Differences in training when looking at the FSSP, Institute of Christ the King, etc.?

[Megan7]

This question goes out to those who have either attended all of these Churches, to Brother JR, or someone in the know.

Can you please tell me the difference in training & or how would you differentiate
the FSSP, the Insititute of Christ the King and the Canon Regulars in Chicago?

How is their training compared to each other, does one spend more time studying Thomas Aquinas, or someone else?

How are their sermons different from each other?

Again, if you have been able to attend one of their Churches, please explain?

And finally, would the SSPX be closer to the FSSP in the same type of training & sermons?

I hope I am wording my question correctly, I am looking for opinions, like when we hear “Oh, the Jesuits teach in this way, or were trained in this area”

I once heard a comparison between the Institute & the FSSP, something along the lines that the Institute likes to restore old Churches, but I can’t remember the rest…

Thanks,
Pax,

Megan

 

[Megan7]

This question goes out to those who have either attended all of these Churches, to Brother JR, or someone in the know.

Can you please tell me the difference in training & or how would you differentiate
the FSSP, the Insititute of Christ the King and the Canon Regulars in Chicago?

How is their training compared to each other, does one spend more time studying Thomas Aquinas, or someone else?

How are their sermons different from each other?

Again, if you have been able to attend one of their Churches, please explain?

And finally, would the SSPX be closer to the FSSP in the same type of training & sermons?

I hope I am wording my question correctly, I am looking for opinions, like when we hear “Oh, the Jesuits teach in this way, or were trained in this area”

I once heard a comparison between the Institute & the FSSP, something along the lines that the Institute likes to restore old Churches, but I can’t remember the rest…

Thanks,
Pax,

Megan

Brother JR, are you out there?

Anyone?

Thanks,

Pax

 

[TrueLight]

I’ll respond somewhat to the Sermon Question.

I have heard sermons by the FSSP, SSPS and ICKSP.

I would say that the FSSP and SSPX preach very similarly when it comes to sermons.

They tend to be direct and to the point with no equivocation. Fire and brimstone. That has been my experience.

But then again, the FSSP originally was originally formed with SSPX priests, so no surprise there.

 

[Megan7]

I’ll respond somewhat to the Sermon Question.

I have heard sermons by the FSSP, SSPS and ICKSP.

I would say that the FSSP and SSPX preach very similarly when it comes to sermons.

They tend to be direct and to the point with no equivocation. Fire and brimstone. That has been my experience.

But then again, the FSSP originally was originally formed with SSPX priests, so no surprise there.

Hi True Light!

Thanks for your reply & help! I love that about the FSSP & SSPX.

What are the Institute’s (ICKSP) sermons like?

By the way, Congrats on getting confirmed this year!:dancing: Blessings.

Pax,
Megan

 

[nannygirl]

Hi Megan7, I attend Mass at an Oratory of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. It’s a misconception that the Institute “likes to restore old Churches”. Like most, they wouldn’t mind having Churches that have already been restored. In our diocese they were invited by the Bishop and given a Church that was over 100 years old. It had been neglected for over 20 years and we spent 3 years bringing it up to par. It just happens that we take what we are offered and make the best of it for the glory of God.

Their Shrine in Chicago was a burned out shell (from the riots in the 60’s) of a Church when they arrived, but they have managed to make it work while they rehab it.

Here is a blurb from the Institute’s website about them. Their motto says it all:

“Recognizing the importance of a deep harmony between faith, liturgy, life, and the power of beauty in attracting the human senses to the things above, an integral part of the Institute’s charism is the use of the traditional Latin Liturgy of 1962 for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the other sacraments. Great care for a solemn liturgy, complete fidelity to the doctrine of the Church and the Holy Father, and awareness of the central role of Grace, especially Charity – these are essential elements of the Institute’s spirituality, which is drawn from its three co-patrons, St. Benedict, St. Thomas Aquinas, and St. Francis de Sales. Our motto, taken from St. Paul, is “Live the truth in charity.” The Institute operates in more than fifty places in twelve countries, where our priests focus on the care of souls in many different ways. To assist our priests in their apostolic work, the Institute also has clerical oblates. In 2004, a community of religious sisters was canonically established to aid the priests in their mission through prayer and apostolic work."

