Difference between SSPX and Henry VIII's anglican church?

[Sarpedon]

They way I see it, these two movements, the SSPX and the original Anglican church, are somewhat similar. Both involve disobedience to Rome, but little or no doctrinal change. (the anglican church would later go protestant, but it was not always so. Henry VIII just wanted his divorce, he didn’t care about changing doctrine).

Any takes on this? Since St. Thomas More and St. Fisher chose martyrdom rather than join the disobedient church, I think it is critical question.

 

[neel]

I’d say the main difference is that the SSPX is Catholic, whereas the Anglicans were heretics and schismatics (yes, from the get go).

I don’t think the SSPX can be compared to Anglicans. But I think the men who altered the Holy Mass to look like an Anglican “mass” could probably be compared to Anglicans.

 

[maesb60]

I’d like to extend the question. Besides the claim of SSPX to apostolic succession and retention of the sacraments and so on, there are other ‘catholic’ churches, such as the Charismatic Episcopal Church that make this claim. I think I understand their argument, i.e. each claiming to carry on the ‘true’ church and beginning with a validly ordained bishop of the Catholic church. However, while I intuitively know this is mistaken, i.e. to think you can keep splintering from the Catholic church while still being “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church”, I don’t know the proper line of reasoning to explain this error. Can anyone help me with this? Perhaps it is due to the founding bishop in each of the cases I’m aware having been excommunicated? Also, how does this differ from the eastern orthodox churches?

Thanks and God bless,
Brian

 

[maurin]

Brian,

the Church Herself is still treating the SSPX as an internal matter of reconciliation within the Church.

On the other threads there are many links to Cardinal Hoyos making such statements.

 

[Sarpedon]

Let me clarify something:

I am only speaking of Henry VIII’s church. Henry VIII wanted to have his divorce, so he broke obedience to Rome. He did not intend to change the doctrine of the church, he simply wanted his way. In the years after his decision, the Catholic church operated as it always had (same doctrines, practices, teachings), only without allegience to Rome (kind of like China).

Later, protestants would change the doctrine of the Anglican church, making it partially lutheran and calvinistic. I am not considering this phase in this thread.

The only point where Henry VIII may have changed doctrine is the relationship between the Bishop of Rome and the other bishops. For the SSPX, this could be akin to the belief that the OF is inferior and that VII was pastoral, not dogmatic (they teach these two things, right?).

 

[pnewton]

One similarity that I see is that both groups wanted to usurp the Holy Father’s control of bishops.

 

[BrendanD]

The only point where Henry VIII may have changed doctrine is the relationship between the Bishop of Rome and the other bishops. For the SSPX, this could be akin to the belief that the OF is inferior and that VII was pastoral, not dogmatic (they teach these two things, right?).

I don’t think you can draw a comparison between Henry VIII’s beliefs and the SSPX’s. The SSPX’s beliefs are Catholic, not heretical.

By the way, it was Pope John XXIII who said that Vatican II was a pastoral council.

 

[hannah_miriam]

They way I see it, these two movements, the SSPX and the original Anglican church, are somewhat similar. Both involve disobedience to Rome, but little or no doctrinal change. (the anglican church would later go protestant, but it was not always so. Henry VIII just wanted his divorce, he didn’t care about changing doctrine).

Any takes on this? Since St. Thomas More and St. Fisher chose martyrdom rather than join the disobedient church, I think it is critical question.

What does SSPX stand for?

 

[Sarpedon]

I don’t think you can draw a comparison between Henry VIII’s beliefs and the SSPX’s. The SSPX’s beliefs are Catholic, not heretical.

What were Henry VIII’s heretical beliefs?

By the way, it was Pope John XXIII who said that Vatican II was a pastoral council.

Can you elaborate on this? Does being “pastoral” mean that one can morally disregard it?

 

[Sarpedon]

What does SSPX stand for?

Society of St. Pius X, a breakaway traditionalist group that is either in schism or an “irregular standing”, depending on who you ask.

The bishops are excommunicated, the priests are suspended, and their masses are valid but illicit.

 

[pnewton]

Sarpedon:

This thread will invite a lot of answers that use circular logic. many answers will boil down to nothing more than “We are right, they were wrong, so it’s different.” I hope you don’t get dizzy easy.

 

[BrendanD]

What were Henry VIII’s heretical beliefs?

