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manualman
Guest
Thanks guys, I do sometimes miss things skimming threads. I think I was just stunned at the tacit admission by several that there is no real THERE there in the teachings of some (not all) protestant denominations.
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benjohnson
Guest
If left to my own devices, I would become vague.
The Lutheran Confessions and the Book of Concord are an amazing tools to help me follow the correct path, even if that path doesn’t immediately look like the correct path and goes against my initial desire. They have saved me a lot of suffering.
bookofconcord.org
Agreed, Ben. Being a confessional, doctrinal communion is, at least for me, an advantage that some others appear to lack. Our understanding of the “core beliefs” of the catholic faith can there. They make us aware when some Lutherans move away from them. As a result, I have confidence that our (LCMS) pastors won’t/can’t swerve off into individual interpretation, and the confessions prevent me from doing so, as well.
Jon
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ltwin
Guest
I’m not saying that all Protestants are the same. What I’m saying is that denominational titles and formal theological schemes are not so important. What is important is the general worldview of a Protestant. Therefore, mainline Calvinists and mainline Arminians will have more in common than their evangelical counterparts and vice versa. It is getting to the point where formal identifications mean less and less as modernism continues to take its toll on mainline churches.
There are substantial differences, but there is also a level of unity that I think can be hard for Catholics to understand. Because the claim to exclusive truth is rare in Protestantism, there is a greater attempt to see other churches as all trying to do the same thing and reach the same goal. Yes, there are disagreements, but just because I may disagree with the Presbyterians on an issue, I still see the Presbyterian Church as a church if the gospel is being preached. That is the primary criteria for me. Can I find the Gospel in the Presbyterian Church? There are some Presbyterian churches that I might not be able to say that, but there are others where I know that I will. So, its not so much the denomination that concerns me. I would want to get to the level of the local church and see if the gospel is being proclaimed.
I don’t think that can be said to be generally true anymore. Hardcore Calvinists can be hard to find, even in Presbyterian churches.
The vast majority of Pentecostals believe that anyone who has been born again has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. They distinguish this from being “filled or baptized with the Holy Spirit” which, some say, is initially and physically evidenced by speaking in tongues. Spirit baptism for Pentecostals is not about getting saved. It is about being empowered for Christian ministry and service.
Yes.
I don’t think anyone is claiming that there are no differences. What we’re claiming is that most Protestants don’t see those differences the same way as Catholics see them.
There are definitely substantial differences between PCUSA and the SBC. But you are comparing a mainline, liberal denomination and with a conservative, evangelical one. If you compared the PCUSA with the American Baptists, both mainline churches, you’d see a lot less differences I’d imagine.
Itwin,
Can you give me a couple of examples of differences that Protestants don’t see in the same way as Catholics?
Jon
P
Publisher
Guest
Friend, I didn’t mean to imply that other beliefs are not important…they are…but unless those “other beliefs” do not start and end with the revelation of the love and mercy of God thru Jesus of Nazareth…I don’t find them “subtantial” enough to refuse fellowship with another who confessed faith in Christ Jesus.
I am a Friend…I believe we need to live a life of holiness. I believe that sanctification begins when the grace of God is applied to our lives and we are Baptized into His Body by the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit. I have worshipped with Free Methodists, Methodists and Nazarenes. I do not have to ascribe to their doctrine of entire sanctification, which is one of their chief beliefs.
I have worshipped with Baptists and Mennonite Brethren who lean heavily toward the eternal security of the believer…I can even “buy into” some points they make…a Christian who has recieved God’s work of grace thru faith WILL live a different life. It does matter if we willfully commit sins of commission and omission…and I can even give a nod to their belief that anyone who does willfully live a life of sin never received the “saving grace” of God…I don’t embrace the doctrine…it really does not effect me in any way on how I live my life even though the security of the believer IS one of their core beliefs…their faith in Christ Jesus is what binds us together…NOT their “core beliefs” that separate them from other faith traditions into one of their own.
I have never undergon water baptism…yet I have filled the pulpit as interim pastor in a Mennonite Brethren church until their new pastor arrived. They wanted me to undergo water baptism as they felt water baptism was how one entered into the life of the church. I told them I would serve them in the pulpit and preach Christ, but I would be false to engage in a ritual that I felt had no efficacy to my soul just to satisfy them. There is One Baptism, and I have been Baptized by the only baptism that truly marks and changes the soul…by the Holy Spirit…that satisfied them, I filled the pulpit for three Sundays.
I attend an Episcopal church with some friends once in a while. I go forward for the eucharist, with the priest having full knowledge I am a Friend, and while I am thankful that by allowing me to join in their Sacred Meal, they acknowledge me as a brother in Christ, I do not find any efficacy in receiving the “body and blood of Christ”…our common faith in the work of God thru Christ IS the one thing that binds us together…not the rituals of their tradition.