institute-christ-king.org/vocations/seminary-video/

 

[Megan7]

Hi Megan7, I attend Mass at an Oratory of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. It’s a misconception that the Institute “likes to restore old Churches”. Like most, they wouldn’t mind having Churches that have already been restored. In our diocese they were invited by the Bishop and given a Church that was over 100 years old. It had been neglected for over 20 years and we spent 3 years bringing it up to par. It just happens that we take what we are offered and make the best of it for the glory of God.

Their Shrine in Chicago was a burned out shell (from the riots in the 60’s) of a Church when they arrived, but they have managed to make it work while they rehab it.

Here is a blurb from the Institute’s website about them. Their motto says it all:

“Recognizing the importance of a deep harmony between faith, liturgy, life, and the power of beauty in attracting the human senses to the things above, an integral part of the Institute’s charism is the use of the traditional Latin Liturgy of 1962 for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the other sacraments. Great care for a solemn liturgy, complete fidelity to the doctrine of the Church and the Holy Father, and awareness of the central role of Grace, especially Charity – these are essential elements of the Institute’s spirituality, which is drawn from its three co-patrons, St. Benedict, St. Thomas Aquinas, and St. Francis de Sales. Our motto, taken from St. Paul, is “Live the truth in charity.” The Institute operates in more than fifty places in twelve countries, where our priests focus on the care of souls in many different ways. To assist our priests in their apostolic work, the Institute also has clerical oblates. In 2004, a community of religious sisters was canonically established to aid the priests in their mission through prayer and apostolic work."

institute-christ-king.org/vocations/seminary-video/

Hi Nannygirl

Thanks for your reply & help! I appreciate it.
I have read that they are all over Wisconsin & people love them.
You are blessed to have them.

How would you characterize their sermons?
Do they say, “such & such is a sin” ?
Or are they a bit more subtle in their tone, message?

They sound like a wonderful group of Priests, may our Lord bless them in their ministry.
I wish they would expand into more areas. Looking forward to hearing one of their
sermons at some point.

Thank you,
God Bless,

Pax,
Megan

 

[nannygirl]

Hi Megan,

I would characterize their sermons as more encouraging us to do the will of God by cooperating with His grace, then they explain how to do it and the dangers if we don’t. I’d like to add that they are very charitable!

Nan

 

[couponfit]

This question goes out to those who have either attended all of these Churches, to Brother JR, or someone in the know.

Can you please tell me the difference in training & or how would you differentiate
the FSSP, the Insititute of Christ the King and the Canon Regulars in Chicago?

How is their training compared to each other, does one spend more time studying Thomas Aquinas, or someone else?

How are their sermons different from each other?

Again, if you have been able to attend one of their Churches, please explain?

And finally, would the SSPX be closer to the FSSP in the same type of training & sermons?

I hope I am wording my question correctly, I am looking for opinions, like when we hear “Oh, the Jesuits teach in this way, or were trained in this area”

I once heard a comparison between the Institute & the FSSP, something along the lines that the Institute likes to restore old Churches, but I can’t remember the rest…

Thanks,
Pax,

Megan

I’ll just add some basic items for discernment that may help you in making your decision that questions are based on. 1. Spend some time with your options. Time may mean up to a year or more but you can do so simultaneously. 2. Discernment is more about being yourself and knowing yourself than it is about choosing. 3. Once you spend enough time knowing yourself and exploring the options, pray and you shall receive a revelation and if you don’t then do not move forward until you do.

As for SSPX, it looks they they will be in communion soon with the church. Until then I would start with the other groups you mentioned like FSSP, ICK, and Canons regular.

