Differences Lutherans vs Catholics

[Esdra]

Hi folks,

yesterday I had a very intersting discussion with my dad about the Lutherans.
My dad is so to speak a cafeterian Catholic who is strongly influence by protestant (especially Luther’s) theology.

We were discussing about the main differences between Lutherans and Catholics and came to the conclusion that the differnces are in fact, astonishingly, small:

Lutherans:

reject the primacy of the pope,

reject Mary’s dogmas,

reject invoking (asking them to help them) saints and Mary,

and have a completely different view of death: no purgatory, no praying for the saints;
a Lutheran funeral is more for the people leaving behind and not for the dead (like it is among Catholics) -* By the way: this is also true for my “Baptist” Church (EFKI - “Evangelical Free Church”). ****

What else could be added to my list?
Please feel free to participate!

Esdra*

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Hi folks,

yesterday I had a very intersting discussion with my dad about the Lutherans.
My dad is so to speak a cafeterian Catholic who is strongly influence by protestant (especially Luther’s) theology.

We were discussing about the main differences between Lutherans and Catholics and came to the conclusion that the differnces are in fact, astonishingly, small:

Lutherans:

reject the primacy of the pope,

reject Mary’s dogmas,

reject invoking (asking them to help them) saints and Mary,

and have a completely different view of death: no purgatory, no praying for the saints;
a Lutheran funeral is more for the people leaving behind and not for the dead (like it is among Catholics) -* By the way: this is also true for my “Baptist” Church (EFKI *- “Evangelical Free Church”). ****

What else could be added to my list?
Please feel free to participate!

Esdra

I’m sure you’ll get some Lutherans to chime in here, but…

As far as the Marian dogmas go, I think Lutherans would say that you’re free to believe them or not–which I wouldn’t say is the same as rejection.

As I recall, Luther felt sort of the same ambivalence about praying to saints and on behalf of the dead. I know Lutherans who pray the rosary.

Definitely no purgatory.

I think the Lutherans would define the magisterium of the church much more narrowly than catholics would.

 

[workingman]

Hi folks,

yesterday I had a very intersting discussion with my dad about the Lutherans.
My dad is so to speak a cafeterian Catholic who is strongly influence by protestant (especially Luther’s) theology.

We were discussing about the main differences between Lutherans and Catholics and came to the conclusion that the differnces are in fact, astonishingly, small:

Lutherans:

reject the primacy of the pope,

reject Mary’s dogmas,

reject invoking (asking them to help them) saints and Mary,

and have a completely different view of death: no purgatory, no praying for the saints;
a Lutheran funeral is more for the people leaving behind and not for the dead (like it is among Catholics) -* By the way: this is also true for my “Baptist” Church (EFKI *- “Evangelical Free Church”). ****

What else could be added to my list?
Please feel free to participate!

Esdra

There are similarities.

They hold the Marian dogmas as adi ofera. One is free to believe them or not. They do not consider it a none factor for salvation.

They do reject the primacy/infallibility of the pope.

The praying of the saints again is more a matter of adi ofera.

They have a invalid priest hood. This leads to a invalid Eucharist. Lutherans would obviously disagree.

Lutherans do not hold all seven sacraments. They if I remember correctly hold three Baptism, the Lords Supper, and confession.I don’t think they hold Marriage as a sacrament. I would have to dig out the Lutheran catechism and check.

If I missed anything or misrepresented I’m sure it will be pointed out. Maybe JohnNC will find this thread as he is very knowledgeable.

 

[JonNC]

=Esdra;7353981]Hi folks,

yesterday I had a very intersting discussion with my dad about the Lutherans.
My dad is so to speak a cafeterian Catholic who is strongly influence by protestant (especially Luther’s) theology.

We were discussing about the main differences between Lutherans and Catholics and came to the conclusion that the differnces are in fact, astonishingly, small:

The amount or importance of the differences depends on who you talk to. There are Lutherans and Catholics that do, indeed, agree that the differences are not that great. There are others in both groups who insist that the differences are so great, that they are effectively teaching different gospels. I fall in the former.

Lutherans:
reject the primacy of the pope,

As it has been perceived by Rome, yes. Not necessarily as it was viewed in the early Church, or by the Orthodox.

reject Mary’s dogmas

No rejected, but adiaphora, that is, “things indifferent”. We do not view them as articles of faith, nor hold the conscience of the believer to them or against them.

reject invoking (asking them to help them) saints and Mary,

Well, yes, though we recognize that they pray for us, the Church Militant, in a general way. And there is nothing inconsistent with a Lutheran prayfully asking God to listen to the prayers of the saints.

and have a completely different view of death: no purgatory, no praying for the saints;
a Lutheran funeral is more for the people leaving behind and not for the dead (like it is among Catholics) -* *

Correct on Purgatory. We do pray for the dead. The last sentence is, sort of, right.

