Differences between Catholic faith and Baptist?

[ContraFool]

You make some good points…but I get the feeling that is not the way the SBC intends this to be understood. I think what they really mean to say is that anyone who flies the banner of Catholicism is not saved. But I could be wrong.

dhgray:

Malachi4U,

First of all, to group all Baptists together under the SBC umbrella, would be like saying all Catholics support John Kerry.
NOW let’s look at this thing:
****I AGREE, WE SHOULD ALL PRAY FOR EACH OTHER.
WE ALL NEED TO PRAY for the unsaved Catholic people. When was the last time you prayed that John Kerry would “hunger for the truth”?
WE ALL NEED TO PRAY a door for witnessing opportunities among those of the Catholic Church. Pope John Paul II told us that it is EVERY CATHOLIC responsibility and duty eo evangalize. As a Catholic-Christian Evangalist, I teach Catholics (and anyone else who will listen) how to have a personal relationship with Christ. Too many times I hear a Cradle Catholic say, “I don’t need this because I’m Catholic.” They could never me more wrong. Many Catholics have replaced Christ with the Sacraments when in fact the Sacraments were inteneded to keep us focused on him.
WE ALL NEED TO PRAY that our friends do put their trust in Jesus alone. Grace with a foundation prepared by God and in accordance with the work of the Spirit. 1960 IT IS BY GRACE ALONE that we are saved. The saceaments are meant to help us stay in Grace with God.

WE ALL NEED TO PRAY that our friends do develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. From

The Baptists may be on to something many of us have over looked … WE ALL NEED TO PRAY!

 

[dhgray]

ContraFool:

I think what they really mean to say is that anyone who flies the banner of Catholicism is not saved. But I could be wrong.

UNFORTUNATELY, in that contex, you are right.

 

[javelin35]

I would echo many of the posts here, being a former Baptist myself. I had always loved the teaching on assurance of salvation. I especially loved the lively worship. The altar call made a lot of sense as it was the church’s commission to lead others to Christ. The conservative tone of the culture was great too. Submersion baptism after beliving seemed very scriptural.

However, those are all surface things. Baptists have elder-pastors who are also the overseer all in one. They justify this by saying that the elder and overseer were combined (citing passages in Acts) but that is a stretch of what the early church did. Baptism is actually the new testament replacement for circumcision, and is necessary for salvation (yet it is not a work because the baptizee is not doing anything). The altar call, while admirable, was not done in the early church. Assurance of salvation, while very convenient, does not take into account rejection of God’s grace, nor does it reconcile with not forgiving others and being forgiven by God. Definitely, the Baptist view of symbolic communion does not wash with scripture. Of course the Baptist church was not literally started by Christ. All of these differences are hard to ignore. But the Baptist faith has helped many get free from an eternity in hell and get the abundant life.

 

[mayra_hart]

ahimsaman72:

First, let me point out a logical error. Just because the “Catholic faith” is older, doesn’t make it the correct one. Buddhism was 500 years before Christianity. You wouldn’t say Buddhism is correct, would you? No.

You’ve given statements for which you give no evidence. Baptists claim this, Baptists claim that…but you don’t give any examples for your sources. I’m assuming you made some of them up - right?

 there is the evidence

**The Baptist faith: Historical and Doctrinal ErrorsIf you are a Baptist visiting this site, you are warmly invited to read the articles on this page. Please God they will help with misunderstandings of history or of Catholic theology. Many more articles will, God willing, follow in the coming months. santa maria madre de dios …

**

 

[Malachi4U]

dhgray:

Malachi4U,

First of all, to group all Baptists together under the SBC umbrella, would be like saying all Catholics support John Kerry…

Gods peace be with you dhgray,

Perhaps you missed one of my posts. I stated this earlier in this thread:

“…No two Baptist churches need be alike so you cannot group them all to one theological issue or stance. They believe in self-interpretation and as a result schism/divide/separerate from each other regularly. Self-interpretation leads to schism which Jesus warned us about. Just look in the yellow pages of a big city phone book for Baptist church…”

I agree with you 100% that not all Baptist are of like mind or one body. I often state that they are different even within the same congregation. I hope I did not cause confussion for you if I did not restate that.

