Differences between Catholic faith and Baptist?

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One of the best books I have ever read, I think would be helpful to someone looking at these two churches: “By What Authority” by Mark Shea. So many issues between Baptists and Catholics spring from the issue of authority, as Mayra Hart pointed out.

Before I converted to Catholicism from SBC, I also listed to a series by John MacAuthor (a staunch sola-scriptura guy) to get both sides. If the Bible does not teach sola scriptura, then sola acriptura logically cannot exist. Several times during his exegisis, JM inserted the word “sufficient” where it does not exist in the text. This is not the sole reason I am Catholic today, but it is the final reason.
 
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Malachi4U:
I forgive you for your rude comment as I follow Gods word. I try to write with Love as Jesus taught. (Read 1 Cor 13 for examples of “Love”.) But I can see you cannot yet see through the condridicting Baptist theologie(s). I will pray for you to see and hopefully others here will help to point out flaws in Baptist theologie(s). Grouping all Baptist into one group is like saying all fish in the ocean are alike.

The post you quoted me from was a post to Carol and not you so that Carole could seek the answers to my questions. I can see that you too need to seek them. It was meant so that she could research and find the answers. I did not state examples so that the search could be made free from conclusions in an honest manner. I hope you can understand how I wanted her to study honestly for an honest answer without a closed mind. Hopefully you will learn from this the different styles of writting used on this forum.
Malachi, I understand your post was meant for Carole. I also found it full of misleading propaganda for dismissing the Baptist faith. That’s why I was so harsh. I didn’t mean it as a personal attack, but was compelled to point out that some things were not true. I do not ask your forgiveness for that.

You mislead her by saying Baptists changed the Bible, etc, etc. Those statements are wholly untrue. They were misleading. It’s almost like I was watching a Bush or Kerry commercial using propaganda and attempting to discredit their opponent. I find that way of dealing with issues appalling.

I’m an open-minded person who happens to be a Baptist. Of course I follow the Baptist faith, but I realize I could be wrong on some issues. I see churches and theologians misapplying Scripture - both protestant and catholic. I see them using propaganda (there’s that word again) to sway the other side. I see both using commandments of men, which are not from God. I accept that. It’s part of the human condition.

I completely disagree that you were simply using a style of writing for this forum. I understand literature types and yours was what I described above - propaganda (the last time I will use it here). I have separated feelings from this debate. I hope you will too. I wish you blessings…
 
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Malachi4U:
That’s correct, however I know of Baptists that state they were the origional church founded by Jesus and that ALL other churches broke off from them and are thus non-apostolic! My daughter was even taught this in the AWANA program (which she is still in by the way).The Baptist do not have the authority from God to delete books of Scripture, however they use the abridged versions of the Bible that the English publishers made in the 1800’s (i.e. KJV). It was the British publishers and men like Luther that delted 7-11+ books from Scripture. The Baptists just accept the 66 book version of the British publishing houses from the 1800’s. A note here, the origional Baptists hated the Kings version of Scripture since it was a political version by a practicing homosexual king. The Baptists used the Geneva Bible origionally from what I’ve seen.Baptists did not exist in the early Church so they could not have changed it. What they did was to change away from the teachings of the early Church on issues like birth control, marriage, baptism, etc…Try reading the NT. It is full of examples to be of one mind, one body, one Church, to remain loyal and to avoid schism.
First, the baptist church as the original is a theory propagated by some Baptists. I agree it’s not true. It’s just a theory.

Second, you freely admit here that the Baptist did not take out Scripture, but use “abridged” versions of the Bible. Unless, you want to say that the Baptist church was alive and well in the 1500’s, instead of 1600’s. Therefore, you mislead her and everyone else who read your post. That’s plain wrong. You have just contradicted what you posted earlier, which was why I rebuked you.

The Geneva Bible was used by Baptists and other reformers. John Calvin wrote some of the commentary himself. The Puritans used it and brought here to America. It was the Bible of choice. That is correct.

