Differences between Catholic Teaching and the Bible

[PatienceAndLove]

holy_wood;3422444:

O.K. lets back up a little, do you

1. believe that the Bible forbids the making of graven images?

Yes unless oredered specifically by God Himself… We are bound by God’s commandments He is not.

1. Believe its a sin to merely bow down to them.

Yes

I agree one must not worship them but as stated before I do not. And it is presumtuous to assume I do especially when you cannot see into the hearts of hellow man.

No but I can assume you believe Hindu’s to be idolators no? Do you know their hearts? No, you don’t need to because the commandment against idolatry doesn’t require us to be able to read mens hearts, we can see it easily with our God given senses.

Please explain to me whats so inherintly different in the act of bowing before man and Angel that is different from bowing before a statue?

For one God O.K.'s giving men and dignitaries their due respect for being their leaders, if custom is bowing this is shown to be O.K. (although Peter himself rebuked a disciple for bowing before him as did Angels in the Bible), He specifically forbids bowing before graven images… Men are made in God’s image they are not graven images. Yes worshipping a man is wrong and idolatrous, but you’re acting like the two are mutually exclusive. However the commandment states do no make, bow down before, or worship graven images.

But let’s stay on topic and not introduce other variables that have nothing to do with graven images.

On graven images:
Numbers 21: 6-9 Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them. Upon which they came to Moses, and said: We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.** And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.** Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

Exodas 25: 16-20
And thou shalt put in the ark the testimony which I will give thee. Thou shalt make also a propitiatory of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half. Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered.
This Rock Jan 1994:

link

IN Exodus 20:3-6 God forbids making graven images for the purpose of idolatry but does not forbid the making of graven images per se. Elsewhere he commands that statues and other graven images be carved for religious purposes. The Catholic Church permits statues because they remind us of unseen things, but it condemns the idolatry of statue worship.

“[The Lord said] make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. . .” (Ex. 25:18-19).

“You shall make the tabernacle with . . . cherubim skillfully worked” (Ex. 26:1).

“The Lord said to Moses, `Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole” (Num. 21:8-9).

“He made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the Temple . . . And he overlaid the cherubim with gold. He carved all the walls of the Temple round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers” (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27-29).

“[The brazen sea] stood upon [statues of] twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east” (1 Kgs. 7:25).

“And on the surfaces of its stays and on its panels, he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, according to the space of each, with wreaths round about” (1 Kgs. 7:36).

Do Catholics Worship Statues

 

[flyersfan1088]

However, there are people who understand Jesus’ simple words against repetitive prayers

Apparently Jesus didn’t understand His own simple words when He repeated the same exact prayer 3 times in the garden of Gethsemane. I tend to believe Jesus actually did understand His words and that it is you who fail to understand.

 

[justinthemartyr]

I have been trying to find televangelists in scripture for so long, does anyone know where they talk about televangelists? How about alter calls, where you give you life to christ once and that’s it, your saved forever. My brother in law who is a Bible alone presbyterian minister believes he can murder someone in cold blood, unjustified no self defense, and not repent and still go to heaven. i can’t find the verse that supports it.
How about the verse that says we don’t need baptism…still looking for that. What about scripture alone, where does the Bible use the terms “scripture alone as the sole authority of God on this earth”? just me and the Bible, thats it! still looking for that verse. What about the two words “faith alone” together? I see them in james 2:24 where it says we are saved by works and not by faith alone, but I don’t see the two words together anywhere else. How about the place where it says 'bible"? Or the place where it says that communion is just symbolic of the body and blood of Christ? still looking for that one.
Where does the term “church plant” occur? How about the place that says make your own church without the authority of anyone and then preach whatever you want to according to your own interpretation of scripture? I could go on for hours because the list is endless concerning things that i see in the thousands of sects pf protestant “bible” churches, where they don’t even agree with each other on matters of faith and morals. Like i do not see where god tells us that we can shut ourselves off completely from life with artificial contraception. I do see where He tells us to have a full quiver and be fruitful and multiply etc and he even kills onan for letting his seed fall to the ground.