I was also in a bit of rage when I read that insulting article from the SBC web site. I know not all Baptists think Catholics are not Christian and need to be prayed for as a result. Of course you could also claim that all prayers are good if meant with good intent. If they want to pray for my soul then I would love to pray with them even if they have an incorrect concept on the Catholic Church. Anyway, I believe all Christian prayers are good, some may be misguided or misplaced but would still have a good intent.

I admitted I was outraged and insulted by their insult of me and Christs Church. I have prayed since then and God has seen fit to calm me down. I am sorry if my momentry fury upset anyone but I am human too and can and do sin. Again, I apologize if my post offended you or anyone else. I am the last one to prognosticate anyones salvation as that is the job of Jesus alone. I hope I am the last one upset by others claiming I am not ‘saved’ and not a Christian (I’m not ‘saved’, I have “HOPE”, see the NT for verses). Only God can judge us, save us and determine which of us are or are not Christian. The SBC web site was not written by Jesus so I should not have let their outlandish false claims upset me. I hope others do not get upset either.

 

[SoonerSweetie]

just a little side note: When I was baptist (in the High School Girl’s Sunday School Class), we had a little lesson about the cults of the world. Guess what was considered a cult. Yep, the good ol’ Roman Catholic Church.

Now, I know this doesn’t happen in every SB Church, but it happened in my hometown.

 

[Crusader]

ahimsaman72:

As a life-long baptist I can honestly say I’ve never heard anyone call a catholic a “non-Christian”. My pastors have always taught that people from all walks of life and many denominations would make it to heaven, including catholics. Unless this happened to you personally or is verifiable by someone close to you I would say this is a generalization and should not be repeated because my experience has not been so.

On the contrary, I could say that many catholics I’ve encountered on this forum have repeatedly viewed non-catholics as non-Christians.

The fact that you capitalized “Christian” and not “Catholic” suggests you yourself have undergone just a touch of programming…

 

[javelin35]

If Baptists think that Catholics are not saved, it is because Baptists, with their strong “once saved always saved” belief are a great contrast with Catholics who believe that a person can reject God’s grace and thus His salvation for us.

A Baptist would say that being able to reject salvation is identical to having to not reject salvation,
which to a Baptist is identical to having to do something to keep from losing salvation,
which to a Baptist is identical to having to do something to be saved,
which to a Baptist is works salvation.

But that is a misunderstanding of what grace is and what God expects from the believer. My analogy, even if it is not entirely accurate, is this: I have a lever that I use to lift a very heavy rock. The lever is connected to a complicated gearing system that includes hydraulic assistance. By pushing the lever I am able to lift up the rock. Did my work cause the rock to rise? Yes. Was it soley responsible? No. I cannot boast that my working the lever lifted the rock because the hydraulics did 99.9 percent of the work; however, without my working the lever the rock would not have moved. We are saved by grace through faith, but not as a result of works, lest anyone should boast. Faith is trusting that the rock would not fall on my child. Grace is the hydraulic system. Work is the lever. You see we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[mayra_hart]

as my own personal experience with baptist wasn’t good.during a bible study i was attending i decided to say the prayer of st francis of sales:" god let me be an instrument…" an the moderator felt offended because she thought i was praying to a saint. in another ocassion they told me that it was idolatry to pray first to the virgin an not to go. an finally i was amazed when i ask her to join me for a catholic bible study, an her answer was no so i wonder they are so interested in inviting catholics to their but not so happy when the invitation is for a catholic one:yup: bless you all

 

[JackPaul]