A couple deciding for contraception and dissolving a marriage are between them and God. The Catholic Church has no business intervening. Baptism is symbolic. These issues you brought up are non-essential. Our salvation is not dependent on them - something you and I will agree to disagree on.
 
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ahimsaman72:
…This is not entirely accurate. The Baptist denomination didn’t really begin till 1607 officially. It is incorrect to say that Baptists deleted books out of Scripture.

It is also incorrect to say that the Baptists changed the early church. I don’t understand - have any examples?

Scripture was written by Moses, David, Solomon, the prophets then by apostles and other disciples like Matthew, Paul and Peter, etc. Don’t you believe that too? These men were inspired by God to write what they did. And they did it for our benefit - to learn.

As for the rest of your post - it is similarly ridiculous and without examples it is impossible for your post to make sense. Basically condescending garbage.
Gods peace be with you theophilus ahimsaman72,

This is the thread starter by Carole,

“My daughter is considering being Baptist. When asked why, she describes their wide range of children’s programs, a large and beautiful building, and social contacts. I have encouraged her to thoroughly research the faith first. Can someone help me to accuately describe for her how Catholic is different from Baptist?”

In my first post I posed questions for the daughter to find the answers to. One technique of instruction is to pose questions for the students to find the answer. This creates more awareness in the student of the question. The daughter could research both Baptist and Catholic sources for the truth and see the way each side states the truth or manipulates it to fit theological beliefs. I did not state any answers or declare any facts. All I did was to ask and pose questions for a student of truth to find the answers to. It is in the answer that we find truth, not the question.

Here are the questions I wrote:

“Start with what the early Church taught and how the Baptists changed that.
What about them deleting books out of Scripture?
Who wrote Scripture?
Did Jesus command us to be schismatics or of one mind and body?
What about their changing Faith and Morals whenever they feel like it?
Etc. etc., etc…”

Your false self-interpretation of my statement proves self-interpretation wrong and full of error. I am here and available for you to ask questions of just as Jesus was available to the apostles for questions. So I suggest that on my posts and others here you ask questions of the poster instead of using self miss-interpretation of facts and coming to false conclusions. Look what chaos miss self-interpretation has done to Christianity!

Here are a few verses as support for what I said as you like proof:

Neh 8:8 “8 Ezra read plainly from the book of the law of God, interpreting it so that all could understand what was read.”

Mt 13:36 “36 Then, dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples approached him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.””

Jn 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word.”

Gal 5:10 “I am confident of you in the Lord that you will not take a different view, and that the one who is troubling you will bear the condemnation, whoever he may be.”

Gal 6:6 “One who is being instructed in the word should share all good things with his instructor.”

2 Thes 2:15 “Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.”

2 Pe 1:19-21 “Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, 21 for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.”

PS, you can add proof to your comments too, if you like.
 
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Malachi4U:
In my first post I posed questions for the daughter to find the answers to. One technique of instruction is to pose questions for the students to find the answer. This creates more awareness in the student of the question. The daughter could research both Baptist and Catholic sources for the truth and see the way each side states the truth or manipulates it to fit theological beliefs. I did not state any answers or declare any facts. All I did was to ask and pose questions for a student of truth to find the answers to. It is in the answer that we find truth, not the question.

Here are the questions I wrote:

“Start with what the early Church taught and how the Baptists changed that.
What about them deleting books out of Scripture?
Who wrote Scripture?
Did Jesus command us to be schismatics or of one mind and body?
What about their changing Faith and Morals whenever they feel like it?
Etc. etc., etc…”

Your false self-interpretation of my statement proves self-interpretation wrong and full of error. I am here and available for you to ask questions of just as Jesus was available to the apostles for questions. So I suggest that on my posts and others here you ask questions of the poster instead of using self miss-interpretation of facts and coming to false conclusions. Look what chaos miss self-interpretation has done to Christianity!
Malachi, you imply that your questions are merely objective. They were not objective. For instance, you could have asked the same questions differently and been objective and given her the basic questions she needed to find the truth. For example:
  1. Have Baptists changed what the early church taught?
  2. Have Baptists deleted books out of Scripture?
  3. Who compiled the canon of Scripture?
  4. Did Jesus want believers to have unity or be in schism?
  5. Have Baptists changed their faith and morals compared to when they began their denomination?
    etc. etc. etc.
You made statements and declared facts simply by wording your statements into questions. I would call that implication.

