Difference non-denominational Church vs other "reborns"?

[Esdra]

Hi all,

recently I’ve found out that the Vineyard Church is not a Pentecostal Church (as I’ve always thought), but a non-denominational Church. - This Church exists in Innsbruck, the nearest bigger city from where I live. (And where also my working place is.)
**
Now, what’s the difference between let’s say, Baptists, Pentecostals and non-denominational Churches?**

in Christ,
Esdra

 

[ltwin]

Hi all,

recently I’ve found out that the Vineyard Church is not a Pentecostal Church (as I’ve always thought), but a non-denominational Church. - This Church exists in Innsbruck, the nearest bigger city from where I live. (And where also my working place is.)
**
Now, what’s the difference between let’s say, Baptists, Pentecostals and non-denominational Churches?**

in Christ,
Esdra

High Esdra. It’s quite simply really.

Baptists are the oldest of all three groups. There ecclesiastical structure is congregational so there are wide variety of doctrinal and practical perspectives. There can be (liberal) mainline Baptists or (conservative) evangelical Baptists. In general, they all Baptists are characterized by subscription:

“to a doctrine that baptism should be performed only for professing believers (believer’s baptism, as opposed to infant baptism), and that it must be done by immersion (as opposed to affusion or sprinkling). Other tenets of Baptist churches include soul competency (liberty), salvation through faith alone, scripture alone as the rule of faith and practice, and the autonomy of the local congregation. Baptists recognize two ministerial offices, pastors and deacons.” - Per Wikipedia ( I know its not always trustworthy but in this case I think its on the mark).

I think they’ve been around in some form since the Protestant Reformation.

**Pentecostals **emerged in the 1900s out the “radical evangelical movement” (mostly from the holiness movement which had earlier split from Methodism which had earlier split from Anglicanism). These evangelicals felt that Christianity was missing the power of the early church. They felt that Jesus’ return was soon coming and they needed power to reach the whole world for the Gospel.

They sought power and found it in the form of an experience that they called “baptism with the Holy Spirit”. This is not the new birth, but a distinct and subsequent experience that endues the Christian with power for vocation and a greater intimacy with Christ. Many North American Pentecostals believe that “speaking in tongues” is the “initial physical evidence” of the baptism with the Spirit. However, outside of North America there is less adherence to this doctrine of “evidential tongues”.

Pentecostals believe that all Christians are given some spiritual gift and that the Body of Christ should make use of these spiritual gifts. They do not distinguish between the more mundane gifts and the more miraculous gifts. All are presently working within the Church.

Pentecostals also believe in divine healing. It is God’s normal will to heal because for them “healing is in Christ’s atonement”. Pentecostals realize that not all are healed, but they believe that the Christian should still ask and have faith in God for healing. If one is not healed, then one should still be faithful to God.

 

[Esdra]

High Esdra. It’s quite simply really.

Baptists are the oldest of all three groups. There ecclesiastical structure is congregational so there are wide variety of doctrinal and practical perspectives. There can be (liberal) mainline Baptists or (conservative) evangelical Baptists. In general, they all Baptists are characterized by subscription:

“to a doctrine that baptism should be performed only for professing believers (believer’s baptism, as opposed to infant baptism), and that it must be done by immersion (as opposed to affusion or sprinkling). Other tenets of Baptist churches include soul competency (liberty), salvation through faith alone, scripture alone as the rule of faith and practice, and the autonomy of the local congregation. Baptists recognize two ministerial offices, pastors and deacons.” - Per Wikipedia ( I know its not always trustworthy but in this case I think its on the mark).

I think they’ve been around in some form since the Protestant Reformation.

Pentecostals emerged in the 1900s out the “radical evangelical movement” (mostly from the holiness movement which had earlier split from Methodism which had earlier split from Anglicanism). These evangelicals felt that Christianity was missing the power of the early church. They felt that Jesus’ return was soon coming and they needed power to reach the whole world for the Gospel.

They sought power and found it in the form of an experience that they called “baptism with the Holy Spirit”. This is not the new birth, but a distinct and subsequent experience that endues the Christian with power for vocation and a greater intimacy with Christ. Many North American Pentecostals believe that “speaking in tongues” is the “initial physical evidence” of the baptism with the Spirit. However, outside of North America there is less adherence to this doctrine of “evidential tongues”.