The One Thing that causes unity is not confessing the same thing, but the common experience that we are all members of One Body.
Its interesting that you answered the OP’s thread in this post. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper are indeed core beliefs. Baptism by water and the Spirit IS Baptism that “truly marks and changes the soul”, and the Eucharist IS His body and blood. I see them as far more than “rituals of tradition”, but instead means of grace instituted by Christ Himself.
These are two profound, non-negotiable core teachings of the historic Church that I could never compromise.
So, to the OP, does this answer the intent of your thread?
Jon
P
Publisher
Guest
As a Friend, one can enter into the waters of baptism a “dry sinner” and come out a “wet sinner”…no change noticed as their lives have not become new in Christ in any discernable way…they could…but it is not a given. But no one Baptized in the Cleansing Fire of the Holy Spirit can remain the same. Life changes, hearts are clean with this Baptism…a ritual washing in water might clean the body but the soul remains dead and dark with the stain of sin.
Communing with Christ and Listening to His Voice also changes a person who experiences His True Presence…but one can eat a loaf of consecreated bread and drink a jug of consecreated wine and other than becoming drunk and stuffed, their lives remain the same…their souls and spirits remain empty and bound…I don’t expect my beliefs to be embraced friend Jon, but the reasons Friends do not practice the “outward signs” is because by practicing them, one does not necessarily change, but when the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit infills us and we experience the Presence in our lives…we cannot remain unchanged.
And while your beliefs don’t necessarily embrace me, I don’t need them to…all I need to do is embrace you as a brother in Christ, the responsibility is mine…not yours.
I embrace you, as well, but I think you miss the nature of my post. My intent was to demonstrate, honestly, to the OP that core beliefs do matter, and that they in fact exist.As a Friend, one can enter into the waters of baptism a “dry sinner” and come out a “wet sinner”…no change noticed as their lives have not become new in Christ in any discernable way…they could…but it is not a given. But no one Baptized in the Cleansing Fire of the Holy Spirit can remain the same. Life changes, hearts are clean with this Baptism…a ritual washing in water might clean the body but the soul remains dead and dark with the stain of sin.
Communing with Christ and Listening to His Voice also changes a person who experiences His True Presence…but one can eat a loaf of consecreated bread and drink a jug of consecreated wine and other than becoming drunk and stuffed, their lives remain the same…their souls and spirits remain empty and bound…I don’t expect my beliefs to be embraced friend Jon, but the reasons Friends do not practice the “outward signs” is because by practicing them, one does not necessarily change, but when the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit infills us and we experience the Presence in our lives…we cannot remain unchanged.
And while your beliefs don’t necessarily embrace me, I don’t need them to…all I need to do is embrace you as a brother in Christ, the responsibility is mine…not yours.
To your point, we agree that the Spirit works through the word - faith comes by hearing. We disagree regarding how the Spirit also uses the Sacraments. Rregeneration comes by the Spirit working through His word and sacraments to change our hearts. If that change is rejected, it is our doing.
Jon
P
Publisher
Guest
Friends believe that God can work thru ritual sacraments to those willing to accept that cleansing and grace thru Christ by the work of the Holy Spirit…but partaking in the sacraments, duly confected and correctly administered does not necessarily change a person nor cleanse them…that “one thing” needed is faith and trust in the work of God thru Christ…If I can receive the Reality of His Presence and experience the cleansing Baptism of the Holy Spirit without the ritual observances, and you accept that engaging in those sacraments aren’t necessarily absolutely required…then we have some agreement…whether using the sacramental rituals or not, it is faith in the Grace and Mercy of God thru Christ that is the ONE INDISPENSIBLE “ingredient” that is needed.
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SteveVH
Guest
Publisher, the efficacy of any sacrament depends upon the interior disposition of the one receiving it. The sacrament itself contains the fullness of God’s grace, but if one approaches the sacrament without even believing it to begin with, how do you expect it to change one’s life? God wishes to give us himself, but he will never force himself upon us.
“…baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. “Take and eat”. Christ’s words here call us to Baptize, and to receive His real and substantial body and blood, “as oft as you drink”, tells me these are not indispensible. So, as I said, significant disagreement on this core belief.
But, I pray you His peace.