 

[moon1234]

I would say that ICRSS is much more observant of details within the Mass that lend to it being more regal and sublime. Details are NOT lost on the ICRSS whereas some details may be lacking with other traditional groups. Not to mean that these details are left out by SSPX, etc., but rather the ICRSS is VERY attentive to proper decorum.

In meeting personally with priests of the ICRSS, at least from the ones I have met, they would prefer to have the 1955 missal (before the messing with holy week) back. When I was married in the late 90’s before SP, our wedding mass was according to the 1954 missal. It was very nice to have commemorations of the St. of the day in our Mass. This would have been supressed in 1962. We also had the absolution before communion which would also have been supressed.

As to homilies, I think they are highly dependent on the Priest. Some Priest’s have gift for sermons and public speaking, others not so much. They have all been theologically sound from the ones I have head. There was no wandering into discussion about the upcoming football game, etc.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I would say that ICRSS is much more observant of details within the Mass that lend to it being more regal and sublime. Details are NOT lost on the ICRSS whereas some details may be lacking with other traditional groups. Not to mean that these details are left out by SSPX, etc., but rather the ICRSS is VERY attentive to proper decorum.

In meeting personally with priests of the ICRSS, at least from the ones I have met, they would prefer to have the 1955 missal (before the messing with holy week) back. When I was married in the late 90’s before SP, our wedding mass was according to the 1954 missal. It was very nice to have commemorations of the St. of the day in our Mass. This would have been supressed in 1962. We also had the absolution before communion which would also have been supressed.

As to homilies, I think they are highly dependent on the Priest. Some Priest’s have gift for sermons and public speaking, others not so much. They have all been theologically sound from the ones I have head. There was no wandering into discussion about the upcoming football game, etc.

I think this is a great description for the ICRSS.

ICRSS priests are trained to be Renaissance men. They are very attentive to many things. They are trained to be proper gentlemen, in the classical sense. Even their mannerisms are restrained and, to the modern observer, impart perhaps a wealthy “old money,” very well-bred aura. I suppose you could say they are very elegant, without, however, being in any effeminate.

The ICRSS also has something of a love for the Baroque in terms of architecture. They are restoring their main US church in Chicago in a very florid Baroque style for the interior. But even more, I’d say, they are true conservationists of all the styles of churches they inherit from their patron bishops.

I would say that the underlying principle separating the ICRSS and the FSSP/SSPX as regards their “style,” is that the ICRSS takes over parishes with the intent of having a very permanent ministry, while FSSP/SSPX priests will not hesitate to send one priest to a random parish or chapel to do one or two Masses a month. The ICRSS only accepts, for the most part, architecturally beautiful churches and will usually not delegate priests to a mission-type assignment. The FSSP/SSPX aren’t so picky about that. Most FSSP/SSPX priests are assigned to a particular church usually, yes, but they are more “mission-y” in that they will readily go out to a random diocesan parish (or in the case of the SSPX, a chapel that is not theirs) that is not their own to say Mass.

The ICRSS, IMO, will always be smaller than the FSSP and SSPX. The ICRSS is like a “premium” version of the FSSP or SSPX. A bit scandalous of a description, perhaps, but that is how I see it. That is not to say that I would turn down a FSSP or SSPX Mass though, I would certainly not if we had one here!

Another limiting factor in the size of the ICRSS is that they will not build another seminary. They are very open in that they want their men formed closely to the spirituality of their founder, Mons. Gilles Wach, who lives at their seminary in Gricigliano, Italy. Since he cannot be in two seminaries at once, they will not build another seminary. At least not while he is alive.

Oh and, all ICRSS priests, sisters and oblates must learn French.

 

[giuseppeTO]

I believe that the seminary studies are similar in the SSPX, FSSP, and ICK, which is based on St. Thomas Aquinas. The SSPX still gives seminarians minor orders and they take their vows with major orders, beginning with sub-deacon. Literally thousands of folks show up for ordinations at the SSPX seminary in Winona each June and camp out with their families on the seminary grounds for the entire weekend. It is usually very festive with some scattered Irish folk singing in the evening (even after Compline). I would really like see more Italian folk singing and dancing, but those are my prejudices.

