Difference between Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestant

[ltwin]

Really great post Cat. I couldn’t have put it nearly so succinctly. I myself was a Baptist for 27 years and can verify that what is say is right on the money.

One other difference you do not mention is that Fundamentalists tend to be Calvinists. Many of them 5-pointers. Evangelicals, although they are often Calvinists too, are likely to be 3-4 pointers, or less.

And then there are tons of evangelicals that are only 1 point Calvinists.

 

[fallow_spirit]

Really great post Cat. I couldn’t have put it nearly so succinctly. I myself was a Baptist for 27 years and can verify that what is say is right on the money.

One other difference you do not mention is that Fundamentalists tend to be Calvinists. Many of them 5-pointers. Evangelicals, although they are often Calvinists too, are likely to be 3-4 pointers, or less.

Yes they do tend to be Calvinists. Our pastor is 4 point, still believes in universal redemption. I don’t see how that works inside the constraints of Calvinism but someone they manage to force the piece to fit, even if the puzzle breaks in the process.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Yes they do tend to be Calvinists. Our pastor is 4 point, still believes in universal redemption. I don’t see how that works inside the constraints of Calvinism but someone they manage to force the piece to fit, even if the puzzle breaks in the process.

As R. C. Sproul jokingly quipped…“4 point Calvinists. Also known as Arminians.”

 

[fallow_spirit]

As R. C. Sproul jokingly quipped…“4 point Calvinists. Also known as Arminians.”

Yes, I believe that many of these evangelical Calvinists types just get caught up in all the ‘Sovereignty of God, if you believe in free will then you’re saying God is weak and stealing His glory’ rhetoric and don’t really bother to examine the issues very carefully. At least that’s how it is for our pastor and many in our current congregation. Our pastor constantly is bringing up how superior Calvinism is to other Christian philosophical constraints but then like I said, believes in universal atonement. Bit of problem if you ask me.

 

[WildCatholic]

Folk singer John Fisher has written some wonderful books (Real Christians Dance,etc.) in which he strongly denounces the practice that he calls “fortressing,” in which Evangelical Protestants build “fortresses” in which they hide themselves away from the world and create their own culture, rather than going OUT into the world and influencing the culture for the good. I personally think that some “traditionalist-leaning” Catholics are in danger of “fortressing”–JMO, but I have noticed a trend in these Catholic Christians to avoid all other Christians and to create their own very safe world. Can’t say I blame either Evangelical Protestants or Catholics for doing this–it IS hard to go out into the world and see others practicing blatant sin, especially when your children are also exposed to this blatant sin.

But we shouldn’t separate ourselves from other CHRISTIANS while we are attempting to avoid sin, and that’s what Fundamentalist Protestants generally tend to do–separate.

I kind of wonder if a lot of trads do this myself. Don’t get me wrong, many trads are very open and out in the world, but there seems to be an undercurrent of those that don’t want anything to do with other faiths, other christians, even other catholics. I’m sure they are the minority though, at least with those trads who are fully part of the church.

 

[WildCatholic]

The fundamentalist movement began in the early part of the 20th century as a reaction against the growing liberalism in mainline denominations. The early fundamentalist conferances included almost every Protestant denomination.
Fundamentalism exists in the fog of a false history (which is why they discourage educated inquiry) and ‘separation’. They believe they are ‘Bible based’ and all other denominations reject the Bible and salvation.
The CC, they believe is ‘anti-Bible’. When one looks at the world from this point of view, it is difficult to break through it. ‘Separation’ keeps them from a wider world and in fear. They are convinced of their rightness and your wrongness and they will do whatever they can to break your will.

There are three basic types of fundamentalist baptists:

1. The Jerry Falwel, Liberty University variety.
I attended LU and can safely say they are the most reasonable kind (that may shock some people). They would fit into the " ‘New Evangelicals’ Billy Graham, Charles Colson, James Dobson" types you mention. Hard-core fundamentalists do not consider them to be fundamentalists (for a variety of reasons I will not bore you with explaining, not the least of which is that they (GASP) use modern english versions of the Bible.