**Pentecostals **believe that all Christians are given some spiritual gift and that the Body of Christ should make use of these spiritual gifts. They do not distinguish between the more mundane gifts and the more miraculous gifts. All are presently working within the Church.

Pentecostals also believe in divine healing. It is God’s normal will to heal because for them “healing is in Christ’s atonement”. Pentecostals realize that not all are healed, but they believe that the Christian should still ask and have faith in God for healing. If one is not healed, then one should still be faithful to God.

Hi

thanks for this great answer!

Could it be that you mixed up the words pentecostals and non-denominational Church in the last paragraph, or haven’t you simple not written about them?

 

[ltwin]

Non-denominational churches are simply churches that have left or never were part of any “denomination” or wider church. Many of these are evangelical, but I’m sure there are non-evangelical non-denoms out there. They usually have a belief statement which is quite standard. Also, their form of government will depend. Some maybe highly congregational in that the members of the church vote on decisions (much like Baptists), or they could be a church where the pastor or a board of elders has spiritual and business oversight of the congregation and makes most decisions. There are Baptist non-denoms (Baptist churches not affiliated with any wider Baptist denomination), Pentecostal non-denoms, charismatic non-denoms, and just plain old generic evangelical non-denoms.

The Vineyard is sort of a new denomination. What happened is that John Wimber, the founder of the Vineyard, is this non-charismatic evangelical. Anyway he comes to the views of the Pentecostal and charismatics that all the spiritual gifts are present in the Church today and have never ceased.

So he begins to teach what he calls “empowered evangelicalism”. This is that where the Gospel is proclaimed (much like in the New Testament) there should be displays of God’s power. He believed in healing and believed in equipping lay people on how to pray for healing.

It has some things in common with Pentecostalism but its more charismatic than classical Pentecostal. If I’m not mistaken, the Vineyard believes that Christians are Spirit baptized when they are born again. So to them, all true Christians are “Spirit-filled” however they do believe that a person can have many fillings of the Spirit within their life. So those in a Vineyard church could have an experience similar to Pentecostal baptism with the Holy Spirit, only they wouldn’t call it Spirit baptism but “being filled”.

PS: The Vineyard started in the 80s. The charismatic movement in both mainline Protestant churches and the Catholic Church began in the 60s. The charismatic movement is sometimes called “neo-Pentecostalism” (new Pentecostalism) and the Pentecostalism that began in the 1900s is generally called classical Pentecostalism.

 

[Scoobyshme]

Does it bother you that new denominations are being founded almost daily? I mean, really. How many churches did Jesus found? And did He ever give anyone else His authority to found a Church different than the one He founded? For example, did He ever say, “Okay, 1600 years from now, there’s going to be a man named John Smyth, whom I will give my authority to found a different church, the Baptists.”? Or, 1900 years later, to form the Pentecostals, etc.?

 

[Publisher]

Does it bother you that new denominations are being founded almost daily? I mean, really. How many churches did Jesus found? And did He ever give anyone else His authority to found a Church different than the one He founded? For example, did He ever say, “Okay, 1600 years from now, there’s going to be a man named John Smyth, whom I will give my authority to found a different church, the Baptists.”? Or, 1900 years later, to form the Pentecostals, etc.?

The problem with your question is that a “denomination” is not a church…it is the organizational structure through which the Church utilizes…there is only One Church…all who have “put on Christ”…who have been “baptized into Christ” by His Spirit are members of the Church…a new “Church” was not founded…simply a new organization through which members of The Church could carry out their ministry.

 

[Esdra]

Does it bother you that new denominations are being founded almost daily? I mean, really. How many churches did Jesus found? And did He ever give anyone else His authority to found a Church different than the one He founded? For example, did He ever say, “Okay, 1600 years from now, there’s going to be a man named John Smyth, whom I will give my authority to found a different church, the Baptists.”? Or, 1900 years later, to form the Pentecostals, etc.?

John Smyth was the founder of the Baptists?
Didn’t know that…

 

[Esdra]

The problem with your question is that a “denomination” is not a church…it is the organizational structure through which the Church utilizes…there is only One Church…all who have “put on Christ”…who have been “baptized into Christ” by His Spirit are members of the Church…a new “Church” was not founded…simply a new organization through which members of The Church could carry out their ministry.

