Differences between Mormon Missions and Catholic Missions

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Sorry for skipping over that. I am writing about some of the cultural variances of Pacific Island LDS people. You can search the boards for this. I am sure you are acquainted with internet research techniques, and some of the other boards that I frequent, even if you refuse to check them out.
I understand, LJ…but…

first, you claimed that you had ‘read somewhere,’ not that you had written somewhere. As well…with all due respect, it’s not the job of your readers to track down your references.

When you make a claim, it’s your job to support it. If you claim a reference, it is your job to provide it. When you make a claim that you have read something somewhere, it is your job to tell us where.

That is, after all, standard practice in academia, science…and everywhere else.

Including internet debate forums.
 
Paul,

I absolutely agree w/ dianaiad. Introducing this as representative of "Mormon Missions’ is at the very least inappropriate. and we should quickly move on to disingenuous and beyond. So I’ll second the question, "What in the world were you THINKING???.

An besides, did you *really *want to throw that stone?

-kc
Paul, if these two missionaries did what they were accused of, they deserve everything they get and more.

Now.

Are you going to use this example of wrongdoing by a pair of LDS missionaries to somehow prove that all Mormon missionaries, and LDS missionary work, is evil/selfish/wrong/ pick one?

Be very, very, very careful about what you post next. …
In other words…

What in the world were you THINKING???
 
Dang LJ,

You’re “writing” about this? What does that mean? Are you writing a paper? You need to cite your sources a little better than *“Hey dude, you can search the boards for this, it’s out there, really, even if you don’t check it out”. *

By the way, you’re writing about “cultural variances of Pacific Island LDS people” ?
“Pacific Island People” is a pretty vast subject area. you got it narrowed down to a thesis?

-kc
Sorry for skipping over that. I am writing about some of the cultural variances of Pacific Island LDS people. You can search the boards for this. I am sure you are acquainted with internet research techniques, and some of the other boards that I frequent, even if you refuse to check them out.
 
[intense sarcasm] Of course not, Rebecca. [/intense sarcasm]

…and discussing those differences by saying that Catholic missions are all about helping the poor all over the place—but NOT aimed at getting Catholic converts, whereas Mormon missionaries only help Mormons, or if they help anybody else, it’s a deceitful tactic meant only to attract new converts…that’s not attacking AT all, is it?
I do agree that it is not fair to characterize all LDS missionary activity as proselyting, but by far the majority of it is.

People have a perception that LDS help people only in order to create an opportunity to hand them a Book of Mormon, or invite them to church. It is a perception that LDS themselves create, by how they live and act. Also by what your church teaches, which includes, encouraging members to create these opportunities.

Our missions exist to help people. Christ did not teach us that we should feed the hungry, clothe the poor or provide support for widows, in order to baptize them. He taught we do these things in order that they know God’s love.

The Christian mission is to be God’s presence in the world.
 
Paul,

"What in the world were you THINKING???.
I was thinking that I am tired of Mormons constantly bringing up the priest sex scandals and telling me how morally superior they are to everyone else. It ain’t necessarily so. They have their embarrasing moments just as we all do.

Perhaps I should not have bothered to post it…
 
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Dianaiad:
Be very, very, very careful about what you post next. …
Is that a threat?
 
gurneyhalleck: I’ve been thinking on your posts for a few days. Here in the Salt Lake Diocese, we have no Catholics who are proselytizing. No one is going door to door. No one is handing out pamphlets or Bibles. Yet, every year, hundreds of adults are baptized. (This past Easter we had about 600 adult baptisms.)

It is the Holy Spirit who converts people. Most people, like myself, just showed up one day at a Catholic parish. Seeking God, and asking questions. It is the Holy Spirit who led us there. This I can tell you for certain, from my own experience, and that of the RCIA classes I’m involved with since my conversion.

It is the same throughout the US, where hundreds of thousands of adults are baptized every year. Yet, no proselytizing!
 
I was thinking that I am tired of Mormons constantly bringing up the priest sex scandals and telling me how morally superior they are to everyone else. It ain’t necessarily so. They have their embarrasing moments just as we all do.

Perhaps I should not have bothered to post it…
No, you should “not have bothered to post it…” and your attempt here to blame Mormons for your own lack of courtesy isn’t helping your cause any.

Of course, do feel free to show us anywhere on this thread where any Mormon has mentioned “Priest sex scandals,” or even where it is the MORMONS who are guilty of telling people how morally superior they are. For that matter, do, please, go through all 5000+ of my posts and show me where I have EVER brought up the ‘priest sex scandals’ in any way critical of Catholicism. I don’t think that Z has, either.
 