2. The Bob Jones University variety.
They range from Calvinist to Arminian in theology. They tend to be more intellectual, but very elitist and racist. Their numbers are dwindling however, Two pastors I sat under were from BJU.

3. The Hyles-Anderson College, KJV-only variety.
These are the wide-eyed fanatics. These are the haters. Very anti-intellectual, cultic, abrasive, paranoid…I could go on, but you get the picture. The third group I have encountered, even preached in a few of their churches, but I avoided them.

All three Falwell, Jones, and Hyles are gone now. But their legacy continues. All three are little islands to themselves. They put up walls so no opposite POV comes in.
Defeating the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist sect (cult would be a better word) can only be done on an individual basis, and only when the Holy Spirit directs the path for the individual.
Fortuntely, IFBs are a dying breed. The number of people in thier churches rarely are in the triple digets. Most are a small handful of people.
The reason why is obvious: thier doctrine of separation. They separate, not just from all those ‘apostate denominations’, but from each other as well. This is where the word “evangelical” comes in. There is no denomination called “evangelical”, like "fundamentalist:, its a descrption. They are made up of many denominations and are considered “liberal” to hard-core fundamentalists. They “separate” from them in thier endless pursuit of purity.
When one is born of division, all that can be produced is more division. Fundamentalists will continue to ‘separate’ and divide until they are no more.

I like the way you describe it. In my opinion i feel that the difference between evangelicals and fundamentalists is openness. The true fundamentalists are the types to me who don’t associate with other groups. Also (granted this doesn’t mean anything) but I’ve noticed that on wednesdays and sundays that those who I assume are fundies are the ones who are SUPER dressed up for church with the slick hair and women in long skirts and while nice, don’t seem to be super social with others. I see them at the grocery store I work at Also, i don’t know if this is a distinction, but i get the feelings fundamentalists only listen to Gospel music type radio, and aren’t really into Christian Contemporary music or Christian Rock. Most would find it repulsive or so i think.

 

[LiberalPrincess]

I hold evangelicals to be “Orthodox Protestants” if that makes sense (distinguished from more liberal Mainline Protestants). To give an analogy from Catholicism, evangelicals would be traditionalist Catholics, while Mainline Protestants would be Progressive Catholics.)

I dont think Fundamentalists would be considered evangelicals since fundamentalists have a policy of withdrawing from society and tend to be EXTREMELY legalistic.

 

[ltwin]

I hold evangelicals to be “Orthodox Protestants” if that makes sense (distinguished from more liberal Mainline Protestants). To give an analogy from Catholicism, evangelicals would be traditionalist Catholics, while Mainline Protestants would be Progressive Catholics.)

It depends how how you are defining “traditionalist.” Are you speaking in moral terms or in terms of practice?

The funny thing about Protestantism is that today, some of the most “progressive” and liberal Protestants are also the most traditional when it comes to liturgy. At the same time, some of the more morally traditional Protestants are the most progressive when it comes to worship styles.

I dont think Fundamentalists would be considered evangelicals since fundamentalists have a policy of withdrawing from society and tend to be EXTREMELY legalistic.

Fundamentalists “separate” from society. Evangelicals “engage” with society.

Also, Fundamentalists tend to have roots deep in Calvinist thinking, whereas Evangelicals as a whole can be much more diverse.

 

[BeProfOSX]

Fundamentalists “separate” from society. Evangelicals “engage” with society.

Also, Fundamentalists tend to have roots deep in Calvinist thinking, whereas Evangelicals as a whole can be much more diverse.

A couple of notes from a insider, formerly Fundamentalist, now Evangelical…

Evangelicals believe in separation, too (even though most would never say that), but the difference is that Fundamentalists practice what I call “second order” separation while Evangelicals only practice “primary” separation.

What do I mean by that? Well… Neither an Evangelical nor a Fundamentalist group would really feel comfortable associating with a Liberal (theologically speaking) Mainline Protestant group like the United Church of Christ or the United Methodist Church or even the National Council of Churches. An Evangelical group, however, would have very little difficulty allowing a particular UCC or UM church that happens to find itself in agreement with the Evangelical bona fides; but, a Fundamentalist group would refuse, typically, to associate with one of those groups unless that group first disassociated itself with it’s liberal parent denomination.

