Differences between Sunni and Shiite muslims?

[jakasaki]

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I’m not sure where you get this figure of 6 months–though I’m not sure it’s even relevance. Abu Bakr was “only in charge for 2 years” because of his death–due to natural causes. Upon his death he selected his successor. From what I can understand, Ali pledged allegiance to both Abu Bakr and his successor.

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First there is this hadith:

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 61: Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:

**Allah’s Apostle said, “Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry.” **

Then there is this hadith:

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325: Narrated 'Aisha: (mother of the believers)

After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah’s Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah’s Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him.

Abu Bakr said to her, “Allah’s Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity).”

**Fatima, the daughter of Allah’s Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah’s Apostle. **

She used to ask Abu Bakr for her share from the property of Allah’s Apostle which he left at Khaibar, and Fadak, and his property at Medina (devoted for charity). Abu Bakr refused to give her that property and said, “I will not leave anything Allah’s Apostle used to do, because I am afraid that if I left something from the Prophet’s tradition, then I would go astray.”

(Later on) Umar gave the Prophet’s property (of Sadaqa) at Medina to 'Ali and 'Abbas, but he withheld the properties of Khaibar and Fadak in his custody and said, “These two properties are the Sadaqa which Allah’s Apostle used to use for his expenditures and urgent needs. Now their management is to be entrusted to the ruler.” (Az-Zuhrl said, “They have been managed in this way till today.”)

Then there is THIS hadith:

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**So Abu Bakr refused to hand over anything from it to Fatima who got angry with Abu Bakr for this reason. **

**She forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life. She lived for six months after the death of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him).

When she died, her husband. 'Ali b. Abu Talib, buried her at night.

He did not inform Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself.

During the lifetime of Fatima, 'All received (special) regard from the people.

After she had died, he felt estrangement in the faces of the people towards him.

So he <<<----- Ali …sought to make peace with Abu Bakr and offer his allegiance to him. **

He had not yet owed allegiance to him as Caliph during these months.

…

Muslim Book #019, Hadith #4353

Don’t you read your own islamic history through your hadiths?

 

[Sister_Amy]

First there is this hadith:

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 61: Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:

Okay, this one is well-known. But not exactly applicable, as you’re not reading it in its proper context. Regardless…

Then there is this hadith:

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325: Narrated 'Aisha: (mother of the believers)…

This one is verified.

Then there is THIS hadith:

…

**So Abu Bakr refused to hand over anything from it to Fatima who got angry with Abu Bakr for this reason. **

**She forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life. She lived for six months after the death of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him).

When she died, her husband. 'Ali b. Abu Talib, buried her at night.

He did not inform Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself.

During the lifetime of Fatima, 'All received (special) regard from the people.

After she had died, he felt estrangement in the faces of the people towards him.

So he <<<----- Ali …sought to make peace with Abu Bakr and offer his allegiance to him. **

He had not yet owed allegiance to him as Caliph during these months.

…

Muslim Book #019, Hadith #4353

This one is not verified. Perhaps you’ve listed by mistake the wrong reference. More or less everything quoted above (although it seems a collage of various ahadith) seems accurate as best I can tell. But I did read hadith #4352 to interesting end:

She lived for six months after the death of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). When she died, her husband. 'Ali b. Abu Talib, buried her at night. He did not inform Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself. During the lifetime of Fatima, 'All received (special) regard from the people. After she had died, he felt estrangement in the faces of the people towards him. So he sought to make peace with Abu Bakr and offer his allegiance to him. He had not yet owed allegiance to him as Caliph during these months. He sent a person to Abu Bakr requesting him to visit him unaccompanied by anyone (disapproving the presence of Umar). 'Umar said to Abu Bakr: BY Allah, you will not visit them alone. Abu Bakr said: What will they do to me? By Allah, I will visit them. And he did pay them a visit alone. 'All recited Tashahhud (as it is done in the beginning of a religious sermon) ; then said: We recognise your moral excellence and what Allah has bestowed upon you. We do not envy the favour (i. e. the Catiphate) which Allah nas conferred upon you; but you have done it (assumed the position of Caliph) alone (without consulting us), and we thought we had a right (to be consulted) on account of our kinship with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He continued to talk to Abu Bakr (in this vein) until the latter’s eyes welled up with tears. Then Abu Bakr spoke and said: By Allah, in Whose Hand is my life, the kinship of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) is dearer to me than the kinship of my own people.** As regards the dispute that has arisen between you and me about these properties, I have not deviated from the right course and I have not given up doing about them what the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to do.** So 'Ali said to Abu Bakr: This aftetnoon is (fixed) for (swearing) allegiance (to you). So when Abu Bakr had finished his Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and recited Tashahhud, and described the status of 'Ali, his delay in swearing allegiance and the excuse which lie had offered to him (for this delay). (After this) he asked for God’s forgiveness. Then 'Ali b. Abu Talib recited the Tashahhud. extolled the merits of Abu Bakr and (said that) his action was nott prompted by any jealousy of Abu Bakr on his part or his refusal to accept the high position which Allah had conferred upon him, (adding: ) But we were of the opinion that we should have a share in the government, but the matter had been decided without taking us into confidence, and this displeased us. (Hence the delay in offering allegiance. The Muslims were pleased with this (explanation) and they said: You have done the right thing. The Muslims were (again) favourably inclined to 'Ali since he adopted the proper course of action.