By the way: this is also true for my “Baptist” Church (EFKI

• “Evangelical Free Church”). ****

I have already proved my ignorance of your “Baptist” Church, so I’ll comment no further about it.

What else could be added to my list?

Well, the big difference still remains the doctrine of justification, though the gap has closed significantly.
The number of sacraments.
The necessity (not the desirability) of apostolic succession
What is meant by the Sacrifice of the Mass.

Jon

 

[Esdra]

There are similarities.

They hold the Marian dogmas as adi ofera. One is free to believe them or not. They do not consider it a none factor for salvation.

They do reject the primacy/infallibility of the pope.

The praying of the saints again is more a matter of adi ofera.

They have a invalid priest hood. This leads to a invalid Eucharist. Lutherans would obviously disagree.

Lutherans do not hold all seven sacraments. They if I remember correctly hold three Baptism, the Lords Supper, and confession.I don’t think they hold Marriage as a sacrament. I would have to dig out the Lutheran catechism and check.

If I missed anything or misrepresented I’m sure it will be pointed out. Maybe JohnNC will find this thread as he is very knowledgeable.

I am not sure about confession.
At least this sacrament isn’t like the Catholic’s.

To Lutherans:
Confession and the Lutheran Church would really interest me!

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

The amount or importance of the differences depends on who you talk to. There are Lutherans and Catholics that do, indeed, agree that the differences are not that great. There are others in both groups who insist that the differences are so great, that they are effectively teaching different gospels. I fall in the former.

As it has been perceived by Rome, yes. Not necessarily as it was viewed in the early Church, or by the Orthodox.

No rejected, but adiaphora, that is, “things indifferent”. We do not view them as articles of faith, nor hold the conscience of the believer to them or against them.

Well, yes, though we recognize that they pray for us, the Church Militant, in a general way. And there is nothing inconsistent with a Lutheran prayfully asking God to listen to the prayers of the saints.

Correct on Purgatory. We do pray for the dead. The last sentence is, sort of, right.

Well, actually I meant how Catholics pray for the dead (so that they may get out of purgatory) and you certainly don’t do that in this sense! But more like praying for other people.

I have already proved my ignorance of your “Baptist” Church, so I’ll comment no further about it.

Hm, can’t remember that we have been talking about my Church.
But as you are ignorant of her anyway… - we don’t need to talk about that
as it would be off-topic here.

Well, the big difference still remains the doctrine of justification, though the gap has closed significantly.
The number of sacraments.
The necessity (not the desirability) of apostolic succession
What is meant by the Sacrifice of the Mass.

Good point! This is what I forgot: Justification by grace alone! Thanks.

Sacraments have already been pointed out, as well as the last two points.

What about the real presence? If I have understood that correctly Lutherans believe that the bread and wine become the real presence of Jesus in flesh and blood when recieving… (?)

Esdra

 

[JonNC]

I am not sure about confession.
At least this sacrament isn’t like the Catholic’s.

To Lutherans:
Confession and the Lutheran Church would really interest me!

Esdra

From the Augsburg Confession

Article XI: Of Confession.

1] Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession 2] an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19:12.

Article XII: Of Repentance.

1] Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted 2] and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these 3] two parts: One is contrition, that is, 4] terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of 5] the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ’s sake, sins are forgiven, comforts 6] the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance.

7] They condemn the Anabaptists, who deny that those once justified can lose the Holy Ghost. Also those who contend that some may attain to such 8] perfection in this life that they cannot sin.

9] The Novatians also are condemned, who would not absolve such as had fallen after Baptism, though they returned to repentance.

10] They also are rejected who do not teach that remission of sins comes through faith but command us to merit grace through satisfactions of our own.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=Esdra;7354372]Good point! This is what I forgot: Justification by grace alone! Thanks.

sola fide. We are justified by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone.

What about the real presence? If I have understood that correctly Lutherans believe that the bread and wine become the real presence of Jesus in flesh and blood when recieving… (?)

Our expression of the real presence is a literal one. When Christ says, “This is my body”, we believe that the bread is His body. While we don’t ordinarily use terms like “becomes”, we nevertheless recognize a change so that it is nolonger mere bread, but in fact His body.

Jon

 

[Esdra]

sola fide. We are justified by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone.

Our expression of the real presence is a literal one. When Christ says, “This is my body”, we believe that the bread is His body. While we don’t ordinarily use terms like “becomes”, we nevertheless recognize a change so that it is nolonger mere bread, but in fact His body.

Jon

Aha intersting.
So it is indeed very similar to the real presence in the CC.?

Except that a consecrated host itself is not the real presence? At least this is what I read here somewhen somewhere here in CAF. (So there is no monstrance where you can pray in front of etc).