I was forthright and gave answers to Carole that she needed to deal with her daughter’s situation. I didn’t give her propaganda for my faith. I gave her answers. I suggest you be honest with people and give facts objectively, not lead them with your own false interpretations of the Baptist faith.

I don’t think Carole needs questions posed back to her to answer her questions. Example: What is truth? I don’t know, what do you think is truth?, Do you know the truth? No, do you know the truth?
See what I mean. That’s confusing. I gave her solid answers to the Baptist faith. You gave her questions which mislead her to think things that were not so.

By the way, I’m not Theophilus and you are not my teacher, bishop or authority figure. I seek only to learn from other Christians and hopefully someone learns from me also. It’s called brotherhood - lording over authority. Forgive me, but I do not wish to engage with you through this thread anymore. It is draining of my energy and unfortunately is clouding my determination to be brotherly in love to you. I do not want that.

God’s peace be upon you…
 
Ahimsaman,

I have enjoyed our exchange, and appreciate your thoughts and answers to my questions.

You wrote: “I also agree that Paul charges Timothy with the task of correcting those spreading false gospels. From my vantage point, Timothy was a pastor and teacher - giving him “authority” to correct those dissenters.”

From my vantage, Timothy has authority because Paul has conferred it upon him—he has ordained him. I don’t see him as a pastor per se (at least in this particular instance of being sent to others to stop the spread of false doctrine), in charge of an individual church (our understanding of a pastor), but as an emissary from a higher authority (Paul) sent to wayward pastors. Obviously there IS a correct doctrine, and Paul sends Timothy out to correct the distortions. Following the logic of Protestantism, there is no warrant for Paul to send Timothy, because those who were spreading a “false gospel” were merely using their private judgement—it may have seemed very truthful to them—and who is Paul to tell them they are wrong?

You wrote: “Local pastors of church members have that same authority.”

Do they have that authority by virtue of their post, or by the truth of what they teach? How does the average layman know that what the local pastor is teaching is true? I have seen the Bible used to support many contradictory (and sometimes outrageous) positions—how does a person judge? Perhaps it would be helpful to see what the early Church used as its test…apostolic succession, for starters.

You wrote: “Also, I believe laypersons have a responsibility to counter those who are spreading false teachings.”

You are right, and I can only hope and pray that more people take the responsibility to do just that.

You wrote: “In this person’s case or in a dissenting priests case - you can excommunicate them or fire them, but that doesn’t stop them from leaving the “church” or organization and going off on their own.”

That’s true, however, in Catholicism, excommunication means something. It is a loss of a “seal of approval”, if nothing else, and so if ex-Father Joe goes and forms his own church, those who might attend have a warning, so to speak, that his teaching is not in accord with the Church. It is information that the would-be attendee could use to their advantage (a bit like product labeling, if you’ll forgive the analogy). Protestantism has no such standard—if someone starts their own church, there is no one to say that what they preach may or may not be in accord with any standard of truth. If truth matters, then this matters. I know that you can cite Scripture as an authority or standard, but there are too many contradictory interpretations for that to be practically useful. I doubt that Luther and others could have foreseen the fracturing that has happened to Protestantism since their time.

I’ll have to continue my response in a second post.
 
Ahimsaman,

my response, continued…

You wrote: “That’s obviously where God steps in. I believe we should do all we can and whatever is left is executable by God. I didn’t mean to imply that we do nothing to counteract such terrible behavior.”

I agree with you completely. We all need to pray for our pastors and teachers, and at times that may be all that we are left with.
I didn’t mean to imply that you meant that we should do nothing—from your posts, I wouldn’t think that. My point was to ask, by what authority do you counteract errant teaching?