And here is my reply to your point #3:
  1. The doctrine of agency is entirely predicated on the supposition that human freedom is limited if divine power moves the human will.
Actually, Mormonism doesn’t specifically say that.
As a result of this assumption, it makes grace contingent upon human free acts, rather than seeing grace as the source of freedom itself.
Apart from being a somewhat meaningless assertion, it is not true. Grace is not “contingent on freewill;” the acceptance of grace is “contingent on freewill”. Grace is grace; God provides the grace for all to accept or reject as they choose. That is also consistent with Catholic doctrine. What you have stated is actually Protestant doctrine. I thought you were Catholic. Since when did you become Protestant? :confused:
The unexamined assumption of LDS soteriology, that salvation by grace alone involves God “forcing” human beings to act as they do, requires the blasphemous metaphysical presupposition that the touch of God is a harmful, exterior imposition upon the will.
I don’t know where you got all of this bull from. In Mormonism salvation is by “grace alone,” only that man must accept that “grace” by a voluntary act, which is the same as Catholic doctrine.
In fact, the Creator moves his creatures in ways that are intrinsic to the creatures themselves, without violence, without destruction of freedom, and yet entirely by God’s power and gift as a primary, all-encompassing cause.
Are you trying to pull wool over our eyes or something?
 
well, at the least the parts that copied the Bible.

But tell you what, I will go to Bethlehem, and you go to Zerahemla and we’ll see who gets to the destination first…would you like a head start?
Still waiting…
 
Again, the biggest difference between LDS and Catholic Missions is that the majority of LDS missionaries are doing what is expected as a break between freshman and sophomore years of college. They go for a couple of years to a place that has been deemed safe, get done, go on with their lives, etc.

Catholic Missionaries make a life-commitment. They go where it is not safe. They spend their LIVES (not a two-year college break) preaching the Gospel. There is no “go home in a few months, get married, get a good job, drive a nice car…”

I say again, would you like to compare the number of Catholic Missionaries thru history have lost their lives with the few LDS missionaries that lost theirs?

THAT is the biggest difference
 
lol…this coming from Diana, who always blames the conduct of Catholics for HER lack of courtesy
LOL. And I presented a reason why their behavior was contrary to modern LDS cultural norms. She responded by getting angry because I didn’t live down to her expectations for me. 🤷
 
RebeccaJ,

That is amazing about the number of converts. We almost moved to S LC, and if we did, we would have been parishioners at the Madeleine. I am a wimpy Northwesterner and don’t want to handle more temperate or snowy weather.

We came back home. My son’s first grade teacher is from there. Her family and friends were always being pressured to listen to Mormon teachings. She said they lived as if in an enclosure. I called a Catholic pastor in this one town I really thought was so beautiful. I asked if there was the possibiltiy my children would be prosletyzed and he said yes, so we didn’t go.

This past year during the media’s attempt to discredit the Catholic Church – a monsignor in Wisconsin said even one of his letters were obtained, rewritten and deliberately misconstrued and used by the media – this past year saw among the greatest church attendance and people coming into the Church. It is the Holy Spirit who is bringing them in.

I am beginning to think people are looking at the Holy Spirit as some kind of air balloon. It filled the Apostles and they went out…but then the Holy Spirit dissipated after the last apostles even though they were choosing their bishops and other successors…like someone taking the plug out of the balloon and letting all the air out.
It is the Holy Spirit Who is working through the successors to the Apostles. Everyone is free…and everyone, no matter their rank, can become apostate and give scandal.

But yes, Catholic missionaries live out the gospel in serving Christ in others. When people finally ask you why you are doing this, then you say you are doing this in the name of Jesus Christ. People are free. God loves us.

We find our self-esteem not in our works or our own ‘perfections’ but in the reality that Jesus Christ loves us. We find our worth not in what we do but in who we are.

I came there to be servant, to put myself beneath the Africans and serve them. I could hardly speak too many words the time I was there. And the other point is that every human being has something to contribute in how they know Jesus Christ. So I also went there to learn something of God from the African people and I did.

God said ‘I Am Who Am’…this is the state of being. Just being among the people in Christ’s loving presence can be the greatest prosletyzer.
 