Hello,
Just had to chime in… It is obvious to me that the SBC is targeting a specific demographic in southern Texas. Being once a Baptist myself, I know that they put a large emphasis on growing their church. We used to have membership drives and they would give prizes for the person who brought the most non members to church. People would canvas the neighborhoods to find kids they could dupe into going to church, just to reduce the number of empty seats. Now, you can’t really fault this thinking. Some may say that more people is more dollars for the pastor. But the pastor might say the more people, the more converts to Christ. There are about 60 million people in the US that claim to be RC, but what percentage of those go to Church? Obviously, there are large numbers of folks that, for one reason or another, don’t attend. I know that I will get flamed for saying it, but I would rather see a fallen away RC find their love for Christ in a Baptist church, then not at all. They might not be able to receive the sacrements, but just knowing him is a step in the right direction. Hopefully, they will find a hunger in their heart later on that will lead them back to the fullness of the RCC, but in the meantime, they need Jesus any way they can get him. It is too bad that the RCC targets the thrid world for its missions and it doesn’t do the same kind of work at drawing back those lost sheep that the Baptist are doing. Praise God for finding his lost sheep. The RCC could learn something from this. If we have so much of the truth in our Church, then it should be easy to grow our Church. I get the idea that the RCC only thinks it necessary to have a bunch of babies to increase it’s numbers. Too bad. If we don’t like it, we should do something about it.
Just a thought,
Jack

 

[Malachi4U]

Gods peace be with you freind of God Jack,

JackPaul:

…I know that I will get flamed for saying it, but I would rather see a fallen away RC find their love for Christ in a Baptist church, then not at all…

BRAVO Jack! Well said.:clapping:

Why should you be ‘flamed’ for that. Our goal is to find God and obey His commands. Many do or try it as Catholic and some try as Baptists. You made an excelent point and I for one agree with it. I just wish now I had said it earlier. But never fear, I may use it later myself.

Keep the mind open and working and hopefully others can learn from your post. Great job!

 

[ahimsaman72]

Crusader:

The fact that you capitalized “Christian” and not “Catholic” suggests you yourself have undergone just a touch of programming…

If you notice, I didn’t capitalize baptist or catholic. So, maybe you read into it what you wanted out of it.

 

[mayra_hart]

to jack paul : thank you for your comments as for my own experience i can said that going into the baptist bible study it help in getting to know more about been a catholic. all those challenging questions make me eager to find answers. so now i can say i know more of being a catholic as i ever had. growing back in puerto rico you don’t find that need i went to catholic school for 12 years of my live, an because the catholic community is big you don’t have the need to know about your faith. also that study brought me back to the church which i know i was a way of after the birth of my son three years ago. so i think maybe god send me to that bible study with the purpose of showing my way back to church an him. bless you all

 

[handy]

mercygate:

Now THIS sounds like your best self! But for a Catholic, those reasons are not legitimate for leaving – as you are aware. A Methodist might become a Baptist for such reasons, but for Catholics the stakes are higher. Our relationship with the Church directly relates to our relationship with Jesus Christ.

Nevertheless, among people who leave the Catholic Church and later return, many claim that part of their return to the Church was owing to a period of time spent in a Bible-based Evangelical denomination. The Holy Spirit is busy, busy, busy, all the time and you simply cannot keep him in the house!

Yes, the Holy Spirit was busy busy busy back when, in Council, Church (the undivided Church) Bishops decided on which books belonged in a book to be called the Sacred Scriptures, and which books (or letters) did not belong, because they were, or were not deemed to be inspired. This Council of Bishops, in communion with the Bishop of Rome, was infallible when they gave us what is now the Bible. If they were infallible then, the Church is infallible now, and has been through the centuries. Therefore, newcomers (Baptists) are not the true church. St. Paul says “if we or an angel preaches differently from what you have learned, let him be anathema” The Baptists are not the true Church founded by Jesus Christ. It is a cold, sacrament free religion.

 

[ahimsaman72]

handy:

Yes, the Holy Spirit was busy busy busy back when, in Council, Church (the undivided Church) Bishops decided on which books belonged in a book to be called the Sacred Scriptures, and which books (or letters) did not belong, because they were, or were not deemed to be inspired. This Council of Bishops, in communion with the Bishop of Rome, was infallible when they gave us what is now the Bible. If they were infallible then, the Church is infallible now, and has been through the centuries. Therefore, newcomers (Baptists) are not the true church. St. Paul says “if we or an angel preaches differently from what you have learned, let him be anathema” The Baptists are not the true Church founded by Jesus Christ. It is a cold, sacrament free religion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion . I agree about what Paul said. Of course, I would argue that the gospel he preached is the same gospel that exists in the baptist church. A great summation of the Pauline gospel is found in I Corinthians 15. The whole chapter is a great summary of the Christian faith and essential beliefs. Those same essential beliefs are present in most churches, whether they are the catholic, baptist, lutheran, methodist, so on. The gospel message is the core of our faith, not a church institution.