I thank God that the exact same church has been visible since the beginning, as a light set upon a hill for all to see, and there is no mistakening it. In fact, if you lived at any time previous to the 16th century, there was no question at all where to go for the Truth on matters of faith and morals. especially in the first 382 years a.d. before there was a book called the Bible.

Praise God for one heart, one mind, One flock and One shepherd, one Lord one faith and one baptism, one God and Father of all.

I find it interesting that people today look from a reformers lens instead of from a first century, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and all the way up to the reformation, to see how VASTLY different the churches are now. The division that followed the reformation period, which Christ commanded against, and the dissenters that followed, which christ also spoke against. The true skeptics view of christian teaching and history begins in the beginning of the church and follows up to 1054, then to the reformation, then to the amazing difference in “church” we see from that point forward. if someone in the first 1500 years saw the way most non Catholic churches do “church” today and interpret scripture today, they would run away because it is a seemingly different gospel as compared to the solid and steadfast Truth spoken by the one Church for such a period of centuries from the very beginning.

 

[flyersfan1088]

• The Church is people not a building or an organization. :yup: *

Not according to the Bible. It is a visible institution. You need to read ALL of the words in the Bible, not just the ones that support your own ideas.

 

[holy_wood]

*It is not an old slogan but the truth. I do have a personal relationship with the Saviour Jesus. The Catholic Church is NOT the church that Jesus founded. The Church is people not a building or an organization. :yup: *

Well lets see what a 40 year deciple of the Apostle John has to say about your statement.

“Where the Bishop is, there let the multitude of believers be;
even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church”
-Saint Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, 1st c. A.D.

Antioch huh, is not that the town where followers of Christ were first called Christian. It just so happens that its the place where they were first called Catholic as well.

Do you believe the Church you are attending now is the Church Christ founded. Does it have Bishops, Deacons, or Preist.

If not then when did the “tradition of men” arise to remove holy offices which our Lord ordained?

If you do then who appointed them? Self-appointed leaders are frowned upon in the Bible.

Do you believe in the real presence?

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes…keep aloof from such persons”

(St. Ignatius: Letter to the Smyrnaeans; Ch. 6:2-7:1).

How much greater will your relationship with Christ grow once you come to accept this truth?

You say the Catholic Church makes up false doctrines, please tell when they came into existance please.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Not according to the Bible. It is a visible institution. You need to read ALL of the words in the Bible, not just the ones that support your own ideas.

look, you had post 222. cool.

Anyway- darn cherry picking of verses. Makes conversation with um difficult. They just don’t listen.

 

[holy_wood]

lukewarm;3422463:

On graven images:
Numbers 21: 6-9 Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them. Upon which they came to Moses, and said: We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.** And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.**

Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

Exodas 25: 16-20
And thou shalt put in the ark the testimony which I will give thee. Thou shalt make also a propitiatory of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half. Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered.


Do Catholics Worship Statues

I posted all that before but he just can’t make the distinction.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I posted all that before but he just can’t make the distinction.

Meh- thought I’d try again. You never know.

And it’s always the stubborn ones who become the ardent Catholic Apologists.

 

[panoikei]

The sin of pride hinders people from seeing the truth. I like or at least hope to think that their darkened consceinces will save them in the end. However, if someone knows the truth and then turns around to force their conscience to believe false doctrine, they have fallen into as in that is their own. Another sin would be to remain in the faith and not form your conscience to be more like Christ.

Let me look at the litany of issues:
I fail to see the logic of “biblesteve” and beleiving in the bible only. Strange.

engraven images issues just depends…on who?..you?..bible…but the bible doesn’t support you…also…most bible only believers elevate the bible to an engraven image. True…been there…done that…revert.

I now assume we’re speaking to JW’s or some faith that denies the trinity…Father-Son-Holy Spirit as 3 persons in one God…Also unscriptural…

Rosary…object used to keep count of prayer meditaions…all the while praying for the intercession of one Saint, Mary, the mother of Jesus, the THEOTOKOS, God Bearer, Mother of God…don’t mix up with creator of God. Problem is that if you reject Jesus as both God and man you obviously reject Mother of God.