A true to life example from my own area may be illustrative: A particular United Methodist church in my area happens to be pretty faithful to historical, protestant orthodoxy. Indeed, they are downright evangelical, even though they remain a member of a liberal denomination. The evangelical Alliance church that I used to be a member of had zero problem having shared prayer services and even participating in a kind of semi-integrated youth group that this particular UM church was hosting for other evangelical and more orthodox minded mainline churches in the area.

The one church that didn’t participate, however, was the local Independent Fundamental Baptist church. They used to participate with us on lots of things: We used to have shared baptismal services and revival services and so on, but the instant we associated ourselves with the UM church, they disassociated themselves with us. They did this not because they thought we were being “led astray” by the UM church. They understood full well that this UM church was “one of the good ones.” They did this because they were concerned that others might see that we had associated ourselves with a UM church and thus think that we were endorsing the United Methodist denomination as a whole.

Another example: An Evangelical will read and even quote N.T. Wright from the pulpit because, while there are some issues we don’t agree with him on, he’s more or less a staunch defender of what Catholics and traditionalist Protestants would both agree upon as the essential historical truths of the Christian Faith: the Deity of Christ, The Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, and so on. A Fundamentalist would never do that because N.T. Wright doesn’t hold to the same narrowly defined definition of Biblical Inspiration and Inerrancy that we do. Even if Wright did hold to that very high view of Scripture, a Fundamentalist still wouldn’t read or quote him because he is a member of the Anglican Communion and so is John Shelby Spong, and if the Anglican Communion won’t excommunicate Spong, then anything that any Anglican says is immediately suspect.

To put it yet another way: A Fundamentalists believes and acts according to the principle that if a group is apostate, then all the members of that group are apostate and we are to have nothing to do with them. An Evangelical recognizes that a group may be apostate, but an individual may still be faithful and we will gladly associate ourselves with anyone who is faithful and try not to judge them for remaining in an apostate group. A Fundamentalist recognizes that one bad apple spoils the whole bowl while Evangelicals believe that every apple needs to be evaluated on its own merits.

In terms of Theology, I’ve never noticed a decided bent within Fundamentalism towards Calvinism. I can assure you that Calvinists were decided minority of my classmates at Bob Jones University, but the Calvinists that were there tended to be really, extraordinarily serious Calvinists, so that may be where the perception comes from. Yes, most of us (almost all of us) believed in Eternal Security (“Once Saved, Always Saved”) but the vast majority of Fundamentalists and Evangelicals believe in that and Eternal Security alone does not a Calvinist make.

If there are any solid theological distinctions that I can make, beyond the practice of Separation above, it would be these:

1 - Fundamentalists tend to be Baptists. Yes, there are Fundamentalists among the Methodists and Presbyterians and Lutherans, and believe it or not, Bob Jones his own self was a dyed in the wool, baby baptizing Methodist, and Bob Jones University to this day remains committed to a “generic” Fundamentalism that allows for such things; but, the vast majority of the students and faculty there are Independent Fundamental Baptists.

2 - Fundamentalists tend to be Dispensationalists. And I mean “Dispensationalist” not “Dispensationalist in their Eschatology and nothing else.” I mean full-on, hard-core, seven dispensations, the OT saints were saved by works and not by faith Dispensationalists. Even inside of Evangelicalism, most people don’t realize that Dispensationalism is about a heck of a lot more than just the timing of the Rapture. Fundamentalists do and they typically have really strong opinions about it, or at least they did in the IFB churches I went to and within the Religion Department at BJU.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

as an evangelical I can safely say I agree with all the posts above about the difference between fundamentalist and evangelical. I consider Catholics as fellow Christians. But I know several people that do not think Catholics can be Christians. Oh well. They have a distorted view.

 

[JustaServant]

A couple of notes from a insider, formerly Fundamentalist, now Evangelical…

Evangelicals believe in separation, too (even though most would never say that), but the difference is that Fundamentalists practice what I call “second order” separation while Evangelicals only practice “primary” separation.