You wrote: “Just remember, even in congregational government like the Baptists have, there are authoritative measures in every local congregation. Pastors, elders and deacons have specific mandates written into the bylaws of the church. They may excommunicate and rebuke those in error and are given the responsibility to teach correct and Biblical doctrine. Of course this form of government is different in alot of respects than the Catholic church, but nonetheless is effective.”

I agree, and it doesn’t sound much different from the Catholic Church as you describe it (though on a much smaller scale). But this doesn’t answer the question of whether or not the doctrine that the congregational government is protecting and spreading is correct. Again, I would look at the ways in which the early Church distinguished between true and false regarding doctrine.

I wish to make clear to you that I have no broad-brush animus against Baptists, though I am frankly cautious now because of some negative experiences with some varieties. When I was a Protestant, I went to a Baptist church here in Minneapolis and benefited greatly from the preaching of its pastor, John Piper. I was in the process of rejecting my atheism at the time, and he was instrumental in leading me back to Christ. (My brief history: born Catholic; raised in an observant but not fervant home; poorly educated in the Catholic faith [like most of my generation]; atheist; Protestant; agnostic as a result of the relativism I saw in Protestantism; and then I finally took faith seriously and started studying and searching, which led me back to the Church.) I have nothing but kind words to say about the people I met then and their sincere desire to know Christ. And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the folks I met were not anti-Catholic. However, the relativism of Protestantism was just not logical to me, and I sought objective truth, not just a religion that “fit” me or made me feel good.

You wrote: “Romans 13:8 is very clear about the mandate to love. Here it is: “Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.””

Amen!

I’ll respond to your second post when I have the opportunity. God bless you and yours.
 
One of the greatest dividers between Catholics and such fundamentalists as Baptists is the manner in which we construct the relationship between the Bible and authority within the Church. The Catholic Church has, for its part , acknowledged this state of affairs (UR, 21), which is so awkwardly apparent to those believers, Catholic and Baptist alike, who seek only to share the Good News of Jesus Christ with those around them.

So, what can we say about the practical import of our doctrinal differences on the matter of the Bible and authority? In rationalizing their split from the Catholic Church some 500 years ago, the reformers and their congregational progeny have raised the compelling battle-cry of “sola scriptura”! The Catholic Church has responded by underscoring the importance of apostolic traditions within Divine Revelation, and by emphasizing the teaching office of the episcopacy (e.g., LG, 25). The Church thus views the deep reverence that Baptists have for the written Word of God as something approaching a cult of the Book (UR, 21).
 
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ahimsaman72:
… I’m not Theophilus and you are not my teacher, bishop or authority figure…
Theophilus means “freind of God”, I am sorry and apologize if I offended you by calling you a “freind of God”. Again, my apologies. We are using English here and I should not have used Greek on you. Too bad the ancient Catholic writters of Scripture didn’t translate every word from the LXX into English to avoid these misunderstandings of self-interpretation.

You are also right that I am not your teacher bishop or authority figure. I never claimed to be. I thought we were just haveing a friendly exchange with open minds. I apologize yet again for mis-interpreting your desires here, whatever they are. You’re right though in that our authority figure and teacher and bishop lies in the Church Christ established 2,000 years ago and commanded us to be loyal and obiedint to. I am sorry if my Scripture verses I quoted offended you in stateing so.

I agree, you seem not to use words and understand concepts the way Catholics do here on this forum. Since you wish to no longer comunicate in public I understand. I am glad however that Christ never stopped trying to teach us His Gospel, never gave up on us and established authorities here on earth for us in His body, His Church. He is here for both of us. I hope someday you better understand the words we use and what they mean referance the definitions you use. Not all of use can ‘speak in tongues’, it is truly a gift from God for only a few of us.

I ‘pray’ to you, please forgive my transgressions and forgive me.