Hail Mary is scripture.

The roots of JWs are rooted in those that beleived in the Trinity.
Purgatory is really a mute point and not worth the argument…just a sacred cow to add more wood on the fire…getting ready for purgatory or hell I guess. Think of Purgatory as a place of preparation. The concept is scripturally based…got into that myself as a problem before reading and understanding the basis for it.

Carrying statues around, wierd to me, but not sinful, unless it is overly done to the point that people actually worship it… Then I have a problem with it. Many people that do not form their consciences or have weak minds as Peter puts it can also fall into this kind of sin.

Catholic is a term used by Ignatius in around 107 AD to describe the Church as Catholic, Katholikos=>Catholicum=>Catholic it merely means universal…the actual name of the church founded by Christ is the Church of Christ. Another story

Pagan? If anyone is pagan it would be someone that really rejected God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. You hold on to Paganism by rejecting the universal church. You reject the faith passed down through the ages. You obviously, like me at one time, do not know Jewish and Christian history.

My mother in law calls Muslims and Catholics “pagans”. She still thinks I’m part of her religion and so refers to me as “Christian” but I used to be “pagan”…she does not know that my wife drug me back here after she also learned the things I ended up discovering. Your heart is closed to God. Many non-Catholics only learn the scriptures that prove their faith by taking them out of context, rejecting the Jewish and Christian Traditions and ignoring on purpose the contradictory scriptures to their accepted beleifs. I noticed this also in my previous faith. Catholicism is the only group that refer to themselves as Christian that incorporates all the scripture, without black lining or highlighting a particular beleif. Why? Because they’re not using the bible to prove their beleives. It, the Bible, is merely a reflection of what the Church of Christ has always taught. You have this very wrong and it is easily blown out of the water.

You will have to seek out your faith with fear and trembling. The former Catholic…you need to come Home…for your own sake. I realize you are confused, though understandably. I jumped ship too many years ago…It took me many years, 17 to realize just how off I became. But I also wasn’t catechized well back then. It wasn’t all my fault. It was the actions and false teachings of men, not God, that caused me to stumble. I hope you realize the problem with this.

BibleSteve, I could write a book without referencing anything to describe to you the rosary. The eastern Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics have the Chikoti used to pray the “Jesus Prayer”. It originated from eastern religious practices as you said. Even some Jews have used it. But does anybody realize that it’s origin is based on the fact that illiteracy was wide spread back then. It was used in many ways, different prayers. The “Jesus Prayer” predates the “Fatima Prayer”. The Fatima Prayer is a modified Jesus Prayer. The Muslims use it to recite the many different names of God. Catholics use it to meditate on the mysteries of the rosary, which is sacred scripture passages/events written about in the bible. Understanding Mary’s role in the Church is significant and needs to be researched. I had many issues with this until I learned and experienced for myself it’s benefits. The Apostes Creed is an early church creed that is a prayer, liturgical, outlining the beleifs of the early Church. The Nicen Creed is the same. Both contain the trinity. It was required to recite to 'profess" the faith. Holy Water, come on…surely you understand this one. It’s a red herring. Water of life, baptism, ancient practice that predates christianity. Baptisms were even part of some Jewish sects.

 

[panoikei]

cont’d…sorry about the jibber jabber length…
The only way to get any of this across to someone is for that person to read themselves and realize that without the early Church there would be no bible. It is important to realize that prior to the canon of scriptures there were many different canons unofficially defined in the early Church. Bishops were picking and choosing and the Councils met to solidify a universal…that word again…canon or accepted books of the bible, which by the way is rejected by most Protestants and JW’s/Mormons, because they accept Luther’s Cannon. Did you know that Luther wanted to get rid of more books than is currently contained in the remainder of Protestant canon? And did you know that the first KJV contained the so called “apocrypha” that is actually the deuteracanonical books that was verified by evidence discovered just last century?

Do your homework and take off those eye blinding glasses.

There are so many books that do a bang up job of explaining this stuff. But you have to get hold of them. How someone believes in a so called “christian” church that does not believe Jesus is both God and Man baffles me…It’s illogical. But you are in my prayers.