Jon
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ltwin
Guest
A lot of what I hear from Catholics on Catholic Answers is something along the lines of, “Protestants are divided between so many different doctrines, therefore they have no unity, no authority but themselves, and why would anyone want to be apart of such confusion? The Catholic Church on the other hand knows exactly what it believes and has all of its stuff together and why wouldn’t Protestants want to be apart of the such a Church that has clear unity and authority and doctrinal integrity? It should be so obvious to Protestants that Protestantism is dysfunctional and the Catholic Church is the way to go!” This is admittedly not as eloquently stated as it is when state by Catholics, but this is the impression I get from Catholics.
I think most Protestants, while they will defend their doctrinal stance vigorously, are not as dismayed or concerned about the fact that doctrinal differences exist among Christians. The fact that different groups of Christians have doctrinal differences between them, while its not something I rejoice over, is not something that I feel like points to a particular problem. People see things differently. We’re never going to agree entirely. We should rather rejoice over what we have in common.
It’s always been natural for me to look at things this way. I grew up hearing, “There isn’t going to be a section in heaven for Pentecostals, and another section for Baptists, and another sections for Methodists, etc. We’re all gonna be in heaven together.” Differences never really came into play as long as we could recognize that the gospel was being preached in each other’s churches. Maybe you disagree? Wouldn’t be the first thing Protestants disagreed on.
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kempo1
Guest
Hello itwin,
The unity and doctrinal integrity that Catholics refer too comes from the fact that on any given day of the week you enter a Catholic church you and millions of Catholics around the world will here the same scripture readings along with the prayers and most importantly receive the same sacraments. The homily may be different on some level but it will derive from the same source. One body celebrating together as Christ taught us. Having a magesterium is one of the great blessings we receive through our Holy church to guide the teachings along with the Holy father so we have continuity and peace of mind knowing that any Priest you encounter will be on the same page to teach and guide us.
If you look at protestantism, evangelical,pentecostalism, from our perspective, you would understand that it looks like a giant mess. I dont mean to paint too broad here, but my experience is that you have too many pastors who operate on their own authority that can make up their very own doctrines. This is why there are so many different churches and doctrines in disagreement. I also realize that the majority of them mean well and love the Lord. But there has to be checks and balances. That is what is so special in my opinion, about our faith, we have the Pope and the magesterium for that purpose. Catholis on the most part realize as the church has taught us that other churches have some truth. But the fullness of faith and truth can be realized through the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic church.
The unity and doctrinal integrity that Catholics refer too comes from the fact that on any given day of the week you enter a Catholic church you and millions of Catholics around the world will here the same scripture readings along with the prayers and most importantly receive the same sacraments. The homily may be different on some level but it will derive from the same source. One body celebrating together as Christ taught us. Having a magesterium is one of the great blessings we receive through our Holy church to guide the teachings along with the Holy father so we have continuity and peace of mind knowing that any Priest you encounter will be on the same page to teach and guide us.
If you look at protestantism, evangelical,pentecostalism, from our perspective, you would understand that it looks like a giant mess. I dont mean to paint too broad here, but my experience is that you have too many pastors who operate on their own authority that can make up their very own doctrines. This is why there are so many different churches and doctrines in disagreement. I also realize that the majority of them mean well and love the Lord. But there has to be checks and balances. That is what is so special in my opinion, about our faith, we have the Pope and the magesterium for that purpose. Catholis on the most part realize as the church has taught us that other churches have some truth. But the fullness of faith and truth can be realized through the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic church.
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Patavium
Guest
If the protestants are not divided, then point me to the Protestant Church? It does not exist.
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Entangled
Guest
Protestant Church means “Protest.”
It started with Martin Luther. (Lutherans) So if you see any church not “Catholic.”
It didn’t stop there. Based on certain Biblical areas, they also started to “divide.” Like branches in a tree, with Catholism at the trunk, Lutheranism as the next branch and Methodists, Baptists, etc… going off from there.
The division is not the misbelief of Christ being our saviour, but other certain areas within how you express it in worship.
Lutehrans, the grandaddy, do not recognise Holy Orders… thus meaning the Pope has no authority. As a fellow Lutheran at one time, I can say from my Synod, we had a great respect for him, but we did not see his authority. Saints had a back seat, Holy orders took a back seat, meaning Pastor could marry and not have to take vows. Grace became the forefront. Just go to God, Through Christ to have your sins forgiven privately.
Methodists see the Bible as COMPLETELY Interpretable. The Body and Blood of Jesus is a symbolic act. A branch of The Church of England, it became another reform. The Bible it’s self can be interpreted more loosely. The empjasis being, look at the Bible then and interpret wholey now.
Baptists don’t recognize infant Baptism for the infant can not speak for themselves and can not be recognized until Confirmation. Then, they children get baptized.
When the “protest” started, then, different ideas of what should be done within the faith. The Church of England, and all the others… and then free churches, non-denominational churches, meaning they do follow any denomination so they can be “free,” to concentrate on the nuts and bolts of Christianity.