I shall block your posts so I shall no longer “see” them on this forum, it may be best if you do likewise to me and those here that offend you with our theology or style of writting. Too bad we’re not all English degree holders to avoid these problems. I am so glad that this Catholic forum allows non-Catholics on it since many other denominational forums will not allow Catholics to join.

A prisoner of Christ,
 
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Sherlock:
Sherlock, please forgive me because I have had to edit out my original responses in order to keep this in one post and I have edited some of your message also.
From my vantage, Timothy has authority because Paul has conferred it upon him—he has ordained him. I don’t see him as a pastor per se (at least in this particular instance of being sent to others to stop the spread of false doctrine), in charge of an individual church (our understanding of a pastor), but as an emissary from a higher authority (Paul) sent to wayward pastors. Obviously there IS a correct doctrine, and Paul sends Timothy out to correct the distortions. Following the logic of Protestantism, there is no warrant for Paul to send Timothy, because those who were spreading a “false gospel” were merely using their private judgement—it may have seemed very truthful to them—and who is Paul to tell them they are wrong?
We don’t really know why those who were spreading false gospels were doing so. And it is uncertain really as to what some of the false gospels were. We do know that some were teaching that the second coming had already taken place. I agree that there was a true gospel and a false gospel. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-20 we see a great summation of the gospel that Paul was preaching. I proclaim that same gospel.
Do they have that authority by virtue of their post, or by the truth of what they teach? How does the average layman know that what the local pastor is teaching is true? I have seen the Bible used to support many contradictory (and sometimes outrageous) positions—how does a person judge? Perhaps it would be helpful to see what the early Church used as its test…apostolic succession, for starters.
Pastors have their authority by virture of their post. The average layman can know that what the local pastor is teaching as true by imitating the Bereans spoken of in Acts 17:11. The Bereans “searched the scriptures” as should all people. Unfortunately, yes the Bible has used to support some outrageous positions. Cars have been used to run people over too, but we still drive them.🙂
Protestantism has no such standard—if someone starts their own church, there is no one to say that what they preach may or may not be in accord with any standard of truth. If truth matters, then this matters. I know that you can cite Scripture as an authority or standard, but there are too many contradictory interpretations for that to be practically useful. I doubt that Luther and others could have foreseen the fracturing that has happened to Protestantism since their time.
Growing up in a small town in the hills of East Tennessee had its advantages. We knew all the preachers in town and which ones were preaching certain doctrines. 🙂 Of course, that would only be helpful if you were a church-goer and mingled with other church-goers. You have to remember there are deacons and elders in the churches. They are responsible to see that the congregation is led correctly. If a pastor is teaching principles other than what the Southern Baptist Convention believes (for example), they can go to him, explain their differences and can then decide on action. The office of elders and deacons is the “check and balance” used in the local church government. So, there is a standard there. You might counter with the question of the deacons authority and interpretations. Well, then this falls upon the congregation members, which again I would refer you to the example of the Bereans in Acts.
 
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Sherlock:
I wish to make clear to you that I have no broad-brush animus against Baptists, though I am frankly cautious now because of some negative experiences with some varieties. When I was a Protestant, I went to a Baptist church here in Minneapolis and benefited greatly from the preaching of its pastor, John Piper. I was in the process of rejecting my atheism at the time, and he was instrumental in leading me back to Christ. (My brief history: born Catholic; raised in an observant but not fervant home; poorly educated in the Catholic faith [like most of my generation]; atheist; Protestant; agnostic as a result of the relativism I saw in Protestantism; and then I finally took faith seriously and started studying and searching, which led me back to the Church.) I have nothing but kind words to say about the people I met then and their sincere desire to know Christ. And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the folks I met were not anti-Catholic. However, the relativism of Protestantism was just not logical to me, and I sought objective truth, not just a religion that “fit” me or made me feel good.
Yes, I know of John Piper. He is a leader in the protestant faith. I don’t know much of his teaching, I’m afraid.

To some extent, yes, there is a degree of relativism in the protestant faith. Some things are considered essential for the faith and others are not. “Unity in essentials, liberty in non-essentials, charity in all things.” This is a good summation of my personal belief. It might seem vague, but I think there’s good reason for that.