Esdra

 

[workingman]

I am not sure about confession.
At least this sacrament isn’t like the Catholic’s.

To Lutherans:
Confession and the Lutheran Church would really interest me!

Esdra

Confession in the LCMS is very much like the CC. The biggest difference is that it is done face to face with the pastor instead of in the confessional. At least that is how it was when I was a LCMS member and went to confession.

 

[JonNC]

Hi workingman,
Hope you are well.

=workingman;7354310]There are similarities.

They hold the Marian dogmas as adi ofera. One is free to believe them or not. They do not consider it a none factor for salvation.

I think you meant we do not consider them a factor in salvation, and that would be correct.

They do reject the primacy/infallibility of the pope.

Correct on the infallibility of the pope when speaking ex cathedra. And we oppose it, if for no other reason, than it is declared without benefit of a truly ecumenical council.

The praying of the saints again is more a matter of adi ofera.

Not exactly, but I think it is less cut-and-dry than some who oppose it completely would say .
The Apology says:
*Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, 10] yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain. *

This sounds more to me like adiaphoron than complete opposition, but I think I’m in the minority.

They have a invalid priest hood. This leads to a invalid Eucharist. Lutherans would obviously disagree.

What makes you think that?
Yes, we would disagree. In this our relationship is asymmetical - recognize the validity of your priesthood, but you don’t recognize ours.

Lutherans do not hold all seven sacraments. They if I remember correctly hold three Baptism, the Lords Supper, and confession.I don’t think they hold Marriage as a sacrament. I would have to dig out the Lutheran catechism and check.

Many Lutherans claim 2 -Baptism and Eucharist. I believe confession/Absolution is a third. This is not meant, on the other hand, as an attempt to demote the other 4, but has more to do with definitions. Again, the Apology:
“If we define sacraments as ‘rites which have the command of God and to which the promise of grace has been added,’ we can easily determine which are sacraments in the strict sense. By this definition, rites instituted by men are not sacraments in the strict sense since men do not have the authority to promise grace. Hence signs instituted without God’s command are not sure signs of grace, even though they may instruct or admonish the simple folk. The genuine sacraments, therefore, are Baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and absolution (which is the sacrament of penitence), for these rites have the commandment of God and the promise of grace, which is the heart of the New Testament.”

If I missed anything or misrepresented I’m sure it will be pointed out. Maybe JohnNC will find this thread as he is very knowledgeable.

Pretty good, my friend, and thanks for the kind words.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=Esdra;7354417]Aha intersting.
So it is indeed very similar to the real presence in the CC.?

I think it is more similar than many others on both sides.

Except that a consecrated host itself is not the real presence? At least this is what I read here somewhen somewhere here in CAF. (So there is no monstrance where you can pray in front of etc).

That has more to do with the practice of Eucharistic Adoration, not often found in Lutheranism, except during the sacramental act.
We certainly believe the host (bread) IS the body of Christ, though we don’t express it as transubstantiated. Nor do we express it as consubstantiation.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I like so many things about Lutheranism, and since my son attends a Lutheran school I’m around them ten times more than I ever was and I am thoroughly impressed by their joy, their piety, and love for God.

What I would say concerns me most about Lutheranism is the fact that apostolic succession isn’t considered crucial at all and that the Eucharist, though they are very similar to Catholics in their view of it, is considered to “not be” the Eucharist anymore after communion. It seems, and this is anecdotal so I hope Lutherans will correct me if I’m wrong here, that Lutherans think it turns back into typical bread after confession. I find this ahistorical and of concern personally.

I was reading the Lutheran order of worship book while waiting in their church for a Christmas musical and the wording of their worship service is awesome. It’s very dignified much like the book of common prayer in my Anglican parish. The contemporary service however, SCARES ME!

 

[workingman]

JonNC;7354638]Hi workingman,
Hope you are well.

Hello Jon. Mine and my own are well. Though we are snowed in for the weekend.

I think you meant we do not consider them a factor in salvation, and that would be correct.

Yup that is what I meant.

Correct on the infallibility of the pope when speaking ex cathedra. And we oppose it, if for no other reason, than it is declared without benefit of a truly ecumenical council.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. Maybe someday that can change.

Not exactly, but I think it is less cut-and-dry than some who oppose it completely would say .
The Apology says:
Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, 10] yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain.

This sounds more to me like adiaphoron than complete opposition, but I think I’m in the minority.

Well even if you are in the minority there are others. I think it sounds like adiaphora to me also.

What makes you think that?
Yes, we would disagree. In this our relationship is asymmetical - recognize the validity of your priesthood, but you don’t recognize ours.

