Difference between CCC 1832 & Galatians 5:22-23 (about Modesty as The Fruit of The Spirit)

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CCC 1832 refers to Galatians 5:22-23

1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections that the Holy Spirit forms in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: "charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity."112​

112 Gal 5:22-23 (Vulg.).

scboromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm

But both of my catholic bibles only list NINE-FRUITS of The Spirit.
The above CCC lists TWELVE-FRUITS of the Spirit.

The difference are: generousity, MODESTY, and chastity. These three aren’t listed as “The Fruits of The Spirit” in Galatians 5:22-23.

Galatians 5
22. But the fruit of the Spirit is charity, joy and peace, patience, understanding of others, kindness and fidelity,
23. gentleness and self-control. For such things there is no Law or punishment.

My question is, from which reference that CCC include the other three as “The Fruits of the Spirit” (from which teaching) ?

If CCC has other reference besides Gal 5:22-23 regarding this, shouldn’t it be listed?

Thanks
 
The Bible is not the only source for Church teaching–never has been. It doesn’t have to “match” a particular verse. Modesty and the other friuts not listed are just as much of the Holy Spirit as the ones St. Paul cited, are they not?

As to whether or not the CCC should have given a biblical reference for the three “missing” fruits is something you’d have to take up with its editors. 😉
 
My guess is that generosity stems from goodness, and modesty and chastity stem from self-control. Though, I am not certain. As Della mentioned, it is the Sacred Tradition, as well as Scripture, that are our source for Truth.
 
francisca said:
CCC 1832 refers to Galatians 5:22-23

1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections that the Holy Spirit forms in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: "charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity."112​

112 Gal 5:22-23 (Vulg.).

scboromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm

But both of my catholic bibles only list NINE-FRUITS of The Spirit.
The above CCC lists TWELVE-FRUITS of the Spirit.

The difference are: generousity, MODESTY, and chastity. These three aren’t listed as “The Fruits of The Spirit” in Galatians 5:22-23.

Galatians 5
22. But the fruit of the Spirit is charity, joy and peace, patience, understanding of others, kindness and fidelity,
23. gentleness and self-control. For such things there is no Law or punishment.

My question is, from which reference that CCC include the other three as “The Fruits of the Spirit” (from which teaching) ?

If CCC has other reference besides Gal 5:22-23 regarding this, shouldn’t it be listed?

Thanks
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How about from Our Lord Jesus…he was generous…lived a life of chastity…and was modest in all aspects of his life…especially in not using his Divine nature to accomplish the Father’s will…he put all of the faith and trust of his human nature in the hands of his Father.
Philippians 2: 5-8 American Standard Version (ASV)
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5 Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
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6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
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7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;
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8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.
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For your consideration.
Pax Christi
 
Apparently the Latin vulgate lists 12 fruits of the spirit, although many modern bibles list only 9. It seems it must be to do with bible translations + which manuscripts/sources they use. I’m not too sure how it works, that’s just the explanation I found doing a websearch.
 
It would seem to me that Paul is referring to the “fruit” of the Holy Spirit… not giving a exhaustive list of all the fruits of the Holy Spirit. The CCC is giving the classical catechetical list of the 12 fruits.
 
[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 5:22-23[/BIBLEDRB]

I count 12 in the Douay-Rheims (a translation from the Vulgate).

The footnotes of any modern translation will mention words or verses that are present in some manuscripts and absent in others. This is because for over a thousand years the Bible was copied by hand.

One of the more famous examples of this phenomenon is the addition of “For Thine is the Kingdom…” to the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew’s Gospel.
 
francisca said:
CCC 1832 refers to Galatians 5:22-23

1832 The fruits of the Spirit are perfections that the Holy Spirit forms in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: "charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity."112​

112 Gal 5:22-23 (Vulg.).

scboromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm

But both of my catholic bibles only list NINE-FRUITS of The Spirit.
The above CCC lists TWELVE-FRUITS of the Spirit.

The difference are: generousity, MODESTY, and chastity. These three aren’t listed as “The Fruits of The Spirit” in Galatians 5:22-23.

Galatians 5
22. But the fruit of the Spirit is charity, joy and peace, patience, understanding of others, kindness and fidelity,
23. gentleness and self-control. For such things there is no Law or punishment.

My question is, from which reference that CCC include the other three as “The Fruits of the Spirit” (from which teaching) ?

If CCC has other reference besides Gal 5:22-23 regarding this, shouldn’t it be listed?

Thanks
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As always refer back to the Latin, the Vulgate lists 12.
 
SonCatcher said:
[bibledrb]Galatians 5:22-23[/bibledrb]

I count 12 in the Douay-Rheims (a translation from the Vulgate).