God’s blessings and peace upon you and yours…
 
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Malachi4U:
Theophilus means “freind of God”, I am sorry and apologize if I offended you by calling you a “freind of God”. Again, my apologies. We are using English here and I should not have used Greek on you. Too bad the ancient Catholic writters of Scripture didn’t translate every word from the LXX into English to avoid these misunderstandings of self-interpretation.

You are also right that I am not your teacher bishop or authority figure. I never claimed to be. I thought we were just haveing a friendly exchange with open minds. I apologize yet again for mis-interpreting your desires here, whatever they are. You’re right though in that our authority figure and teacher and bishop lies in the Church Christ established 2,000 years ago and commanded us to be loyal and obiedint to. I am sorry if my Scripture verses I quoted offended you in stateing so.

I agree, you seem not to use words and understand concepts the way Catholics do here on this forum. Since you wish to no longer comunicate in public I understand. I am glad however that Christ never stopped trying to teach us His Gospel, never gave up on us and established authorities here on earth for us in His body, His Church. He is here for both of us. I hope someday you better understand the words we use and what they mean referance the definitions you use. Not all of use can ‘speak in tongues’, it is truly a gift from God for only a few of us.

I ‘pray’ to you, please forgive my transgressions and forgive me.

I shall block your posts so I shall no longer “see” them on this forum, it may be best if you do likewise to me and those here that offend you with our theology or style of writting. Too bad we’re not all English degree holders to avoid these problems. I am so glad that this Catholic forum allows non-Catholics on it since many other denominational forums will not allow Catholics to join.

A prisoner of Christ,
I will not reply to most of what you have said above. It seems that you are mocking me. To be clear, I do not believe you need to repent of anything to be in right standing with me, nor do I need to repent of anything. Here is my direct quote about our relationship,

***“Forgive me, but I do not wish to engage with you through this thread anymore. It is draining of my energy and unfortunately is clouding my determination to be brotherly in love to you. I do not want that.” ***

I clearly stated that I didn’t want to engage with you THROUGH THIS THREAD anymore - not forever and all places. Sometimes it is best to let sleeping dogs lie. We will agree to disagree and for my part, I will not hold grudges. I will love you - I choose to love. I also choose not to debate on this thread with you so as not to destroy that. Don’t you get it?

I have no intention of blocking your posts. Hopefully, you will not block mine. I wish you only peace and blessings.

By the way, Sherlock and I have had a good conversation back and forth where we have respected each other and expressed our beliefs at the same time.
 
Gods peace be with you again theophilus (freind of God) Carole,

part 1

Rather then ‘hijack’ your thread I shall return to your needs.

First and most important you must get your daughter to question her Faith and the faith she wants to join. If she is being led blindly and without question or thought then there is not much you can do. If your daughter on the other hand still has an open mind and yearns for knowledge and truth and Jesus then you can still present to her facts.

Someone who is brain dead will accept any old buffet line theology. Some of this and non of that or half a portion of those. Someone who just wants to socialize cares nothing about what Jesus taught in His verbal Gospel. These people often just want short term gains. Someone who has an active mind with love for Jesus will follow Him regardless of the social aspects or feel good now theology. The Gospel Jesus taught - Faith - should be her goal.

Your daughter must have a desire to follow Jesus no matter what or where He leads her. Jesus has led Christians over history into places that did not feel good or have great social promise. However, the Christians always had Jesus, Faith and a “Hope” for salvation.

Ask your daughter questions and give her sources for facts before it is too late. Point out to her where and when the Baptist theology strayed away from Scripture and the early Church. You must learn this too if you wish to converse with her. Ask the other questions too.

No two Baptist churches need be alike so you cannot group them all to one theological issue or stance. They believe in self-interpretation and as a result schism/divide/separerate from each other regularly. Self-interpretation leads to schism which Jesus warned us about. Just look in the yellow pages of a big city phone book for Baptist church.
 