Well, as he mentioned John Smyth, Joseph Smith came to my mind, and well, Joseph Smith indeed created a new Church I would say.

But otherwise you’re right, the other protestant “Churches” aren’t new churches but part of the one big Church, as you have written.

 

[SteveVH]

But otherwise you’re right, the other protestant “Churches” aren’t new churches but part of the one big Church, as you have written.

I’m really grasping at how to respond to the comments made by you and Publisher. How can 40,000 + denominations, all disagreeing with each other, claim to be part of the one, true Church? Which Church would that be, of which you claim to be a part? Claiming unity, where division is the prominent feature, is really nothing more than wishful thinking and does nothing to promote truth. In order to claim membership in one Church, do you not think that people should at least agree on what that Church believes?

Now, keep in mind I mean nothing disparaging here against anyone. I believe all denominations (the Catholic Church not being a denomination) have some truth and in some cases, most of the truth. But when we disagree on some very fundamental issues (Friends do not believe in water baptism, for instance) ignoring those issues in order to claim “oneness” in some vague idea of “Church” just seems silly.

As for “non-denominational” churches, I believe such a thing exists in name only. What does “non-denominational” mean? Do its members not hold any specific beliefs at all?

 

[Esdra]

I’m really grasping at how to respond to the comments made by you and Publisher. How can 40,000 + denominations, all disagreeing with each other, claim to be part of the one, true Church? Which Church would that be, of which you claim to be a part? Claiming unity, where division is the prominent feature, is really nothing more than wishful thinking and does nothing to promote truth. In order to claim membership in one Church, do you not think that people should at least agree on what that Church believes?

Now, keep in mind I mean nothing disparaging here against anyone. I believe all denominations (the Catholic Church not being a denomination) have some truth and in some cases, most of the truth. But when we disagree on some very fundamental issues (Friends do not believe in water baptism, for instance) ignoring those issues in order to claim “oneness” in some vague idea of “Church” just seems silly.

As for “non-denominational” churches, I believe such a thing exists in name only. What does “non-denominational” mean? Do its members not hold any specific beliefs at all?

Which Church doesn’t believe in water baptism?

I’ve never said that there are not also cults out there which claim to be Christians (like Mormons, JWs and similar ones.)

But all the others are part of the one Church of all believers united through Christ Jesus Himself who has died on the cross for our sins!

Of course the CC is also a denomination. What else?

I think the thing with the denominations is comparable to a big family. There is also not everyobody exactely the same - and that’s good. (I can see that in my family… - I mean that we are not exactely the same.)

I think this big, unvisible Church has ALL TOGETHER the one truth. Yes, also the CC has truthes (correct English?), but also Baptists etc.
And thus I think it’s so important that these Churches (and yes indeed, here also the Protestant Churches are in charge!) work together as often as possible and form outwardly a united Christianity.

Did you know that for a Muslim all Christians are the same? He doesn’t differentiate. I know that from the dad of my collegue who are muslims - For him even JWs are Christians!

There are so many non-Christians out there, and I think it’s important to reach them - and it doesn’t matter if Protestants reach them, or Catholics or even Orthodox!
Christ is the only way into heaven! And there are so many people out there who don’t know Him.
So instead of quarrelling within the denominationes fighting over more or less minor differences in theology [There are even quarrels within one denomination!], we should stand together and try to reach those who don’t know Christ (or who do know Him, but don’t want to know anything for Him - and that’s the case within the Liberal Protestant Churches as well as the Catholic Church, and certainly also Baptists in areas where they are the majority denomination!)

in Christ,
Esdra

 

[GlobalWolf]

The Pentecostal and Baptist movements aren’t denominations in and of themselves, since they are subdivided into denominations like the SBC, Free Will Baptists, Primitive Baptists, etc. The Vineyard would be a Pentecostal/Charismatic assembly even if it didn’t belong to a particular denomination within Pentecostalism, just like Independent Fundamental Baptists are Baptists even though they aren’t members of an official denomination (or at least I don’t think they are).

