoyo? I would love to read what this book is referring to, because my understanding is that the hoosoyo is a unique feature of the West Syriac liturgy. Perhaps the Syro-Malabar book was referring to the service of absolution known among the Chaldeans as the Teshmeshta dHoosaya?

I’m a bit disappointed, actually, since I returned the book to the library and am now unable to find it via a search but I’m 90% sure it was called something to the effect of “The liturgy of the Syrian Malabar Church.” It might’ve been “The eucharist service of the Syrian Jacobite Church of Malabar : the meaning and the interpretation” but I’m unsure. In any case, it definitely had something called the Hoosoyo with Proemion, Sedro, “Kolo” and Etro sections (I found it strange that things were in West Syriac pronunciation ).

 

[ronyodish]

I’m a bit disappointed, actually, since I returned the book to the library and am now unable to find it via a search but I’m 90% sure it was called something to the effect of “The liturgy of the Syrian Malabar Church.” It might’ve been “The eucharist service of the Syrian Jacobite Church of Malabar : the meaning and the interpretation” but I’m unsure. In any case, it definitely had something called the Hoosoyo with Proemion, Sedro, “Kolo” and Etro sections (I found it strange that things were in West Syriac pronunciation ).

Ah, ok, I think the book was most likely a reference to a West Syriac church and liturgy, even though it used the term Malabar in it’s title. This is especially the case if the term Jacobite was also used.

God bless,

Rony

 

[malphono]

I’m a bit disappointed, actually, since I returned the book to the library and am now unable to find it via a search but I’m 90% sure it was called something to the effect of “The liturgy of the Syrian Malabar Church.” It might’ve been “The eucharist service of the Syrian Jacobite Church of Malabar : the meaning and the interpretation” but I’m unsure. In any case, it definitely had something called the Hoosoyo with Proemion, Sedro, “Kolo” and Etro sections (I found it strange that things were in West Syriac pronunciation ).

Ah, ok, I think the book was most likely a reference to a West Syriac church and liturgy, even though it used the term Malabar in it’s title. This is especially the case if the term Jacobite was also used.

Yes, it was probably a misnomer on the part of the author. IIRC, it was somewhat common, in the 19th Century particularly, for the term “Malabar” to be used loosely, mainly by Western authors. I suppose that has to do with the geographical usage of the term. Over time, the West Syriac branches eventually “won their freedom” so-to-speak, and ultimately were able to disassociate themselves from the general use of “Malabar” despite the geographical relation.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I have that title. It is definitely referring to the Liturgy shared by the Syriac Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox, Syro-Malankara Catholics; not the Liturgy of the Chaldeans or Syro-Malabar.

Geographically, historically speaking, the terms Malabar and Malankara overlap. The strict interpretation is that Malabar is the Northern side and Malankara the lower former kingdoms of Travancore-Cochin-Trivandrum. Ecclesiologically, they overlap a lot.