 

[sbanks]

BibleSteve,
It is always fun to discuss these matters with others. I believe all of us learn from this and it furthers deepen my faith & trust in GOD and in the church herself. That sometimes I may not intially understand a teaching from her or even agree at the time, but further studies and prayers help me understand and accept her teaching.
So we are now awaiting some of your replies to this. You are correct in that we may never “agree” on any of the topics. And I am fine with not agreeing. But if you are not prepared to discuss this then why are you on this board? God Bless

 

[wmscott]

And as for the rosary or prayer beads, I haven’t seen anyone support this practice with Scripture.

Most people who use the Rosary believe that the practice originated with Christianity. However, historical evidence shows that the practice of reciting prayers and counting them on a string of beads predated the beginning of Christianity. Commenting on the origin of the Rosary, The World Book Encyclopedia reports: “Prayer beads are of ancient origin, and were probably first used by the Buddhists. Both Buddhists and Muslims make use of them in their prayers.” The Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges that prayer beads were universally familiar to non-Christians for centuries and were in use long before the Catholic Church adopted the Rosary.

newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm

This is a non-Biblical practice that predates Christianity.

So in summary, the person who opened this thread (and didn’t participate) specifically asked me why I hadn’t become a Catholic and I explained I noted big differences between what the Bible taught and what the Catholic Church taught.

I think I’ve illustrated why I feel as I do and don’t plan on arguing the point with others who have a different opinion.

Bible Steve, first off I just want to say that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. The following is not to pick a fight but to explain as best I can my feelings in a kind way, Let’s take one issue at a time, the Rosary. The below text I have included was taken from this site, but I pasted it because I would like you to read it. It is very informative and puts the issue into perspective. I am sure you do not have a problem with the Lords Prayer or the Apostles creed, so that leaves the Hail Mary. Which is composed of Sacred Scripture passages. You are correct on repetitive prayer but you misunderstand the context of it. Christ did forbid meaningless repetition, but the Sacred Scripture itself prescribes prayers that involve repetition. Read below for more detail, but before you do try to understand that, the Catholic Church does not have a “Blank Check” as you have stated. The Catholic Church, the visible Church Christ instituted, through Apostolic succession, is guided by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, if guided by the Holy Spirit how can it lead anywhere but to the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit? What you are doing in this argument and several others is nit picking at matters of ones faith and devotions that are sacred and holy. So let’s look at the Blessed Mother for a moment. Christ himself, when asked if he was here to replace the old law (Ten Commandments), he stated that not one letter was to be replaced and that he was here to fulfill it. So then, if Christ is fulfilling and honoring the old law such as Honor your Mother and Father, do you think he honored his mother? I do, so the question is, how do you think he feels towards those who do not. This brings us to the point - and that is if the Catholic Church were doing things that were heretical or obviously unscriptural, then I would understand your reason to nit pick every little detail.

Meditation the Key
First we must understand that they are meditations. When Catholics recite the twelve prayers that form a decade of the rosary, they meditate on the mystery associated with that decade. If they merely recite the prayers, whether vocally or silently, they’re missing the essence of the rosary. It isn’t just a recitation of prayers, but a meditation on the grace of God. Critics, not knowing about the meditation part, imagine the rosary must be boring, uselessly repetitious, meaningless, and their criticism carries weight if you reduce the rosary to a formula. Christ forbade meaningless repetition (Matt. 6:7), but the Bible itself prescribes some prayers that involve repetition. Look at Psalms 136, which is a litany (a prayer with a recurring refrain) meant to be sung in the Jewish Temple. In the psalm the refrain is “His mercy endures forever.” Sometimes in Psalms 136 the refrain starts before a sentence is finished, meaning it is more repetitious than the rosary, though this prayer was written directly under the inspiration of God.
It is the meditation on the mysteries that gives the rosary its staying power. The Joyful Mysteries are these: the Annunciation (Luke 1:26-38), the Visitation (Luke 1:40-56), the Nativity (Luke 2:6-20), the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:21-39), and the Finding of the child Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:41-51).
Then come the Sorrowful Mysteries: the Agony in the Garden (Matt. 26:36-46), the Scourging (Matt. 27:26), the Crowing with Thorns (Matt. 27:29), the Carrying of the Cross (Luke 23:26-32), and the Crucifixion (Luke 23:33-46).
The final Mysteries are the Glorious: the Resurrection (Luke 24:1-12), the Ascension (Luke 24:50-51), the Descent of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4), the Assumption of Mary into heaven (Rev. 12), and her Coronation (cf. Rev. 12:1).
With the exception of the last two, each mystery is explicitly scriptural. True, the Assumption and Coronation of Mary are not explicitly stated in the Bible, but they are not contrary to it, so there is no reason to reject them out of hand.