 

[puzzleannie]

The Pentecostal and Baptist movements aren’t denominations in and of themselves, since they are subdivided into denominations like the SBC, Free Will Baptists, Primitive Baptists, etc. The Vineyard would be a Pentecostal/Charismatic assembly even if it didn’t belong to a particular denomination within Pentecostalism, just like Independent Fundamental Baptists are Baptists even though they aren’t members of an official denomination (or at least I don’t think they are).

and not all Pentecostal denominations are Christian or Trinitarian, in that they do not believe fully in what most Christians profess about Christ in the classic creeds.

 

[Scoobyshme]

John Smyth was the founder of the Baptists?
Didn’t know that…

You may find this interesting (just a sampling):

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," “Pentecostal Gospel.” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.

 

[Scoobyshme]

The problem with your question is that a “denomination” is not a church…it is the organizational structure through which the Church utilizes…there is only One Church…all who have “put on Christ”…who have been “baptized into Christ” by His Spirit are members of the Church…a new “Church” was not founded…simply a new organization through which members of The Church could carry out their ministry.

To assume that “the Church utilizes” these man-made organizations seems to somehow imply that the Church, which has Christ’s authority on earth, approved them. Not so. Neither did Jesus approve of anyone starting a church or denomination apart from the one He founded. There is but one Church, the Catholic Church. All who are validly baptized (some are not, since they don’t use the Trinitarian formula), become members of this Church, the Catholic Church. However, Protestants are not in communion with the Church, and are therefore separated from the Church, which is the Body of Christ.

 

[ltwin]

and not all Pentecostal denominations are Christian or Trinitarian, in that they do not believe fully in what most Christians profess about Christ in the classic creeds.

Most Pentecostals practice Trinitarian baptism which is accepted by other Christians as Christian baptism. A small minority are called Oneness Pentecostals and are unitarian, but they do not represent most Pentecostals.

Also Pentecostals have no problem affirming the historic creeds of the united church. Pentecostal beliefs are completely compatible with the Nicene and Apostle’s creeds.

 

[SteveVH]

Which Church doesn’t believe in water baptism?

The Quakers, for one. Publisher can verify that for you.

I’ve never said that there are not also cults out there which claim to be Christians (like Mormons, JWs and similar ones.)

But all the others are part of the one Church of all believers united through Christ Jesus Himself who has died on the cross for our sins!

All the others? Are you sure? Do you know the beliefs of 40,000 denominations? Who decides what should be accepted and what should be rejected in order to be considered part of this “one Church of all believers”? As time goes on and the denominations grow further away from the original (Catholic) Church there is no end to the variety of beliefs out there. What is essential? Water baptism? How about the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Catholics would say it is essential, but you may not. Is the “sinner’s prayer” a requirement for accepting Christ into your life? Baptists would say so, I would not. 40,000 denominations means 40,000 differences in belief. Who is right and who is wrong, or does it really matter? I think it does matter.

Of course the CC is also a denomination. What else?

Denominations are parts into which one whole is divided. The Catholic Church is not a division of any religion because it is the original; the “whole” from which the others divided. All other Christian churches are denominations of Catholicism.

I think the thing with the denominations is comparable to a big family. There is also not everyobody exactely the same - and that’s good. (I can see that in my family… - I mean that we are not exactely the same.)

I think this big, unvisible Church has ALL TOGETHER the one truth. Yes, also the CC has truthes (correct English?), but also Baptists etc.
And thus I think it’s so important that these Churches (and yes indeed, here also the Protestant Churches are in charge!) work together as often as possible and form outwardly a united Christianity.

Striving for unity is a noble exercise, but not at the expense of the truth. We cannot ignore our differences because truth then becomes relative; whatever one chooses to believe. As a Catholic I believe that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth. We are not dependent upon other churches in order to arrive at the fullness of truth. All other Christian denominations possess truth, but are lacking in the fullness of truth. As an example, the Eucharist has been the source and summit of the Catholic faith since its foundation 2000 years ago. Most Protestant denominations reject the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, preferring their own interpretation of the last supper. Should the Catholic Church do away with this belief in the interest of unity? I don’t think so.

Did you know that for a Muslim all Christians are the same? He doesn’t differentiate. I know that from the dad of my collegue who are muslims - For him even JWs are Christians!

Ignorance does not make something true, it just makes one ignorant. For most Christians all Muslims are the same. In reality they are not. Just ask a Muslim.

