O
Ora_et_Labora_1
Guest
Are the any (noticible) differences in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom between EO and EC? If so, what are they?
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D
Diak
Guest
The commemoration of the Pope in the Litanies would be the most obvious. After that perhaps some differences in translation of specific prayers, and some litanies longer or ommitted between various Orthodox and Greek Catholic usages (this even varies between various specific Orthodox usages). The basic structure of the Liturgy is identical.
M
Moscati
Guest
Prayers for the pope would be a big one, I think. In the Litany of Peace, for example,
EC’s (Byzantine) reads:
“For our holy universal Supreme Pontiff N . . ., the Pope of Rome, for our most Reverend Archbishop and Metropolitan N . . . , for our God-loving Bishop N . . ., for the venerable priesthood, the diaconate in Christ, for all clergy and the people, let us pray to the Lord.”
EO’s:
“For our Archbishop (Name), our Bishop (Name), the honorable presbyters, the deacons in the service of Christ, and all the clergy and laity, let us pray to the Lord.”
I’m sure there are other differences, that someone from the Eastern tradition could say more about than me.
EC’s (Byzantine) reads:
“For our holy universal Supreme Pontiff N . . ., the Pope of Rome, for our most Reverend Archbishop and Metropolitan N . . . , for our God-loving Bishop N . . ., for the venerable priesthood, the diaconate in Christ, for all clergy and the people, let us pray to the Lord.”
EO’s:
“For our Archbishop (Name), our Bishop (Name), the honorable presbyters, the deacons in the service of Christ, and all the clergy and laity, let us pray to the Lord.”
I’m sure there are other differences, that someone from the Eastern tradition could say more about than me.
A
Aramis
Guest
The English and Spanish vary widely due to different translators and different protocols of translation.Are the any (noticible) differences in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom between EO and EC? If so, what are they?
The Tonal Melodies of the Octoechos vary. Since writing them down seems mostly a 19th-20th C idea, they have drifted widely, and some drift occurred post-union.
The addition of the pope to the litanies, as a versicle:
Deacon For our holy father (Name), Pope of Rome, let us pray to the Lord.
All Lord, have Mercy.
Note that the 2009 Melkite English does NOT have the papal commemoration here, the Ruthenian does, and I’ve seen it in some other ones.
The addition of the Pope to the hierarchical commemorations following the Hirmos:
Ruthenian:
Celebrant Among the first, O Lord, remember our holy father (Name), Pope of Rome, our most reverend Metropolitan (Name), our God-loving bishop (Name). Preserve them for your holy churches in peace, safety, honor, and health for many years as they faithfully impart the word of your truth.
All And remember all your people.
Melkite:
Priest: First, Lord, remember our Father N. Pope of Rome, our Most Blessed Patriarch N., our Father and (Arch)bishop N. Graciously bestow them to Your holy Churches in peace, safety, honor, health, long life, rightly dispensing the word
of Your truth.
In monasteries, the Superior is mentioned here:
For our Father and Superior, the Priest N.
The Deacon (from the Holy Doors, facing the people):
Deacon: And for the Priest N. who offers these holy gifts;
The Deacon (or in his absence, the Priest) continues:
For our government, protected by God; for the salvation and help of the people here present; for those whom each of us has in mind; and for all men and women.
All: Remember all men and women.
(Ruthenian: 2006 Divine Liturgies book; Melkite: 2009 “experimental” promulgation PDF; underlining mine, color original in both.)
Many Catholic liturgies omit certain versicles of the ektenias; only some orthodox do, and usually not as many. Some omit entire ektenias.
In some highly latinized parishes, the illicit addition of the filioque.
In preparation of the presanctified gifts for repose, local variations on intinction or not, and how. (dipping, pouring, none; some or all particles.) Note that these variations are not due to Catholic/Orthodox, but vary across Orthodox as well as Catholic use.
Some entrance/closing hymns vary due to different translations.
Catholics will have the occasional concelebrant in vestments from another rite during the DL of St John.
The specific location in relation to the liturgy of announcements varies; the same is true in Orthodox praxis. (My preference is after the dismissal but before the closing hymn.)
Possibility of DL being said without icons; illicit, unless indulted, in Catholic use, and just plain not happening in most of Orthodoxy except during persecutions.