That was interesting to read as it described Ali’s reason for not giving his allegiance to Abu Bakr before then. When Abu Bakr was elected to rule the Muslim, Ali was in fact not “consulted,” as he was not present at the gathering. The reason for his absence was that he sought to prepare the body of Muhammad (saws) for burial as a more urgent matter. He was not deliberately not uninvited or anything of that sort.

So thanks for bringing the 6 months matter to my attention (for I had mistakenly thought it was 3 months or less.)

Don’t you read your own islamic history through your hadiths?

Actually I don’t. I read the ahadith for different reasons, usually from a point of view of jurisprudence, to determine the legal rulings from them. And that’s more my background anyway. I am awfully weak in my understandings of Islamic history, especially after the death of Muhammad. While I have spent some time studying the life and biography of the Prophet, I haven’t t spenmuch time at all studying subsequent history, in ahadith and otherwise. Moreover, reading the ahadith in isolation is not a good way to comprehensively understand any subject, as one might be led to neglect the context of their narration and transmission.

 

[Sister_Amy]

And you know what Amy, Arabic names & spelling don’t come easy to your average American <----- ME!!!

It was a minor correction, not a heavy-handed rebuke. Many names and spellings and terms don’t come easy to me as well, but I’m happy to improve myself.

 

[Sister_Amy]

And yet we all learned something today. Good job, team.

Sister Amy, it’s good to see you back around these parts.

Thanks.

 

[jakasaki]

Okay, this one is well-known. But not exactly applicable, as you’re not reading it in its proper context. Regardless…

This one is verified.

This one is not verified. Perhaps you’ve listed by mistake the wrong reference. More or less everything quoted above (although it seems a collage of various ahadith) seems accurate as best I can tell. But I did read hadith #4352 to interesting end:

Actually I don’t. I read the ahadith for different reasons, usually from a point of view of jurisprudence, to determine the legal rulings from them. And that’s more my background anyway. I am awfully weak in my understandings of Islamic history, especially after the death of Muhammad. While I have spent some time studying the life and biography of the Prophet, I haven’t t spenmuch time at all studying subsequent history, in ahadith and otherwise. Moreover, reading the ahadith in isolation is not a good way to comprehensively understand any subject, as one might be led to neglect the context of their narration and transmission.

**Correction to my 4353 hadith **

It is Muslim Book 19 Jihad & Expedition #4352

**4352 **

It is narrated on the authority of Urwa b. Zubair who narrated from A’isha that she informed him that Fatima, daughter of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), sent someone to Abu Bakr to demand from him her share of the legacy left by the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) from what Allah had bestowed upon him at Medina and Fadak and what was left from one-filth of the income (annually received) from Khaibar.

Abu Bakr said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." The household of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) will live on the income from these properties, but, by Allah, I will not change the charity of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) from the condition in which it was in his own time.

I will do the same with it as the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upun him) himself used to do. So Abu Bakr refused to hand over anything from it to Fatima who got angry with Abu Bakr for this reason.

She forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life. She lived for six months after the death of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). When she died, her husband. 'Ali b. Abu Talib, buried her at night. He did not inform Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself.

During the lifetime of Fatima, 'All received (special) regard from the people. After she had died, he felt estrangement in the faces of the people towards him.

So he sought to make peace with Abu Bakr and offer his allegiance to him. **He had not yet owed allegiance to him as Caliph during these months. **

He sent a person to Abu Bakr requesting him to visit him unaccompanied by anyone (disapproving the presence of Umar). 'Umar said to Abu Bakr: BY Allah, you will not visit them alone. Abu Bakr said: What will they do to me? By Allah, I will visit them. And he did pay them a visit alone. 'All recited Tashahhud (as it is done in the beginning of a religious sermon) ; then said: We recognise your moral excellence and what Allah has bestowed upon you. We do not envy the favour (i. e. the Catiphate) which Allah nas conferred upon you; but you have done it (assumed the position of Caliph) alone (without consulting us), and we thought we had a right (to be consulted) on account of our kinship with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He continued to talk to Abu Bakr (in this vein) until the latter’s eyes welled up with tears. Then Abd Bakr spoke and said: By Allah, in Whose Hand is my life, the kinship of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) is dearer to me than the kinship of my own people. As regards the dispute that has arisen between you and me about these properties, I have not deviated from the right course and I have not given up doing about them what the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to do. So 'Ali said to Abu Bakr: This aftetnoon is (fixed) for (swearing) allegiance (to you). So when Abu Bakr had finished his Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and recited Tashahhud, and described the status of 'Ali, his delay in swearing allegiance and the excuse which lie had offered to him (for this delay). (After this) he asked for God’s forgiveness. Then 'Ali b. Abu Talib recited the Tashahhud. extolled the merits of Abu Bakr and (said that) his action was nott prompted by any jealousy of Abu Bakr on his part or his refusal to accept the high position which Allah had conferred upon him, (adding: ) But we were of the opinion that we should have a share in the government, but the matter had been decided without taking us into confidence, and this displeased us. (Hence the delay in offering allegiance. The Muslims were pleased with this (explanation) and they said: You have done the right thing. The Muslims were (again) favourably inclined to 'Ali since he adopted the proper course of action.

searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=019&translator=2&start=0&number=4352#4352

 

[jakasaki]

We have only one Shia muslim poster here on CAF and I do wish that he would come back and reply to this. He’s been gone for a while

Famdigy - Where are youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu???

 

[famdigy]

Thanks for all replies so far. Kadaveri, thank you for the indepth reply on the other thread (posts 6-9). Now I see that the division is more political than theological between Sunni and Shiite.

Jean

Shia means partisan, in the early days they were known as Shia-tu-Ali (The partisans of Ali) but over time, the title has been shortened to Shia. Other common names for Shia include (Rafidha) which means the rejectors (more on this later) and 12er imamis Shias because Shia Muslims believe in a succession of twelve divinely appointed Imams who are the guardians of the faith after the prophet passed away.

In Shia Theology, Allah has always appointed perfect, and sinless individuals to guide mankind, known as Imams, and that the world is never without a divinely appointed guide. Adam was the very first Imam and he was followed by others such as Abraham, Isac, Ishmael, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. Peace and blessings on them all. The position of the Imam is not just a political leader but a spiritual leader as well, he is God’s representative on earth who carries out His legislative will. In this context, revolt against the Imam is also a revolt against God. This concept of imamat (divine leadership) is unique to the Shia school of thought and is one of the fundamental principles of the faith.

The difference between the two sects is as much theological as it is political and the issue of Ali’s (as) succession is no exception. Shia Muslims believe Ali should have been the first successor not because of his blood relation to the Prophet (pbuh&hf) but because Allah and the Prophet appointed him as successor, Ali is the first Imam after the prophet, therefore on principle, it is not up to the people to decide on an issue which is already decided on and legislated by the Allah and his Prophet.

The Shia do not accept the authority of those people who revolted against the Prophet (pbuh&hf), this means we also reject them as religious authorities, we reject their narrations and teachings as well. This is why in some circles shias are refereed to as the rejectors (Al-Rafidha). It’s meant to be a derogatory name but most Shias I know including myself are proud to be called Rafidha.

Generally speaking, shias don’t accept the traditional 6 authentic hadith collections of the Sunnis as authoritative because many of the narrators in those collections including the authors (Bukhair, Muslim, Ahmad, ect) nursed grudges against Imam Ali (as).

The division between the two sects was sealed with the martydom of Imam Hussein (as), the 3rd Shia Imam and grandson of the Prophet Muhammad by the sunni khalif Yazid at the plains of Karbala in Iraq. Shia Muslims commemorate Hussein’s death during the first 10 days of every year, the commemoration climax on the 10th day known as Ashura where Shia Muslims take to the streets and re-create the battle and the characters, and usually also includes self flagellation with sharp blades and chains in sorrow for not being there to help their imam and to feel his pain.

The Ashura processions draw a lot criticism from Sunnis as being anti-islamic and embarrassing. And in places like Pakistan and Iraq the event draws a lot of people from all over the country and the world and is a prime target for terrorist attacks.

There are is a lot of emphasis on the Ahlul-Bayt (members of the prophet’s household) in Shia theology, these include Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussein, and the 9 Imams from Hussein’s lineage because they are the sources of Shia theology. In fact, the Quran and the Ahlul-Bayt are the two most foremost authorities for Shias. On the other hand, Sunnis believe the Qur’an and the Sunnah (prophetic traditions) as two foremost authorities.

 

[planten]

famdigy has truely and correctly described the position of Shias and Sunnis. That is how it started and that is where it stands today.

 

[abucs]

Differences in practice have arisen over the centuries, including some observances for the Shi’a which are not based in the authentic sunnah (way) of Muhammad, to which Sunnis adhere. One example is the observance of the martyrdom of Imam Hussayn, the grandson of the Prophet Muhammad. It’s like an intense yearly funeral celebration, with moaning and such, even though such behaviors were discouraged or even forbidden by Muhammad himself (saws.)

And there are other similarly minor differences in practices, and even a few doctrinal differences which have crept in over the centuries, and some which have fractured even the Shi’a unity–so you will find a variety of Shi’a sects.

But for the most part you couldn’t tell one Muslim from another by looking at them, or even watching them pray, unless you really knew what you were looking for.

Thankyou. Are there any current moves for reconciliation between the two groups ?