Come on now no bishops

Many Lutherans claim 2 -Baptism and Eucharist. I believe confession/Absolution is a third. This is not meant, on the other hand, as an attempt to demote the other 4, but has more to do with definitions. Again, the Apology:
“If we define sacraments as ‘rites which have the command of God and to which the promise of grace has been added,’ we can easily determine which are sacraments in the strict sense. By this definition, rites instituted by men are not sacraments in the strict sense since men do not have the authority to promise grace. Hence signs instituted without God’s command are not sure signs of grace, even though they may instruct or admonish the simple folk. The genuine sacraments, therefore, are Baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and absolution (which is the sacrament of penitence), for these rites have the commandment of God and the promise of grace, which is the heart of the New Testament.”

I was taught it was three. The reason now that I think about it was. They were instituted by
Christ.

Pretty good, my friend, and thanks for the kind words.

Jon

Well not bad I guess for being a little rusty. They were most definitely warranted. You are most welcome. God Bless.

 

[JonNC]

=gurneyhalleck1;7354826]I like so many things about Lutheranism, and since my son attends a Lutheran school I’m around them ten times more than I ever was and I am thoroughly impressed by their joy, their piety, and love for God.

And this is my experience with both Anglicans and Catholics.

What I would say concerns me most about Lutheranism is the fact that apostolic succession isn’t considered crucial at all and that the Eucharist, though they are very similar to Catholics in their view of it, is considered to “not be” the Eucharist anymore after communion.

On AS, the confessions demonstrate a desire that it be continued, but you are correct, not crucial, as we consider it a human tradition. On the Eucharist, I share your concern. To say that Christ’s intent for the Eucharist is clearly stated - to eat and drink - that should not leave us with the impressionn that His presence comes and goes. Lutheran practice, as far as I can tell, is moving toward being certain that all of the consecrated elements are consumed during the sacramental act, except what is reserved for the sick and shut-ins.

It seems, and this is anecdotal so I hope Lutherans will correct me if I’m wrong here, that Lutherans think it turns back into typical bread after confession. I find this ahistorical and of concern personally.

It concerns me, as well, as I believe it can lead to either a disrespectful disposal, or a belief in the heretical belief of receptionism, both of which, ISTM, are far worse than Eucharistic Adoration.

I was reading the Lutheran order of worship book while waiting in their church for a Christmas musical and the wording of their worship service is awesome. It’s very dignified much like the book of common prayer in my Anglican parish. The contemporary service however, SCARES ME!

Ditto.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=workingman;7354907]Hello Jon. Mine and my own are well. Though we are snowed in for the weekend.

You’re always snowed in in MN!! And you’ve decided to send that storm our way. W’re under a Winter Weather Advisory through Monday.

Well even if you are in the minority there are others. I think it sounds like adiaphora to me also.

Those who say it is not adiaphora will point to Smalkald, in which Luther is more strident in opposition to invocation. But even at that, he seems more concerned with its abuses than the practice itself.

Come on now no bishops

The confessions point out the fact that, early on, priests and bishops were of one order. What is more, there is at least one instance prior to the reformation where Rome allowed presbyter ordination.

I was taught it was three. The reason now that I think about it was. They were instituted by Christ.

Yes, institution by Christ, and the inclusion of a physical element - water in Baptism, etc.
That is why marriage is not considered a sacrament, in the strictest sense.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I went outside and raked leaves today in a short-sleeved San Francisco Giants t-shirt and it was sunny and warm. It was 63 today. We haven’t seen snow in this area since 1999 when it snowed for one day and we all ran outside and made snowmen, danced around in it, laughed, giggled, and were absolutely blown away! It has only snowed in our area like twice in one hundred years. Snow? What’s that?
California does have its benefits. Few left. But it does have them

You’re always snowed in in MN!! And you’ve decided to send that storm our way. W’re under a Winter Weather Advisory through Monday.

Those who say it is not adiaphora will point to Smalkald, in which Luther is more strident in opposition to invocation. But even at that, he seems more concerned with its abuses than the practice itself.

The confessions point out the fact that, early on, priests and bishops were of one order. What is more, there is at least one instance prior to the reformation where Rome allowed presbyter ordination.

Yes, institution by Christ, and the inclusion of a physical element - water in Baptism, etc.
That is why marriage is not considered a sacrament, in the strictest sense.

Jon

 

[gcnuss]

Alas, as usual I get to these discussions late. However, it may be of interest that the Lutheran-Catholic dialogue has just issued its eleventh report. It may be found here:

usccb.org/seia/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life.pdf

It’s rather long, so I haven’t had time to digest it.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

The Apology says:
Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, 10] yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain.

This sounds more to me like adiaphoron than complete opposition, but I think I’m in the minority.

I don’t think that you are in the minority at all.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Come on now no bishops

Hey! I got bishops. Got an e-mail from him this morning.