But really, I think the heart of your question goes to formation and in my experience, that has a lot to do with the rector of the seminary. The current rector at Winona (Fr. le Roux) has been there since 2003 and I can definitely see his character and influence in the seminarians and priests he has formed. Fr has a gentle but firm style and he is very much involved with the development of each vocation. He teaches a majority of classes in the upper years and I am certain he uses the time to fully understand and nourish the seminarian. He is Father, Mother, Brother, Friend, Superior, and Adviser to all. While the same relationship may exist in other SSPX, FSSP, and ICK seminaries between the rector and the seminarian, the eventual priest will certainly bear the marks of his rector. And his sermons reflect his formation.

My advice for those discerning a vocation is to meet with the rector of the seminary or seminaries you are considering. This is very important because this man will have a great influence in your formation. Then visit the seminary during the school year and if possible in conjunction with a first or second class feast. In this way you can attend classes and get a feel for the teachers and you will also get to see how feasts are observed (usually quite festive assuming it is not a penitential feast).

And, of course, you can ONLY discern your vocation in the seminary away from the world. To quote one of my favorite Bishops “Don’t worry about your vocation. It’s God’s affair. Put yourself in His hands and it will become clear to you, one way or another.”

As far as sermons go, SSPX and FSSP are very similar and almost indistinguishable for the most part with, obviously, some exceptions. I have not heard many ICK sermons to give an opinion.

 

[YoungTradCath]

^^I would like to point out that the FSSP and ICRSS also confer Minor Orders and the Subdiaconate as well.

 

[tradcathusa]

Good question. The Cannons are very very good but they are a hybrid. They do both the traditional mass and the novus ordo. I beleive they go to a novus ordo seminary so they can’t be compared to the formation the FSSP, ICKS, SSPX etc get in a traditional seminary. It is extremely different. The SSPX has 6 seminaries, the FSSP has 2 ( Germany & USA) and the ICKSP has one in a castle in Italy that is surrounded by a moat. Many other traditional orders use the FSSP seminary ( Transalpine Redemptorists, Carmelites etc)

Traditional seminarians (generally) become clerics their second year when they are tonsured and receive the cassock. After that they are ordained to acolyte, lector, porter and exorcist. After these minor orders they are ordained to the major orders of sub deacon, deacon, and priest. The novus ordo is not simply an english translation of the old Rite, it is totally different. The best thing to do is visit them all and see what seems to fit. I think only about a third of those that start in a traditional seminary end up getting ordained priest. Hope this helps, God Bless

 

[Lujack]

Good question. The Cannons are very very good but they are a hybrid. They do both the traditional mass and the novus ordo. I beleive they go to a novus ordo seminary so they can’t be compared to the formation the FSSP, ICKS, SSPX etc get in a traditional seminary. It is extremely different. The SSPX has 6 seminaries, the FSSP has 2 ( Germany & USA) and the ICKSP has one in a castle in Italy that is surrounded by a moat. Many other traditional orders use the FSSP seminary ( Transalpine Redemptorists, Carmelites etc)

Traditional seminarians (generally) become clerics their second year when they are tonsured and receive the cassock. After that they are ordained to acolyte, lector, porter and exorcist. After these minor orders they are ordained to the major orders of sub deacon, deacon, and priest. The novus ordo is not simply an english translation of the old Rite, it is totally different. The best thing to do is visit them all and see what seems to fit. I think only about a third of those that start in a traditional seminary end up getting ordained priest. Hope this helps, God Bless

The Pope has made it quite clear that the OF and the EF are two aspects of the same rite, so they are not totally different.

The Canons do seem to have a bit of a different mission, though, in that their mission is less to preserve the EF in particular and more to create traditional parishes that offer both the EF and the OF in a very traditional way.