RebeccaJ,

That is amazing about the number of converts. We almost moved to S LC, and if we did, we would have been parishioners at the Madeleine. I am a wimpy Northwesterner and don’t want to handle more temperate or snowy weather.

We came back home. My son’s first grade teacher is from there. Her family and friends were always being pressured to listen to Mormon teachings. She said they lived as if in an enclosure. I called a Catholic pastor in this one town I really thought was so beautiful. I asked if there was the possibiltiy my children would be prosletyzed and he said yes, so we didn’t go.

This past year during the media’s attempt to discredit the Catholic Church – a monsignor in Wisconsin said even one of his letters were obtained, rewritten and deliberately misconstrued and used by the media – this past year saw among the greatest church attendance and people coming into the Church. It is the Holy Spirit who is bringing them in.

I am beginning to think people are looking at the Holy Spirit as some kind of air balloon. It filled the Apostles and they went out…but then the Holy Spirit dissipated after the last apostles even though they were choosing their bishops and other successors…like someone taking the plug out of the balloon and letting all the air out.
It is the Holy Spirit Who is working through the successors to the Apostles. Everyone is free…and everyone, no matter their rank, can become apostate and give scandal.

But yes, Catholic missionaries live out the gospel in serving Christ in others. When people finally ask you why you are doing this, then you say you are doing this in the name of Jesus Christ. People are free. God loves us.

We find our self-esteem not in our works or our own ‘perfections’ but in the reality that Jesus Christ loves us. We find our worth not in what we do but in who we are.

I came there to be servant, to put myself beneath the Africans and serve them. I could hardly speak too many words the time I was there. And the other point is that every human being has something to contribute in how they know Jesus Christ. So I also went there to learn something of God from the African people and I did.

God said ‘I Am Who Am’…this is the state of being. Just being among the people in Christ’s loving presence can be the greatest prosletyzer.
Yes, it is the “job” of a Christian to see in every person their true destiny, which is Jesus Christ. Without Him, we are left on our own. He is our Hope. He gave to the world many gifts, Himself, the Church, the Sacraments and not least of all, the Holy Spirit. These gifts are not perishable, and they do not fade, as they are renewed by Him and through Him.

This is what people come seeking, God, all powerful and mighty, whose Love for all is endless. He calls all to Himself, always. The Holy Spirit searches the hearts of all men, and brings them to conversion. This is not something that ended, and it never will, until Jesus comes again.

The SL Diocese started out as a mission diocese. We’re no longer a mission diocese, but we still have need of missions, which are here. As people come into the church here, the majority have not had a Christian baptism. It is one reason why we have so many baptisms, as compared to some areas of the US where Christians are coming into full union with the Church.

Today, at the Madeleine, we had a visiting deacon from the Gallup Diocese. They are a mission diocese and in need of our support!
 
So true, Rebecca…

The construct of the Catholic Church is the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus…the alpha and omega, and the so thrust of our faith…
 
Catholic Missions deserve a great deal of credit for their service, but you are being a bit harsh on the LDS Missionaries.
  • they don’t represent the sum total of all service work by LDS
  • both Catholic and LDS have in common the goal to bring Christ to the unchurched and the needy,
If it’s a contest for serving food and comfort to non-church members, the Catholics win hands down

If it’s a contest to save a soul, or turn an life around through Christ and support from the church, the LDS Missionaries win hands down. You could argue they want to teach somehone “how to fish” instead of just giving free fish.
 
  • they don’t represent the sum total of all service work by LDS
Catholic missions don’t represent the sum total of all service work by Catholics.
  • both Catholic and LDS have in common the goal to bring Christ to the unchurched and the needy,
LDS proselytize those who have already been brought to Christ and are indeed, “churched”.
 
Soren

I am responding to the second and third numbered points of your August 6 post #122. Your post kind of knocked the wind out of me for a bit. Talk about a different worldview.

Of course, I am neither a professional theologian like you nor as knowledgeable about religion as are many who post here at CAF. So, I will offer just a bit of personal experience and observation and hope that I do not appear crackpot. To start, I acknowledge that you understand at least as well as I the Law of Opposition and the doctrine of agency which you are criticizing.

By the time of my baptism (as an adult), I had inadvertently memorized 2 Nephi 2. Your second and third points go to the heart of my conversion from a previous life of atheism (not agnosticism), which came about, when no other Christian denomination lit a flicker for me, because, unlike other denominations and scriptures, I found the Latter-day Saints and the Book of Mormon to HAVE A GRIP ON REALITY. To this day, although I am older now and so have a broader religious “appreciation”, I read the Bible only for home teaching and late Saturday night if it is being studied in that week’s Sunday School. (And so I am not the best of Mormons.)