What do I mean by that? Well… Neither an Evangelical nor a Fundamentalist group would really feel comfortable associating with a Liberal (theologically speaking) Mainline Protestant group like the United Church of Christ or the United Methodist Church or even the National Council of Churches. An Evangelical group, however, would have very little difficulty allowing a particular UCC or UM church that happens to find itself in agreement with the Evangelical bona fides; but, a Fundamentalist group would refuse, typically, to associate with one of those groups unless that group first disassociated itself with it’s liberal parent denomination.

A true to life example from my own area may be illustrative: A particular United Methodist church in my area happens to be pretty faithful to historical, protestant orthodoxy. Indeed, they are downright evangelical, even though they remain a member of a liberal denomination. The evangelical Alliance church that I used to be a member of had zero problem having shared prayer services and even participating in a kind of semi-integrated youth group that this particular UM church was hosting for other evangelical and more orthodox minded mainline churches in the area.

The one church that didn’t participate, however, was the local Independent Fundamental Baptist church. They used to participate with us on lots of things: We used to have shared baptismal services and revival services and so on, but the instant we associated ourselves with the UM church, they disassociated themselves with us. They did this not because they thought we were being “led astray” by the UM church. They understood full well that this UM church was “one of the good ones.” They did this because they were concerned that others might see that we had associated ourselves with a UM church and thus think that we were endorsing the United Methodist denomination as a whole.

Another example: An Evangelical will read and even quote N.T. Wright from the pulpit because, while there are some issues we don’t agree with him on, he’s more or less a staunch defender of what Catholics and traditionalist Protestants would both agree upon as the essential historical truths of the Christian Faith: the Deity of Christ, The Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, and so on. A Fundamentalist would never do that because N.T. Wright doesn’t hold to the same narrowly defined definition of Biblical Inspiration and Inerrancy that we do. Even if Wright did hold to that very high view of Scripture, a Fundamentalist still wouldn’t read or quote him because he is a member of the Anglican Communion and so is John Shelby Spong, and if the Anglican Communion won’t excommunicate Spong, then anything that any Anglican says is immediately suspect.

To put it yet another way: A Fundamentalists believes and acts according to the principle that if a group is apostate, then all the members of that group are apostate and we are to have nothing to do with them. An Evangelical recognizes that a group may be apostate, but an individual may still be faithful and we will gladly associate ourselves with anyone who is faithful and try not to judge them for remaining in an apostate group. A Fundamentalist recognizes that one bad apple spoils the whole bowl while Evangelicals believe that every apple needs to be evaluated on its own merits.

In terms of Theology, I’ve never noticed a decided bent within Fundamentalism towards Calvinism. I can assure you that Calvinists were decided minority of my classmates at Bob Jones University, but the Calvinists that were there tended to be really, extraordinarily serious Calvinists, so that may be where the perception comes from. Yes, most of us (almost all of us) believed in Eternal Security (“Once Saved, Always Saved”) but the vast majority of Fundamentalists and Evangelicals believe in that and Eternal Security alone does not a Calvinist make.

If there are any solid theological distinctions that I can make, beyond the practice of Separation above, it would be these:

1 - Fundamentalists tend to be Baptists. Yes, there are Fundamentalists among the Methodists and Presbyterians and Lutherans, and believe it or not, Bob Jones his own self was a dyed in the wool, baby baptizing Methodist, and Bob Jones University to this day remains committed to a “generic” Fundamentalism that allows for such things; but, the vast majority of the students and faculty there are Independent Fundamental Baptists.

2 - Fundamentalists tend to be Dispensationalists. And I mean “Dispensationalist” not “Dispensationalist in their Eschatology and nothing else.” I mean full-on, hard-core, seven dispensations, the OT saints were saved by works and not by faith Dispensationalists. Even inside of Evangelicalism, most people don’t realize that Dispensationalism is about a heck of a lot more than just the timing of the Rapture. Fundamentalists do and they typically have really strong opinions about it, or at least they did in the IFB churches I went to and within the Religion Department at BJU.

Glad to hear you escaped.
Even though I went to Liberty University, I sat under two preachers from BJU.
Here’s an interesting website for people who have escaped the kind of fundamenalism you describe.
stufffundieslike.com/forum/

 

[ltwin]

A couple of notes from a insider, formerly Fundamentalist, now Evangelical…

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. Comeoutism is still a very strong impulse among Fundamentalists. Evangelicals tend to have an understated ecumenicalism (as opposed to the often overstated mainline Protestant ecumenical efforts).