Part 2

Even if your daughter gets “RE”-baptized and becomes a Baptist, don’t worry. God loves all His children and Jesus came down to save us all. Baptists are Christian too, just not Catholic Christian. Some of the nicest Christians I know are Baptist.

Some help:

Sites for “Sola Scriptura” and/or Scripture history:
http://members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/scripture1.html
http://www.catholic.com/library/scripture_tradition.asp
[catholicoutlook.com/scripture.php](http://catholicoutlook.com/scripture.php)

About Baptism:
http://members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/baptism1.html
http://www.catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp
[catholicoutlook.com/sacraments.php#Baptism](http://catholicoutlook.com/sacraments.php#Baptism)

Saved by faith “alone” or once saved always saved:
http://members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/salvation1.html
http://www.catholic.com/library/salvation.asp
[catholicoutlook.com/salvation.php#Faith%20and%20Works](http://catholicoutlook.com/salvation.php#Faith and Works)

Baptist theological errors overall:
[angelfire.com/ms/seanie/baptists/baptistindex.html](http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/baptists/baptistindex.html)

Conversion stories to Catholicism:
[ewtn.com/journeyhome/](http://ewtn.com/journeyhome/)

General information:
http://www.newadvent.org/
http://www.catholicapologetics.org/aptoc.htm
http://cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/apolo.html
http://www.geocities.com/peterpaulmin/articles.html
http://scripturecatholic.com/
http://onefaith.freeservers.com/index2.htm
http://www.turrisfortis.com/
catholic-legate.com/
 
Ahimsaman,

You wrote: “You have to remember there are deacons and elders in the churches. They are responsible to see that the congregation is led correctly. If a pastor is teaching principles other than what the Southern Baptist Convention believes (for example), they can go to him, explain their differences and can then decide on action. The office of elders and deacons is the “check and balance” used in the local church government. So, there is a standard there. You might counter with the question of the deacons authority and interpretations. Well, then this falls upon the congregation members, which again I would refer you to the example of the Bereans in Acts.”

Actually, this all seems quite reasonable. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it basically sounds like the Catholic Church, though on a smaller scale. Thanks for the info—I didn’t know much about how the Southern Baptist Convention was structured. Let me take that back—I didn’t know anything!
 
Ahimsaman,

You wrote: “Yes, I know of John Piper. He is a leader in the protestant faith. I don’t know much of his teaching, I’m afraid.”

And I’m afraid I don’t remember much of it—that was many, many moons ago.

You wrote: “To some extent, yes, there is a degree of relativism in the protestant faith. Some things are considered essential for the faith and others are not. “Unity in essentials, liberty in non-essentials, charity in all things.” This is a good summation of my personal belief. It might seem vague, but I think there’s good reason for that.”

It’s a very good motto. It might surprise you, however, that I see it as being exemplified by the Catholic Church (with its theologically unified but very different rites) more than by Protestantism. That motto is a pretty good summation of why I am a Catholic and left Protestantism: I just didn’t see any unity in the essentials. What was considered “essential” to my Lutheran friends was not considered as such by the Baptist church I attended.For example, the Real Presence in the Eucharist—the Lutheran understanding is very, very different from some other Protestant denominations. Ditto with Baptism. I could go on… I also went to some Evangelical churches and “non-denominational” churches, and found different ideas there about what was essential. Also, some denominations I encountered showed very little liberty in non-essentials: for example, I knew those who preached that the the earth was created in a literal seven-day period, each day being a literal 24-hour day. ANY suggestion of anything different was met with thunder and brimstone. I found the Catholic Church’s view on this to be refreshingly sensible: the Church doesn’t take a position on this, and people are free to believe in a literal seven 24-hour days, or that a “day” in God’s mind may mean billions of years, etc. The Church insists on the essential—God created the universe. Another example of a non-essential that had a Baptist friend up in arms was immersion vs. sprinkling—there was no liberty and no charity there. I’m afraid that we’ll have to agree to disagree here (I simply do not believe that truth is relative), but I have enjoyed our discussion, and have appreciated your posts. God bless.
 