The footnotes of any modern translation will mention words or verses that are present in some manuscripts and absent in others. This is because for over a thousand years the Bible was copied by hand.

One of the more famous examples of this phenomenon is the addition of “For Thine is the Kingdom…” to the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew’s Gospel.
Click to expand...
I think that 12 is preferred because 12 is the number of heavenly perfection in the bible - 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles…

My old Baltimore Catechism gives 12.
 
SonCatcher said:
The footnotes of any modern translation will mention words or verses that are present in some manuscripts and absent in others. This is because for over a thousand years the Bible was copied by hand.

One of the more famous examples of this phenomenon is the addition of “For Thine is the Kingdom…” to the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew’s Gospel.
Click to expand...
 
Thankyou all for your response.

I am taking all of your answers as possibility. I am not sure if I can accept only Vulgate as the source of reference. I know that the catholic church at some point of time promulgated it as the sole reference of the bible. Nevertheless nowadays we know more that Vulgate has its own weaknesses, no translation is perfect.

I am no scholar, so I should not argue with those who are experts in those area of history, languages, old manuscirpts, and so on. I would be happy if somebody who know more can explain from those perspective.

Having said that, I know that I am a bible reader, and I do have some understanding of the overall bible teaching. I often ponder and meditate on verses of the bible, and ask God to give me understanding. I have difficulty with some CCC, and 1832 is one of them.

I don’t want to discuss “chastity” because it will take the whole thread on its own. Moreover, I assume 🤷, that “chastity” is part of “self-control” which is one of the nine-fruits of the spirit.

**My difficulty is with “generosity” and "modesty. In Gal 5:23, st Paul cathegorize the fruits of the spirit as “for such there is NO law and purnishment”.

I can understand that love (charity), joy and peace, patience, understanding of others, kindness and fidelity are “of NO law and punishment”. We practice these nine from our hearts, not because some rules (law), neither they condemns others in their practice.

My difficulty is with “generosity” and “modesty” being free of law and punishments.**

We all know that I can be generous to somebody because I want something in return. One do not need the spirit in order to be generous. Even if I were to be generous out of my heart, somebody else may get difficulty because he can’t be as generous as I can because he is poor and I am rich, for example in social conduct such as giving gifts, giving tips, and so on.

In a similar way is modesty. Modesty is a kind of law on its own, and it condemns others in its practice. For example if I always wear something modest all the time, in my doing so (out of my good heart), it can be used to condemn others who can’t do it as well as I do. In the sameway with generosity, one doesn’t need to be “full of spirit” in order to choose modest dresses.

The epistle to the Galatians, in particular, talks about NOT being saved by the law.
 
francisca said:
Thankyou all for your response.

I can understand that love (charity), joy and peace, patience, understanding of others, kindness and fidelity are “of NO law and punishment”. We practice these nine from our hearts, not because some rules (law), neither they condemns others in their practice.

My difficulty is with “generosity” and “modesty” being free of law and punishments.
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The epistle to the Galatians, in particular, talks about NOT being saved by the law.

Paying for reward is buying fame, benefit, or station. That is not generosity.
It is like saying punching children makes a sadist happy and that is joy.

NOPE to both. Sin is an archery term meaning to miss the mark. There are lots of almost good things that are not good at all. Generosity for gain is by definition not generosity. You cannot be generous for gain. You cannot talk joy is misery. The fruits are not compatible. But, you can give for gain. You can enjoy cruelty.

I hope this addresses the second part of your question. Other have mentioned “go to the Latin” for the 12.
 
 
The** New Latin Vulgate** issued by (Bl) Pope John Paul II also has only the nine we see in say the RSV.
 
Joseph_LaMothe said:
Generosity for gain is by definition not generosity. You cannot be generous for gain. You cannot talk joy is misery. The fruits are not compatible. But, you can give for gain. You can enjoy cruelty.
.quote]

Your analogy about a sadist punching a child as joy is not really joy, while I am refering to people who are really generous in sharing their possession and really modest in their dresses. These people despite their good intention, their practice of generosity and modesty may still causing some negative consequences towards others.

Even if I give generously out of my innocent heart, I may still get some privilliges which others do not , eventhough I don’t really want it in my heart. Something like this do not happen with the “nine-fruits of the spirit”. For example if I am in joy and peace, I do not causes others to suffer, and I do need the spirit in order to have joy and peace in my heart. I don’t always need the spirit in order to be generous.

I am aware of Jesus teaching “If one asks for your robe, give him your cloak as well. If one asks you to walk with him for one mile, walk two miles” However, in other place, Jesus condemn a pharisee who gave a lot of money (generously) as offering, and praise the widow who gave a little. The widow tried to hide her little coin before she put it in the offering place, because the rich makes the poor feel inferior of their offering, ie “the shallow generousity causes some negative consequences”.