In terms of Theology, I’ve never noticed a decided bent within Fundamentalism towards Calvinism. I can assure you that Calvinists were decided minority of my classmates at Bob Jones University, but the Calvinists that were there tended to be really, extraordinarily serious Calvinists, so that may be where the perception comes from. Yes, most of us (almost all of us) believed in Eternal Security (“Once Saved, Always Saved”) but the vast majority of Fundamentalists and Evangelicals believe in that and Eternal Security alone does not a Calvinist make.

I’d take issue with saying that “the vast majority” believe in OSAS. That certainly is not true in my experience where it was hammered into me that salvation can indeed be lost. Most Pentecostals are taught that and Pentecostals certainly aren’t a minority. In fact, that’s one of the ways we distinguish ourselves from the Baptists!

You’re probably right about modern day Fundamentalists not really being Calvinists. But historically, the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy began in the Presbyterian Church and many of the first Fundamentalist leaders were Calvinists.

 

[BeProfOSX]

Even though I went to Liberty University

So did I!

I only lasted a year at BJU. I went there right out of public school after only having “been saved” for six months or so. It was a bit of a culture shock for me, to say the least, especially as a “Preacher Boy” (the term that tended to get applied to ministry majors.) The first shock came when I got looked at suspiciously by my RA for having C.S. Lewis books and it was all down hill from there.

I went to Liberty after that for a couple of years and it was a very valuable “decompression” experience for me. We had a few ex-BoJos there as well in my day, and I suspect we’re talking about the same ones (even if their names escape me right now).

Ironically, I now work in the fine arts department of a major secular university and our Dean, of all people, is a BJU alum. She’s an honest, committed Christian surrounded by the kind of professional “angry lefties” that one can really only find in a big secular fine arts department but she manages to thread that needle, and remain true to herself as a Christian and as an artist while allowing other to do the same like no-one I’ve ever met before. I’ve learned a lot from her.

Anyways… One the Pentecostal-OSAS thing… yeah… traditional Pentecostalism is the big, big exception to that rule; but, I don’t consider Pentecostals to be Fundamentalists, although they certainly are Evangelicals, for two reasons:

1 - The Pentecostal movement in general and especially Pentecostal Holiness predates Fundamentalism by a good bit. There was certainly some cross pollination but Pentecostalism and Fundamentalism remained distinct separate movements at least until the 1960s and 70s when the Jesus People movement took off as part of what was then called “Neo-Evangelicalism.”

Other denominations that fall into this “Evangelical but never Fundamentalist” category would be the three non-Pentecostal Holiness churches: The Salvation Army, The Church of the Nazarene, and my own Christian & Missionary Alliance; as well as other Pentecostal but not Holiness denominations like the Assemblies of God and the Foursquare Church. Indeed, I would argue that nearly all of the defined Evangelical denominations that are not “continuing” or “traditionalist” off-shoots of an already established Mainline denomination would fall into this category since the vast majority of them were established well before the Fundamentalist-Modernist controversy took off.

2 - The vast majority of Fundamentalists, or at least the ones I was familiar with at BJU and in my BJU affiliated churches, are strict cessationists. The believe that all of the supernatural gifts of the spirit stopped dead in their tracks with the closing of the New Testament canon. That went so far as for one of my Theology professors at BJU to outright deny even the possibility that what was clearly (at least to me) a miraculous healing that had happened to one of my classmates was anything other than a “medical mystery” or “spontaneous remission.” They were all universally against speaking in tongues and saw it as, at best, some kind of nigh unto pagan ecstatic trance and, I kid you not, evidence of demonic possession at worst.

It also goes without saying that they hated the music and the worship style of Pentecostals. The most expressive we were allowed to be at Bob Jones was the occasional “amening” or a preacher. I saw a kid get called up in front of the Dean of Men (a lovely German Professor of Philosophy who happened to be a member of the Hitler Youth once upon a time and kept, honest to goodness, a knife collection behind his chair) for just turning his hands palms up during a prayer once. He didn’t even raise them and they gave him the full on Inquisition treatment just to be absolutely sure that they didn’t accidentally let one of those Charismatic Neo-Evangelical “compromisers” into the student body.