Rejecting the Pope. Maybe schism is the right word, as I don’t know exactly what his beliefs were.

Can you elaborate on this? Does being “pastoral” mean that one can morally disregard it?

Not at all, I was just pointing out that calling it “pastoral” isn’t something from the SSPX, it’s from the Pope.

 

[pnewton]

Rejecting the Pope. Maybe schism is the right word, as I don’t know exactly what his beliefs were.

FYI, you are right. That is one major difference. Henry rejected the Primacy of Peter.

I think we would also be remiss if we didn’t mention the motives of these two people were also drastically different. Lefebvre definelty held the moral high ground when it comes to motivation.

 

[BrendanD]

FYI, you are right. That is one major difference. Henry rejected the Primacy of Peter.

I think we would also be remiss if we didn’t mention the motives of these two people were also drastically different. Lefebvre definelty held the moral high ground when it comes to motivation.

Exactly. History may decide that Lefebvre was a total nutcase, but he definitely believed that he was defending the Catholic Church.

 

[saint_rafael]

It seems all the threads that deals with traditional Catholic issues have been closed and locked, yet this thread which compares the SSPX to the Anglican church is still open?

The Anglican church being a Protestant sect that is heretical, has no apostolic succession, and no priesthood is compared to a Catholic religious order that is inside the Catholic Church and approved in 1970? That makes sense.

It seems that the one thread completely bashing the SSPX was the only one left open.

 

[Sarpedon]

The Anglican church being a Protestant sect that is heretical, has no apostolic succession, and no priesthood is compared to a Catholic religious order that is inside the Catholic Church and approved in 1970? That makes sense.

I am specifically talking about the anglican church when it was almost entirely Catholic. Same TLM, same teaching, practices, with the issue of the relationship between the Bishop of Rome and the other bishops the only main doctrinal difference.

Hmm… If Henry VIII had only disobeyed the church, not officially changed the one doctrine (I am not 100% sure he did change it officially), do you think St. More would have refused to acknowledge the Anglican church? Maybe not, because he was willing to acknowledge Anne Boleyn as the rightful queen.

 

[pnewton]

It seems that the one thread completely bashing the SSPX was the only one left open.

They were locked for flagrant disregard of rules, not content, specifically open discussion and criticism of the moderator’s action.

 

[pnewton]

I am specifically talking about the anglican church when it was almost entirely Catholic.

Yet the Anglicans rejected one vital doctrine, the primacy of Peter, and they have reaped the fruits of that heresy. By rejecting the papacy, they have no protection againt other heresies. The SSPX reject only the papal leadership and they may pay the price for that some day if they are not regularized, but this is nothing compared to the path that the Anglican Church took.

 

[saint_rafael]

I am specifically talking about the anglican church when it was almost entirely Catholic. Same TLM, same teaching, practices, with the issue of the relationship between the Bishop of Rome and the other bishops the only main doctrinal difference.

Hmm… If Henry VIII had only disobeyed the church, not officially changed the one doctrine (I am not 100% sure he did change it officially), do you think St. More would have refused to acknowledge the Anglican church? Maybe not, because he was willing to acknowledge Anne Boleyn as the rightful queen.

The moment the Anglican sect broke from the Church it seized to be Catholic. They immediately changed the rite of ordination. There were immediate changes to the Mass. It6 ceased to be the TLM after the break.

 

[saint_rafael]

Yet the Anglicans rejected one vital doctrine, the primacy of Peter, and they have reaped the fruits of that heresy. By rejecting the papacy, they have no protection againt other heresies. The SSPX reject only the papal leadership and they may pay the price for that some day if they are not regularized, but this is nothing compared to the path that the Anglican Church took.

Ridiculous to say that the SSPX rejects Papal leadership. The SSPX have a huge body of working defending the Papacy from Sedevacantism. They prayed two million rosaries for the Pope in wake of Summorum Pontificum. This a group that made a pilgrimage to St. Peter’s Basilica to pray for the Pope in 2000. This was the event that stirred the conscience of many in the Vatican with Cardinal Ratzinger saying that they showed them true faith.

This has always been the Sensus Catholicus of Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX who know the importance of being united to the Vicar of Christ.

The SSPX has only spoken against the doctrinal errors in the Church and the mistakes of the Papacy. They have never rejected leadership.

The Church in the end will vindicate and apologize for the injustice they have committed against this noble Catholic order.