 

[Malachi4U]

To add my comments about Baptists Bible studies. When I was in a Baptist Bible study one Sunday morning is when I discovered that what the instructor taught (Solid Baptist theological opinions) is not what Scripture said. He INTERPRETED it for the congregation. If you read the verses it condridicted what he said and taught which was in line with Baptist opinions. Even my wife said he was wrong and Scripture was right.

Anyway, thanks to that Baptist Bible study I became a Catholic. Praise God, he works in mysterious ways.

 

[Sherlock]

Ahimsaman,

I left this conversation some time ago on the note (I thought) of, “we’ll agree to disagree”. However, I see that the conversation has continued, and so I feel compelled to respond.

You wrote: “Pastors have their authority by virture of their post. The average layman can know that what the local pastor is teaching as true by imitating the Bereans spoken of in Acts 17:11. The Bereans “searched the scriptures” as should all people. Unfortunately, yes the Bible has used to support some outrageous positions. Cars have been used to run people over too, but we still drive them.”

I agree with what you are saying—just because particular Christians fall short of the ideal is no reason to throw out the ideal, and just because the Bible is used to support outrageous positions is no reason to throw out the Bible. Kinda a big “duh” there…

But you haven’t really addressed the problem—a very real one—of good and sincere people within the Protestant tradition who are not given to outrageous positions but who nevertheless have directly conflicting views regarding essentials (Baptism, once-saved-always-saved, etc) of the faith. There isn’t even a lot of agreement on what constitutes “essential”. Nice people, and they do indeed search the Scriptures, but somehow manage to come up with different interpretations. I don’t know how to phrase this question more plainly: how can contradictory “truths” still be truth? If we believe (as I do, being a Catholic) that Jesus is who He said He was—the Way, the Truth, and the Light—then I cannot logically believe that Truth is relative. Truth is a person—God—who cannot be logically be contradictory. God cannot be divided against God.

You wrote: “Since, as you state above, that the Catholic church doesn’t take a position on whether the creation was a literal 24 hour day or not, but leaves it up to the individual person, why are protestants belittled because we leave interpretation up to an individual when the Catholic church does the same thing? It seems hypocritical.”.

Not at all. You yourself have stated your motto as "“Unity in essentials, liberty in non-essentials, charity in all things.” I see, in the Church’s position, unity in the essentials and liberty in the non-essentials. This particular topic is a non-essential: my understanding of God’s plan for salvation does not rest upon my need to know whether a literal 24-hour day or a figurative “day” is meant by Genesis, and I will, on the strength of other passages that point to the Church as the “pillar and foundation of truth”, accept that freedom. I did not see this freedom when I was a Protestant, as some were very adamant about this.

more to follow…

 

[ahimsaman72]

Sherlock:

Ahimsaman,

I left this conversation some time ago on the note (I thought) of, “we’ll agree to disagree”. However, I see that the conversation has continued, and so I feel compelled to respond.

Sorry, didn’t mean to draw it out. I have tried to stay away (I said I would) because of heated posts that have come up because of my presence. I’m afraid we should leave it at that. I wish you blessings and peace.

 

[Malachi4U]

Carole,

Here are a few things that many, if not most, Baptists believe. I’ll restate again that not all Baptists believe the same thing. I am also only stating what is different. There are similar beliefs too with Catholics that I will not cover here.