There are so many non-Christians out there, and I think it’s important to reach them - and it doesn’t matter if Protestants reach them, or Catholics or even Orthodox!
Christ is the only way into heaven! And there are so many people out there who don’t know Him.

So instead of quarrelling within the denominationes fighting over more or less minor differences in theology [There are even quarrels within one denomination!], we should stand together and try to reach those who don’t know Christ (or who do know Him, but don’t want to know anything for Him - and that’s the case within the Liberal Protestant Churches as well as the Catholic Church, and certainly also Baptists in areas where they are the majority denomination!)

Well, I appreciate your sentiments but reality is reality. I would disagree that our differences are more or less minor. That is why I gave you the example of the Eucharist. This is something that can never be watered down or compromised. The answer, in my opinion, is for people to follow their faith upstream until they reach the source from which it originated. They will find the Catholic Church and the fullness of truth.

Pope John Paul, II said that the greatest enemies of Christianity are Christians. He meant this in relation to how we live out our daily Christian lives and that we may be responsible for destroying another’s faith by the way we live. I think it can also be applied to the Reformation and the incredible division that resulted. Why would one be interested in joining a faith in which no one seems to be able to agree as to exactly what they believe?

 

[Esdra]

You may find this interesting (just a sampling):

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," “Pentecostal Gospel.” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.

Yes, that’s really interesting. Thank you.

Though your last sentence is unneseccary or in other words false as the Catholic Church wasn’t founded by Jesus, but by his Apostles and that it developed over the past, let’s say roughly 2000 years so that it is like it is now in the 21th century.
And when it became the national religion of the Roman Empire it got many influences of other cults within the Roman Empire (i.e. Mithras cult, but also others) - and that’s a historical fact! (And I studied some semestres of Ancient History!)

Furthermore:
You forgot one important and powerful “sect” which operates worldwide, which is the Seventh-Day-Adventists which was founded by Ellen G. White and William Miller in 1845.

Jehovah’s Wittnesses were also founded earlier (meaning NOT in the past 20th, but in the 19th century) by Charles T. Russel.

Oh, and I remembered, as you have written a little bit more about John Smyth.
He and his religion (at that time more or less new - considering the little bit earlier Anabaptists) is also one of the reason, so I learned in History classes, why the Pilgrim Fathers went off to America.

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

PART I

The Quakers, for one. Publisher can verify that for you.

Okay, the Quakers seem to be a sect for it’s own (judging from this forum) and I know practically nothing about them.

All the others? Are you sure? Do you know the beliefs of 40,000 denominations? Who decides what should be accepted and what should be rejected in order to be considered part of this “one Church of all believers”? As time goes on and the denominations grow further away from the original (Catholic) Church there is no end to the variety of beliefs out there. What is essential? Water baptism? How about the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Catholics would say it is essential, but you may not. Is the “sinner’s prayer” a requirement for accepting Christ into your life? Baptists would say so, I would not. 40,000 denominations means 40,000 differences in belief. Who is right and who is wrong, or does it really matter? I think it does matter.

Well, no I don’t know all 40,000 denominations, especially since where I am live there are by far not so many Protestant sects than in the US.

Anyway, I think we’ve discussed that in dept in other places… - I mean what is “essential” and what not.

And the question “right and wrong”… - Well… How did Pilate put it so nicely? “What is truth?”

Denominations are parts into which one whole is divided. The Catholic Church is not a division of any religion because it is the original; the “whole” from which the others divided. All other Christian churches are denominations of Catholicism.

Yes, I think we’ve also covered that… Denomination is in German “Konfession” and “Konfession” also includes the Catholic Church. - It’s a problem of terminology…

**~~~~~~~~~~~~~
to be continued…

 

[Esdra]

PART II

Striving for unity is a noble exercise, but not at the expense of the truth. We cannot ignore our differences because truth then becomes relative; whatever one chooses to believe. As a Catholic I believe that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth. We are not dependent upon other churches in order to arrive at the fullness of truth. All other Christian denominations possess truth, but are lacking in the fullness of truth. As an example, the Eucharist has been the source and summit of the Catholic faith since its foundation 2000 years ago. Most Protestant denominations reject the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, preferring their own interpretation of the last supper. Should the Catholic Church do away with this belief in the interest of unity? I don’t think so.