They are also much more localized; I don’t there are any Canons of St. John Cantius outside of Chicago.

 

[Megan7]

Hi Megan,

I would characterize their sermons as more encouraging us to do the will of God by cooperating with His grace, then they explain how to do it and the dangers if we don’t. I’d like to add that they are very charitable!

Nan

Hi Nan

Thanks for your kind reply & explanation! I understand a bit more now.

God Bless,

Pax,

Megan

 

[YoungTradCath]

Good question. The Cannons are very very good but they are a hybrid. They do both the traditional mass and the novus ordo. I beleive they go to a novus ordo seminary so they can’t be compared to the formation the FSSP, ICKS, SSPX etc get in a traditional seminary. It is extremely different. The SSPX has 6 seminaries, the FSSP has 2 ( Germany & USA) and the ICKSP has one in a castle in Italy that is surrounded by a moat. Many other traditional orders use the FSSP seminary ( Transalpine Redemptorists, Carmelites etc)

Traditional seminarians (generally) become clerics their second year when they are tonsured and receive the cassock. After that they are ordained to acolyte, lector, porter and exorcist. After these minor orders they are ordained to the major orders of sub deacon, deacon, and priest. The novus ordo is not simply an english translation of the old Rite, it is totally different. The best thing to do is visit them all and see what seems to fit. I think only about a third of those that start in a traditional seminary end up getting ordained priest. Hope this helps, God Bless

Men in traditional seminaries are not clerics at reception of tonsure. They enter the clerical state at their ordination to the diaconate, just as men who attend some other kind of seminary.

 

[PacoG]

I think another group that is similar to the Canons Regular in Chicago is the Oratorian Fathers.

They have been entrusted with two parishes in our diocese and they offer the entire range of liturgy on Sunday: Latin OF, English OF, Spanish OF, and the Extraordinary Form. In our diocese, they have ordained two priests in the last two years. Both parishes are very vibrant parishes. They run a burgeoning school that goes from PK-12.

 

[wasserfall]

While the same relationship may exist in other SSPX, FSSP, and ICK seminaries between the rector and the seminarian, the eventual priest will certainly bear the marks of his rector. And his sermons reflect his formation.

An interesting aside - The rector of the FSSP Seminary in Denton, Nebraska, Fr. Bisig, was rector of the SSPX seminary in Zaitzkofen, Germany in the 80s, maybe even up until 1988, but I’m not sure about that.

 

[Megan7]

I would say that ICRSS is much more observant of details within the Mass that lend to it being more regal and sublime. Details are NOT lost on the ICRSS whereas some details may be lacking with other traditional groups. Not to mean that these details are left out by SSPX, etc., but rather the ICRSS is VERY attentive to proper decorum.

In meeting personally with priests of the ICRSS, at least from the ones I have met, they would prefer to have the 1955 missal (before the messing with holy week) back. When I was married in the late 90’s before SP, our wedding mass was according to the 1954 missal. It was very nice to have commemorations of the St. of the day in our Mass. This would have been supressed in 1962. We also had the absolution before communion which would also have been supressed.

As to homilies, I think they are highly dependent on the Priest. Some Priest’s have gift for sermons and public speaking, others not so much. They have all been theologically sound from the ones I have head. There was no wandering into discussion about the upcoming football game, etc.

Thank you for your wonderful post!

I hope more people contribute to this thread, with their different experiences.

God Bless you,

Megan

 

[Megan7]

I think another group that is similar to the Canons Regular in Chicago is the Oratorian Fathers.

They have been entrusted with two parishes in our diocese and they offer the entire range of liturgy on Sunday: Latin OF, English OF, Spanish OF, and the Extraordinary Form. In our diocese, they have ordained two priests in the last two years. Both parishes are very vibrant parishes. They run a burgeoning school that goes from PK-12.

Thanks Paco,

I had no idea, I will try to look them up.

Pax,

Megan