Many/most Baptists believe:

Each church/congregation is autonomous.
Baptism by immersion only.
Believers church. (i.e. each person must accept the church and you are not born into it)
Baptists confess that one is “born again” or “regenerated” by faith in Jesus as Lord.
The final perseverance of the saints. (i.e. once saved always saved. True believers never loose salvation. Only those who don’t really have the faith to begin with can loose salvation since they really never had it to begin with. ‘Sola Fida’.)
Baptism is only symbolic.
Communion is only symbolic.
Calvanists who believe in predestination. (i.e. God knows before we are born who is saved and who is not saved. Nothing we do can change that. Many Baptists have avoided this belief too but not all.)
No man can be called ‘father’.
Sola Scriptura (the Bible alnoe is Gods sole and only word).
Catholics added books to Scripture.
Self-interpretation of Scripture is OK and can be taught without approval. (Catholics believe in sel-interpretation too! Catholics are not to teach it though until approved by the Church.)
Blessed Mary lost her virginity after Jesu was born.
Jesus had brothers (siblings) by Blessed Mary. (Not symbolic brothers and sisters since God is Father to us all but rather a son with the same mother, Blessed Mary, as Jesus with a human ‘father’.).

Things I was taught firsthand in Baptist churches that may or may not be large scale:

All one has to do after being saved is read the Bible.
The world is only 6,000 years old (God put dinosoars in the ground and other fosils when the earth was created.)
Catholics are a cult and not Christian at all.
The body of Christ on earth is not the Catholic Church, it would include all who believe in Jesus.
It is OK to ‘save’ the under age children of those you evangelize without parental permission.
Subordination of the Trinity (i.e. The Holy Spirit is lower/subordinate to Jesus who is lower/subordinate to the Father)
Baptists are ‘superapostles’ (OK, I don’t understand this one but it was taught to me).
There are NO rules outside the Bible.
All alcohol is bad.
Dancing is forbidden.
10% tithe is manditory by Scripture, anything over this is an offering.
Baptists are not protestant. (Not a big deal here, just a classification. Baptists say they cannot be protestant since Luther began the movement in the 1500’s and the Baptists were the origional - or similar to origional - church founded by Christ.)
Baptists were the origional church founded by Christ and therefore have apostolic authority.
Girls cannot wear dresses.
Jews are allowed to edit our Christian Scripture (A few Jews did this in 90 A.D.).
Christians and Jesus never used the Septuagint (LXX).
The only real Bible is the King James Version.
Baptisms by other denominations are invalid.

OK I’ll stop here. I gave you some beliefs by Baptists in General and some that I was taught firsthand over 27 years and by many different Baptists. I could go on and on but this is a good start at the differences between Catholic Faith and that of what the Baptists believe.

Now the next step would be for all of us here to prove or disprove each point. Add some points too if I missed them and you would like to add them. I would like to see what else someone has been taught as a Baptist or by a Baptist. This could also help Carole.

 

[Sherlock]

Ahimsaman,

continued:

You wrote: “Whereas the Catholic Church doesn’t take specific stances on some issues (like spoken of above), protestants delve deep into those issues and will definitively state something as true or false. Protestants are accused of relativism, but I see the Catholic Church being relative, while protestants define what is true and not true. They may not agree, but at least they make that decision.”

How does this square with your stated motto, “Unity in essentials, liberty in non-essentials, charity in all things”? Who decides, in the Protestant tradition, what is essential? I don’t have a problem in differing ideas in non-essentials, and welcome the (name removed by moderator)ut and insights of Protestant theologians, but surely you must see the problem with relativism regarding essentials, which is rampant in Protestantism. And are you actually suggesting that Catholics do NOT delve into these issues???!! Good heavens, that’s one of the reasons (among others) that I left Protestantism: there seemed to be a very real dislike and, at times, a hostility to intellectual discourse. I was accused of “intellectualism” when I asked questions, and I did not see, in fact, a history of intellectual discourse that was equal to Catholicism. Nor did I see a real engagement of culture: I am an artist, and so am obviously interested in the evangelizing power of beauty and how, ideally, the culture reflects and forms Christian values. What I received in the Baptist church (among many good things) was a distrust of artists working for God: the Sistine Chapel and other notable sites were not seen as expressions of artists’/architects’ homage to God but as idolatry and excess. Beauty was stripped away, and the Baptist services I went to were very nice (good sermons), but were honestly no different than hearing a motivational talk held at some public forum.

What I see in the Scriptures is Jesus founding a Church as the pillar and foundation of truth. I look at what I left behind in Protestantism, and can honestly say that I appreciate the gifts I received from them. However, they were swimming in relativism: if there is no real truth, then the road to salvation, despite what Jesus said, is very, very wide and pretty durn easy too.