**The Church Christ founded is Catholic, not Baptist **

The Baptists have existed since the early 17th century, in contrast with the Catholic Church which was founded by Christ upon Peter as recorded in Matthew 16:18. (see the file “History of the Baptists” ). The term “Catholic” which means “universal” was used from a very early date, in connection with the Church with the Successor of Peter as its head. In contrast, the term “Baptist” is not to be found at all in the early centuries. An examination of the writings of the Early Church Fathers will show that the early Church was Catholic in its belief, not Baptist.

I quote from Catholic Answers: What “Catholic” means: Ignatius of Antioch:
“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains *. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]). The Martyrdom of Polycarp:
“And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).

The above cited Catholic Answers article contains many more citations.

The beliefs of Baptists are nowhere to be found in the Early Church. Baptists do not regard themselves as offshoots of the Protestant Revolt of the 16th century; rather they try to trace their origins back to Apostolic times. Baptists sometimes claim St. John the Baptist (more correctly known as St. John the Baptizer) was the first person to baptize, so, they say, the early Church was Baptist, not Catholic. Two responses: first, John did not baptize with the Trinitarian formula, (as required in Matthew 28:19)and second he did not baptize with the Holy Spirit. See John 3:27 , where St John the Baptist replies to those who say everyone is going to Jesus for baptism: “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven”. Also note in Matthew 3:14 we see that John wanted Jesus to baptize him, thus showing the inadequacy of John´s baptism.

Also note in Matthew 3:14 we see that John wanted Jesus to baptize him, thus showing the inadequacy of John´s baptism.

John 1:31-33 “the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be reveaed to Israel.”…"the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'the man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'So from the point of view of John’s baptism, there can be no claim that the Baptists can trace the lineage of their church back to him as his baptism was only a forerunner of the true Trinitarian Baptism: In any case, there can be no historical connection established linking the Baptists with the early Church. A study of the early Church writings demolish any such claims of the Baptists. bless you all:)*
 
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Sherlock:
Ahimsaman,

You wrote: “You have to remember there are deacons and elders in the churches. They are responsible to see that the congregation is led correctly. If a pastor is teaching principles other than what the Southern Baptist Convention believes (for example), they can go to him, explain their differences and can then decide on action. The office of elders and deacons is the “check and balance” used in the local church government. So, there is a standard there. You might counter with the question of the deacons authority and interpretations. Well, then this falls upon the congregation members, which again I would refer you to the example of the Bereans in Acts.”

Actually, this all seems quite reasonable. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it basically sounds like the Catholic Church, though on a smaller scale. Thanks for the info—I didn’t know much about how the Southern Baptist Convention was structured. Let me take that back—I didn’t know anything!
Greetings Sherlock!

Well, I’m glad I helped some.

Let me give you an example of how this has worked in my own life. Obviously, no names will be mentioned. (This is a Southern Baptist Church I attended.) Pastor X begins to let member Z of the congregation get up in the service and make accusations against the rest of the congregation. Member Z begins to prophesy that other members need to repent and are even committing adultery. Pastor X lets this continue. The deacons become concerned and go to the Pastor X to voice their concerns. Pastor X does not stop the congregation member from spouting their accusations in the church service. The deacons ask Pastor X to resign. If he doesn’t resign they intend to take a vote to the congregation where 75% must vote to fire Pastor X. That really happened and that’s the way the local church works.

Peace…
 
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ahimsaman72:
Greetings Sherlock!

Well, I’m glad I helped some.

Let me give you an example of how this has worked in my own life. . . . . Pastor X begins to let member Z of the congregation get up in the service and make accusations against the rest of the congregation. Member Z begins to prophesy that other members need to repent and are even committing adultery. . . . The deacons become concerned and go to the Pastor X to voice their concerns. . . . The deacons ask Pastor X to resign. . . .
Peace…
This must have been unspeakably painful for everyone. And we Catholics think WE’RE the only ones with problems!
 
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