Which begs the question then, why couldn’t Baptists or Presbyterians or even Pentecostals call themselves “Lutheran”? Not that they would want to probably. If you name your group after a man who had certain theological ideals, and then toss out some, many, or even all of those ideals, why then would you not just switch denominations, or start following another person and rename your denomination?
That’s true, Jay. And even though Luther discusses private confession, it wasn’t focused on in the same way as Baptism and Communion.
Yes. I had a pleasant talk with a Traditional Anglican priest a couple of years back, read some on the idea, and found it a very inviting way to view the “other 4”.
“Of the Jews and Their Lies” is a particularly dark moment for Luther, and one Lutherans totally reject. Yet without making excuses, it is well to point out that, like most things Luther, he was a product of his time, and anti-judaism was a constant within the Church at that time. Johann Eck, who famously debated Luther, also wrote some rather disturbing anti-judaism things.
Well, first, the name Lutheran was a slur attached to the Churches that confessed the Augsburg Confession by their opponents, in the same way “Roman” was attached to Catholic as a slur. In both cases, the names were eventually adopted by the Churches.Which begs the question then, why couldn’t Baptists or Presbyterians or even Pentecostals call themselves “Lutheran”? Not that they would want to probably. If you name your group after a man who had certain theological ideals, and then toss out some, many, or even all of those ideals, why then would you not just switch denominations, or start following another person and rename your denomination?
To ne degree or another, yes, there are differences between Lutherans and Catholics on these.
Certainly nothing unclean enters Heaven, but Lutherans do not believe in a state or place of cleansing. such as Purgatory. We would claim that, first, there is no reference to such in scripture, and second, believe in the complete forgivenenss of sin as the result of Christ’s saving work. Therefore, at the moment of death, those who are saved by grace alone through faith enter Heaven, and those condemned, Hell.
Interesting. Are you “clean” this moment?
If I were, I would have no need of confession or the Eucharist. Sanctification is the ongoing growth in grace, trusting in that grace to bring me to eternal life.
Correct.
That is purgatory! You just phrased it differently but said the exact same thing. Unless I’m missing something. What you said is Catholic teaching and a very nice, succinct definition of purgatory.
Ugh haha…you’re absolutely right. At a former parish, the priest offered it on Saturday mornings at 8 am. If the goal was to discourage it since “none must,” he clearly succeeded.It exists in Anglicanism but go around my parish and you won’t talk to one person that has taken advantage of it! The Anglican addage is “all may, some should, none must” and trust me, those Anglicans take advantage of that “none must” category!
So I hear ya!
But not a separate state or place, as Catholicism has traditionally taught, and not the related indulgences and Treasury of Merit teachings.
What else is there besides a state or place? I get the differences or objections to indulgences and Treasury of Merit. I just think Lutherans actually believe in the process of purgatory but are afraid to use the word because it is too Catholic.
Is the person cleansed while still alive but at the cusp of death?
I think it is deeper than fear of appearing “too Catholic.” More importantly, the days of talking past each other, or worse, yelling at each other, are thankfully fading into the past.
I like that. Thanks. We are definitely close on our understanding of purgatory.
Sorry if I’m jumping in:
Lutherans do generally pray for the dead at the time of death, that God will accept the person in His mercy and grace. But you are right, that we don’t see in scripture a place or state that Catholics call purgatory.
Adding to what Jon has said, the following prayers are used in the funeral service or at the committal at graveside:
Now, from a Lutheran perspective we have done all that is necessary and/or possible for the deceased. From that point on, we simply trust in God’s mercy.