Of course it’s noble!

Mhm, do I err, or does it work in the Episcopolean/Anglican Church? Aren’t there Calvinists (Low Church) vs. the High Church?
Does it work? Yes, it does, apparently.
I mean, I do have problems with those liberal Churches in part, especially when they move away from the word of God by allowing abortion and gay marriage (At the moment in the county where I live a discussion on abortion is going on…)

• Anyway, it does work!
  The Calvinist part doesn’t believe in the Real Presence, the High Church part does. ('Though from the Catholic perspective it is’nt valid anyway…)
  Another example is the so often by me mentioned Evangelical (Lutheran and Reformed United) Church in Austria (as well as in Germany).
  It does work, apparently. The Reformed don’t believe in the RP - the Lutherans do ('though a little bit different than the CC, despite it isn’t valid from the CC’s perspective as well!)
  And I am sure there are also other differences, as well in High Church vs Low Church, as in Lutheran vs. Reformed!
  Even our local Catholic pastor said, he doesn’t see a problem to give a divorced woman the Eucharist, or even to give it to someone, who is a Christian, but doesn’t in the RP!
  And such “more liberal” Catholic pastors are all over the Catholic World.
  So, actually I see no problem. We are united by Christ and His Word and the “details”, IMO, everyone should handle, as he wants to believe.
  In Switzerland, i.e., as I saw in a Report on a Christian TV Channel (German), in a retirement/rehab home (for people who became invalid because of an accident), male and female pastors (and in the CC female laity) of the CC, as well as the Reformed Church of Switzerland, regularly pray together with the patients/old people and make TOGETHER a short service.

Ignorance does not make something true, it just makes one ignorant. For most Christians all Muslims are the same. In reality they are not. Just ask a Muslim.

I know that there are at least 3 big more or less different “denominations” in Islam!
I’ve often talked about it with my Muslim friend.

Anyway, my point is that Muslims don’t know that there are, as you and others here write, 40,000+ different Christian denominations.
And, and that’s important, especially for the US I think, also for Islamistic fanatics/extremists there is no difference.
So, if they think we are all one (who don’t have any idea about Christianity, except what it says in the Holy Qu’ran, why can’t we think that?
I think, by the way, it’s not ignorance (that sounds so negative in my ears!), but simply not knowing better. - Aren’t we Christians not also in general ignorant (to use this horrible word of you) of the Muslims and their believes?

**~~~~~~~~~~~~~
to be continued…

 

[Esdra]

PART III

Well, I appreciate your sentiments but reality is reality. I would disagree that our differences are more or less minor. That is why I gave you the example of the Eucharist. This is something that can never be watered down or compromised. The answer, in my opinion, is for people to follow their faith upstream until they reach the source from which it originated. They will find the Catholic Church and the fullness of truth.

It can’t? What happened in the Episcopolean Church/Anglican Church then?
In the beginning they also believed firmly in the RP, later, as they opened themselves, Calvinist thinking came in, and also partly (in Low Churches) disbelieve in the RP…

Pope John Paul, II said that the greatest enemies of Christianity are Christians. He meant this in relation to how we live out our daily Christian lives and that we may be responsible for destroying another’s faith by the way we live. I think it can also be applied to the Reformation and the incredible division that resulted. Why would one be interested in joining a faith in which no one seems to be able to agree as to exactly what they believe?

Why doesn’t anybody see the great progress those two Churches (The CC and the Evangelical Church) have made over the past 500 years concerning steps to reunification?
And I think Pop John Paul II never meant to interpret his quote like you did above!
He talks about ourselves. - About our lives. Actually, that’s not that different from the Baptist’s view, and that’s the reason why we need to be REBORN.
Mhm, one last thought, Christians believe: That Jesus Christ has died for us on the Cross so that we may live.
That the Bible is God’s written word - his love letter to us (as I read on a website recently! )
That humans are sinners and that noone can go to heaven except by faith in Jesus, god’s rescue for us humans.
I think this is already enough in common for a searching person to choose Christianity (no matter which denom in this case!)
And I am sure, we can find other things ALL denominations have in common (excluding Christian cults. Because I often have the feeling that some of you mix up cult and sect!)
But I guess that’s worth another thread.
If you want you can create it, StevenH.

So far…

in Christ,