I think Jesus teaching about “the robe and the cloak” is about KINDNESS, the deeper meaning of generousity, which has been covered by one of the NINE-fruits of the Spirit. Thus a deeper meaning of generousity is actually in the context of KINDNESS.

In the same way is the shallow teaching of modesty condemns those who can’t dress modestly. This is similar to the pharisees behavior in Jesus time. The real modesty must include “UNDERSTANDING OF OTHERS” which is one of the NINE-fruits of the Spirit.
I hope this addresses the second part of your question. Other have mentioned “go to the Latin” for the 12.
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Joseph_LaMothe said:
Paying for reward is buying fame, benefit, or station. That is not generosity.
It is like saying punching children makes a sadist happy and that is joy.

NOPE to both. Sin is an archery term meaning to miss the mark. There are lots of almost good things that are not good at all. Generosity for gain is by definition not generosity. You cannot be generous for gain. You cannot talk joy is misery. The fruits are not compatible. But, you can give for gain. You can enjoy cruelty.
Click to expand...
Joseph_LaMothe said:
Generosity for gain is by definition not generosity. You cannot be generous for gain. You cannot talk joy is misery. The fruits are not compatible. But, you can give for gain. You can enjoy cruelty.
.quote]

Your analogy about a sadist punching a child as joy is not really joy, while I am refering to people who are really generous in sharing their possession and really modest in their dresses. These people despite their good intention, their practice of generosity and modesty may still causing some negative consequences towards others.

Even if I give generously out of my innocent heart, I may still get some privilliges which others do not , eventhough I don’t really want it in my heart. Something like this do not happen with the “nine-fruits of the spirit”. For example if I am in joy and peace, I do not causes others to suffer, and I do need the spirit in order to have joy and peace in my heart. I don’t always need the spirit in order to be generous.

I am aware of Jesus teaching “If one asks for your robe, give him your cloak as well. If one asks you to walk with him for one mile, walk two miles” However, in other place, Jesus condemn a pharisee who gave a lot of money (generously) as offering, and praise the widow who gave a little. The widow tried to hide her little coin before she put it in the offering place, because the rich makes the poor feel inferior of their offering, ie “the shallow generousity causes some negative consequences”.

I think Jesus teaching about “the robe and the cloak” is about KINDNESS, the deeper meaning of generousity, which has been covered by one of the NINE-fruits of the Spirit. Thus a deeper meaning of generousity is actually in the context of KINDNESS.

In the same way is the shallow teaching of modesty condemns those who can’t dress modestly. This is similar to the pharisees behavior in Jesus time. The real modesty must include “UNDERSTANDING OF OTHERS” which is one of the NINE-fruits of the Spirit.
I hope this addresses the second part of your question. Other have mentioned “go to the Latin” for the 12.
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Actually, all of the fruits can be acted upon from the prompting of the Holy Spirit or mere natural impluse. What St. Paul is talking about is the supernatural prompting of the Holy Spirit not mere human virtue. If we read it from that understanding, it makes more sense and brings all the fruits into line with what St. Paul is saying about doing these things through the Holy Spirit nor merely to fulfill an obligation/or from mere human desire.
 
francisca said:
I don’t want to discuss “chastity” because it will take the whole thread on its own. Moreover, I assume 🤷, that “chastity” is part of “self-control” which is one of the nine-fruits of the spirit.
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There are nuances in various languages where it becomes necessary to be more verbose in one language than another to capture the full meaning. This may be one of those.
francisca said:
We all know that I can be generous to somebody because I want something in return. One do not need the spirit in order to be generous. Even if I were to be generous out of my heart, somebody else may get difficulty because he can’t be as generous as I can because he is poor and I am rich, for example in social conduct such as giving gifts, giving tips, and so on.
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  1. *]Any expectation of return is not generosity.
    *]One does not “need” the Spirit for any of these fruits. However, if one has the Spirit, it will show by the presence of all these fruits.
    *]The risk of envy should not prevent one from being generous. However, one should not flaunt his generosity as that would be immodest (recall the Widow’s Mite)
    francisca said:
    In a similar way is modesty. Modesty is a kind of law on its own, and it condemns others in its practice. For example if I always wear something modest all the time, in my doing so (out of my good heart), it can be used to condemn others who can’t do it as well as I do. In the sameway with generosity, one doesn’t need to be “full of spirit” in order to choose modest dresses.
    Click to expand...
    Modesty is not merely about style of dress. It is in not calling attention to yourself. Any “modesty” that envelops a condemnation of others is by definition immodest.
 
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