Protestant means “Protest,” stemming back to the first skism against the Church which is now called Catholic (meaning Universal, which is it’s actual name.)
You will see one giant theme in all Protestants. The Holy Orders is not recognized. It’s ancient authority is not recognized.
The differences in core protestant beliefs has to do with interpretation, sacrements and how they are viewed, pastoral differences, like men and women becoming pastors, how worship is conducted… like should it be solemn and humble souly concentrated on meditation concentrating on God in that way or should it be celebrated more elaborately, expressing your worship with song and dance and enjoyment of the fact you Love and Worship God?
The general idea is the same. The approach is different. This is what it means to be Catholic or Protestant. Fundimental or Liberal…
It started with Martin Luther. (Lutherans) So if you see any church not “Catholic.”
It didn’t stop there. Based on certain Biblical areas, they also started to “divide.” Like branches in a tree, with Catholism at the trunk, Lutheranism as the next branch and Methodists, Baptists, etc… going off from there.
The division is not the misbelief of Christ being our saviour, but other certain areas within how you express it in worship.
Lutehrans, the grandaddy, do not recognise Holy Orders… thus meaning the Pope has no authority. As a fellow Lutheran at one time, I can say from my Synod, we had a great respect for him, but we did not see his authority. Saints had a back seat, Holy orders took a back seat, meaning Pastor could marry and not have to take vows. Grace became the forefront. Just go to God, Through Christ to have your sins forgiven privately.
Methodists see the Bible as COMPLETELY Interpretable. The Body and Blood of Jesus is a symbolic act. A branch of The Church of England, it became another reform. The Bible it’s self can be interpreted more loosely. The empjasis being, look at the Bible then and interpret wholey now.
Baptists don’t recognize infant Baptism for the infant can not speak for themselves and can not be recognized until Confirmation. Then, they children get baptized.
When the “protest” started, then, different ideas of what should be done within the faith. The Church of England, and all the others… and then free churches, non-denominational churches, meaning they do follow any denomination so they can be “free,” to concentrate on the nuts and bolts of Christianity.
Protestant means “Protest,” stemming back to the first skism against the Church which is now called Catholic (meaning Universal, which is it’s actual name.)
You will see one giant theme in all Protestants. The Holy Orders is not recognized. It’s ancient authority is not recognized.
The differences in core protestant beliefs has to do with interpretation, sacrements and how they are viewed, pastoral differences, like men and women becoming pastors, how worship is conducted… like should it be solemn and humble souly concentrated on meditation concentrating on God in that way or should it be celebrated more elaborately, expressing your worship with song and dance and enjoyment of the fact you Love and Worship God?
The general idea is the same. The approach is different. This is what it means to be Catholic or Protestant. Fundimental or Liberal…
P
Patavium
Guest
Yes, but Protestant “protest” even other protestants, and you also have separation between baptists, between methodists, and such. Thus, protestants “protest” yes, even to this day, that’s why we have so many denominations, and the number continues to grow.
P
Publisher
Guest
Friend, let me ask you a question. Can God work in people’s lives and bring them to “fullness of grace” without any of the ritual observances being observed, but only receiving Christ “spiritually” thru faith…“after the manner of Friends”? Is the Lutheran position that the rituals are necessary to receive grace…or is “by grace thru faith” enough?
P
Publisher
Guest
I understand that…is the converse also true? That one can put their trust in God thru Christ and receive the “fullness of God’s grace” without ever engaging in any of the ritual observances?
J
jrtrent
Guest
Lutherans teach that God works through means, the Word of the Gospel, Baptism, and the Lord’s Supper. It is by these means, and these means alone, that faith is both created and strengthened. One difference between Lutherans and the Reformed is that the latter teach that the Holy Ghost works “immediately” and directly on a person, able to create faith in a person apart from the Word and Sacraments.
Here’s a short excerpt from a Lutheran site:
“Salvation is a gift of God through, and as a result of, the meritorious life, and blood atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross. Man is justified before God for the sake of, and by the work of Christ. God’s revealed Word is the both the bearer of the message of that objective fact, as well as the power to convert the heart. Without the Means of Grace man neither knows the love of God, or the power of God unto salvation. For that reason the Holy Ghost works through the Means of Grace alone! and the Lutheran Confessions say: ‘Likewise, we reject and condemn the error of the Enthusiasts who imagine that God draws men to Himself, enlightens them, justifies them and saves them without means, without the hearing of God’s Word and without the use of the Sacraments.’ Formula of Concord, Epitome, Article II.” clclutheran.org/shared/thoughtdocs/meangrac.htm
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