5
5Loaves
Guest
Other than commemorating the Pope of Rome in the ECC, I myself can tell no difference when I’m at my Russian ECC and the Russian Orthodox Church I go to, including we often have the same music. In fact in our ECC we prayed for the repose of the soul of Archbishop Job, the head of the Orthodox Church in America in Chicago, when he died, unexpectedly, in Dec.The commemoration of the Pope in the Litanies would be the most obvious. After that perhaps some differences in translation of specific prayers, and some litanies longer or ommitted between various Orthodox and Greek Catholic usages (this even varies between various specific Orthodox usages). The basic structure of the Liturgy is identical.
C
ciero
Guest
In the Melkite and Greek usage the Pope is NOT prayed for or commemorated in the litanies, he is mentioned in the anaphora. Your EC example above is a slavic practice.Prayers for the pope would be a big one, I think. In the Litany of Peace, for example,
EC’s (Byzantine) reads:
“For our holy universal Supreme Pontiff N . . ., the Pope of Rome, for our most Reverend Archbishop and Metropolitan N . . . , for our God-loving Bishop N . . ., for the venerable priesthood, the diaconate in Christ, for all clergy and the people, let us pray to the Lord.”
EO’s:
“For our Archbishop (Name), our Bishop (Name), the honorable presbyters, the deacons in the service of Christ, and all the clergy and laity, let us pray to the Lord.”
I’m sure there are other differences, that someone from the Eastern tradition could say more about than me.
C
ciero
Guest
Closing hymn? Must be a Ruthenian thing, never saw this in Melkite or Orthodox usage. Normaly the thanksgiving prayers start right after the dismissal.The English and Spanish vary widely due to different translators and different protocols of translation.
The Tonal Melodies of the Octoechos vary. Since writing them down seems mostly a 19th-20th C idea, they have drifted widely, and some drift occurred post-union.
The addition of the pope to the litanies, as a versicle:
Deacon For our holy father (Name), Pope of Rome, let us pray to the Lord.
All Lord, have Mercy.
Note that the 2009 Melkite English does NOT have the papal commemoration here, the Ruthenian does, and I’ve seen it in some other ones.
The addition of the Pope to the hierarchical commemorations following the Hirmos:
Ruthenian:
Celebrant Among the first, O Lord, remember our holy father (Name), Pope of Rome, our most reverend Metropolitan (Name), our God-loving bishop (Name). Preserve them for your holy churches in peace, safety, honor, and health for many years as they faithfully impart the word of your truth.
All And remember all your people.
Melkite:
Priest: First, Lord, remember our Father N. Pope of Rome, our Most Blessed Patriarch N., our Father and (Arch)bishop N. Graciously bestow them to Your holy Churches in peace, safety, honor, health, long life, rightly dispensing the word
of Your truth.
In monasteries, the Superior is mentioned here:
For our Father and Superior, the Priest N.
The Deacon (from the Holy Doors, facing the people):
Deacon: And for the Priest N. who offers these holy gifts;
The Deacon (or in his absence, the Priest) continues:
For our government, protected by God; for the salvation and help of the people here present; for those whom each of us has in mind; and for all men and women.
All: Remember all men and women.
(Ruthenian: 2006 Divine Liturgies book; Melkite: 2009 “experimental” promulgation PDF; underlining mine, color original in both.)
Many Catholic liturgies omit certain versicles of the ektenias; only some orthodox do, and usually not as many. Some omit entire ektenias.
In some highly latinized parishes, the illicit addition of the filioque.
In preparation of the presanctified gifts for repose, local variations on intinction or not, and how. (dipping, pouring, none; some or all particles.) Note that these variations are not due to Catholic/Orthodox, but vary across Orthodox as well as Catholic use.
Some entrance/closing hymns vary due to different translations.
Catholics will have the occasional concelebrant in vestments from another rite during the DL of St John.
The specific location in relation to the liturgy of announcements varies; the same is true in Orthodox praxis. (My preference is after the dismissal but before the closing hymn.)
Possibility of DL being said without icons; illicit, unless indulted, in Catholic use, and just plain not happening in most of Orthodoxy except during persecutions.
A
Aramis
Guest
I’ve seen it in OCA village parishes in Alaska.Closing hymn? Must be a Ruthenian thing, never saw this in Melkite or Orthodox usage. Normaly the thanksgiving prayers start right after the dismissal.
Just about any blanket “The Orthodox do X” statement has some jurisdiction that does something different.
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