To me, the Book of Mormon teaches the way things are, as opposed to the way men (understandably) might wish things to be. More importantly, to me, the Book of Mormon teaches that the way things are is as they “must needs be” if our mortal lives are to be more than shadowboxing. Obviously, there can be important differences between what men need and what they would prefer. That becomes a problem for men if, but only if, they fantasize that what they prefer is what they need in a circumstance where preference and need in fact diverge. While I want nothing less than to give offense or to give an appearance of disrespect, and I am in fact respectful, I feel certain that your points 2 and 3 and your church and your religion all reflect such a fantasy – they lack a grip on reality.

Your point 2 comments that the Law of Opposition holds that “goodness does not hold primary sway over existence, but shares that status with evil.” I am not sure that you are doctrinally correct about that, but it appears to me that your point is not unreasonable on its face. However, assuming arguendo that you are correct, it is of little consequence. If, as ordinary human experience shows, both good and evil are found in mortal men and in their world, and good does NOT always triumph over evil, then good does not hold complete sway. If good does not hold complete sway, then it is of little consequence whether it is good or evil that holds “primary” sway or whether (in accord with my intuition) they share “parity.” Thus, so long as neither good nor evil holds complete sway, the “good/evil dualism” of the Law of Opposition is, at worst, sufficiently accurate so as to afford men a good grip on reality.

continued with next post
 
In your point 3, you remark insightfully as to the doctrine of agency that: “The unexamined assumption of LDS soteriology, that salvation by grace alone involves God ‘forcing’ human beings to act as they do, requires the blasphemous metaphysical presupposition that the touch of God is a harmful, exterior imposition upon the will. In fact, the Creator moves his creatures in ways that are intrinsic to the creatures themselves, without violence, without destruction of freedom.]”

My stake like many others (most others?), the week of Pioneer Day, holds for the youth (ages 14 to 17) a reenactment of the trek by handcart. As you may know, but perhaps others here at CAF might not know, the youth are divided into “families” and for several days each family pulls a loaded handcart over rough, sometimes hilly and sometimes rocky terrain. They camp out in the open each night. On the last day, Pioneer Day, they arrive at the rural site of the stake Pioneer Day celebration, somewhat rough for the wear, but cheered by the assembled stake. This experience gives the youth a clue about the real 1,000+ mile Mormon Trail of the 19th century.

One of the Young Men gave a Sacrament Meeting talk the next day about the trek reenactment. I was impressed that this 16 year old Priest’s talk was as evocative and insightful as I would expect from a person much older. I believe that his talk was the way that the Holy Ghost showed me how I might respond to you in a constructive fashion. In any case, I am going to synopsize what he said as to one episode during the trek reenactment.

Rocky hills are the bane of handcarts. As the steepness of a slope increases arithmetically, the difficulty of moving the handcart increases exponentially. On rocky slopes, the wooden wagon wheels (familiar from Westerns) can lose traction, causing the handcart to slip backwards or to pivot. On the third day, the four handcarts came to a point where the trail led up the steepest rocky hill on the trek. At that point, the adults who were along to supervise (but not help), had all of the Young Men leave the handcarts. They had come to the Women’s Pull, and the Young Women would pull the handcarts up the hill by themselves. The Young Women struggled to get the handcarts, one at the time, up the hill. There were the setbacks and stumblings that were to be expected. Some of the Young Women were groaning and more than one cried. Later, they all testified that they prayed to have just a fraction of the strength of the widows who pulled handcarts the length of the Mormon Trail and that, for every one of them, their prayers were answered. As a result, they were able, just barely, to get all four handcarts to the top of the hill.

The young Priest who gave the talk said that, with respect to the Women’s Pull, two specific things impressed him the most. First, after the Young Women got the first handcart to the top of the hill, he expected to see them fall to the ground and rest for a time. Instead, they immediately came back down the hill for the second handcart. They seemed to be stronger than before. Second, he saw two of the adult men who had accompanied the youth, who were fathers of two of the Young Women, with tears streaming down their faces. Nonetheless, the fathers remained still because they were possessed of the wisdom to know that, if a single male hand had pulled, or a single male shoulder had pushed, then there would have been a harmful, exterior imposition upon the will, with violence to the spirit and destruction of freedom.

Murdock

P.S. Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully to my previous post.
 
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