 

[JustaServant]

BeProfOSX.
The two preachers I was familiar with were pretty closed-minded and legalistic. Although they are mild compared to the Jack Hyles variety of fundie. And you’re right, they really despise Charismatics. I always found the BoJos, the preachers at least, to be rather “high brow”. They turn a lot of people off with that attitude.
Liberty grads on the other hand are much more open-minded. I’ll always have nothing but good things to say about Jerry Falwell. He opened an abortion alternative shelter, and took a stand against abortion that put to shame other fundies of the day. He might not have been a friend to Catholics, but he walked the walk.

 

[manualman]

I largely agree with your post, Cat, but not with this part at all. I think it’s extremely common, even the norm, for Evangelicals to have non-Christian friends, and have warm friendships with their non-Christian neighbors.

Yes and no. My evangelical world experience was in college with the Navigators (similar to Campus Crusade or Intervarsity, though Navs typically see themselves as something like the Marine Corps as compared to IV Army and CC Air Force…)

I’d certainly agree that the evangelical world encourages believers to have acquaintances in the secular world. Not so sure about deeper friendships. My experience there was that the ‘unsaved’ (which included catholics until/unless individually proven otherwise) were viewed as projects at least as much as they are viewed as persons.

In fairness, I’d say that I saw a much greater sense of urgency there that people repent of their sins and receive the Grace and forgiveness of Christ than I often do among catholics. Unfortunately, that often manifested in the treatment of people as projects rather than friends.

But my favorite bedrock definition of the difference between a fundamentalist and an evangelical is that the former tends to scowl at me while the latter tends to point a saccharine smile my way. The catholic, of course, simply ignores me…

 

[ltwin]

Anyways… One the Pentecostal-OSAS thing… yeah… traditional Pentecostalism is the big, big exception to that rule; but, I don’t consider Pentecostals to be Fundamentalists, although they certainly are Evangelicals

I agree. They aren’t Fundamentalists. But I wanted to emphasize that not all evangelicals believe in OSAS.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I’d certainly agree that the evangelical world encourages believers to have acquaintances in the secular world. Not so sure about deeper friendships. My experience there was that the ‘unsaved’ (which included catholics until/unless individually proven otherwise) were viewed as projects at least as much as they are viewed as persons.

Well, I’ve been initially viewed as a “project” by some of my non-Christian friends! I’m deeply involved in visual arts activities and horsemanship activities, and have very close friends within both sets of people. I certainly never see them as projects; they are who they are, and I fairly quickly in starting a friendship let them know I’m a Christian, so I will be who I am as well. But, I’ve been “evangelized” by horsemen and artist friends early on in several friendships, who want me in their particular horsemanship or artistic camp, so to speak. ( Believe me, people can be pretty “religiously” passionate about art and horsemanship.) I just think it’s funny. I accept that they mean well; when people really believe in something, they naturally want others to share in it.

I get what you’re saying about project vs. person, Manualman, and while that can be a problem, it’s not confined to Evangelicals (or even, as above, to religious people) by any means. I have a Catholic friend who also initially viewed me as a project, till he gave up, and now I’m his very first Protestant friend.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I agree. They aren’t Fundamentalists. But I wanted to emphasize that not all evangelicals believe in OSAS.

Yup…I think the visibility of some of the pastors on TV who do believe in OSAS can make people think it’s more widespread than it is.

 

[manualman]

I get what you’re saying about project vs. person, Manualman, and while that can be a problem, it’s not confined to Evangelicals (or even, as above, to religious people) by any means.

True enough! I get terribly tired of Ford people trying to convert me from GM. And don’t get me started about RVers who assume that my popup camper is my ‘entry RV’ from which I am destined to “move up.” They do indeed come in all flavors, don’t they?

And then there’s Packer fans. Far worse than fundamentalists…

 

[Per_Crucem]

And then there’s Packer fans. Far worse than fundamentalists…

Hey now…you’re treading on mortal sin.