 

[Yerusalyim]

I wait in vain for BibleSteve to return to this discussion. Technically, as a good JW, he shouldn’t be chatting us up anyhow.

 

[vocatio]

Not according to the Bible. It is a visible institution. You need to read ALL of the words in the Bible, not just the ones that support your own ideas.

Could you tell us where any 1st or 2st century church Building is historically built? You obviosly need to GOOGLE “catecombs”. Yea it was visibly Catholic. Look at the writing and art on the walls of these great forgotten places where holy people were placed. A new one was discovered this past year while we were converting from a bible only faith.

 

[vocatio]

I got it…
“1. An there on the last days of John, where he laith the final pages of his KJV he erected with all the disciples the first building block of the church of Ephesus. 2. And this place where he left the woman who was referedt to as just another woman, who happened give birth to Jesus, a great building ws erected. 3. And she would do well to learn to be a holy person, for wide is the gate and straight is the path that leads to distruction. 4. And there upon the corner stone set in the ground by Peter, James and John the first physical sign of the New Testament church was born and became known as the CHURCH.”

Notice the verse numbers. KJV too. And we know that Mary may or may not have made it to heaven, according to one preacher on Preachers Files. He said I’ll see when he gets there…get that, Mary may not get there, but he would most certainly get there. [true story] We just need to print it off and bury in a cave.

 

[PaulDupre]

I’m actually surprised at the question. And let me say emphatically, I mean absolutely no disrespect to you or your faith.

The context is that someone asked when I was going to join the Catholic Church.

I responded that when I compare the Bible vs. the Teachings of the Catholic Church I see huge differences.

RickO spun out this thread to discuss the topic.

Since Catholics don’t believe in Sola Scriptura, why would you question this position?

But to begin a discussion, the list is so very long.

Where can I read about “Holy Water” with people dipping their fingers into it and making the sign of the cross in the Bible?

Where in the bible can I read about how only the 144,000 can take communion, while the “great crowd” cannot?

 

[PaulDupre]

Where in the bible can I read about the building of “Kingdom Halls”?

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
Where can I read about “Holy Water” with people dipping their fingers into it and making the sign of the cross in the Bible?**

In the same place you read about invitation hymns, altar calls, hymnals, and revivals.

 

[vocatio]

Where can I read about turning on the light switch or toilets for that matter. Where are the authorization for instrumental music? Can you show me where it says to use a mice? Or how about wearing a suit and tie. We should were tunics, don’t you think.

Had to come back for more.
Where does it say you can divorce and remarry?
Where does it say women can speak in the worship?
Where does it say for women to wear stockings or pearls or makeup?
Your question is so rediculous.
How about having a kitchen? [we argued that on when I was a Fundamentalist.]
Show me where a sound system is authorized, we could do without it.
Where are the big picture screens? The overhead projectors?
How about carpet?
Central Heating and Airconditioning?

 

[rinnie]

I havent read any of the other responses, but i will try to make mine short and sweet. The difference between Catholic teaching and the bible are none. Everything that is in the bible is in the Catholic Church, Now here is where the problem starts, all that is in the CC is not in the bible. If you read the bible it tells you that. The CC was here long before the bible. Thats why we have Tradition, many things were passed on by word of mouth. Just like Jesus did, he preached and taught his disciples to spread the word. not by a bible but by word of mouth. That is what the CC is it is not a bible it is a teacher, The same as Christ and his disciples were.