Differences?

  • Thread starter Thread starter tmarkh
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

tmarkh

Guest
Does anyone know of any web resources that lays out the differences between the monastic communities? I feel called to the monastic contemplative life and I am interested in the Carmelites, the Cistercians (Trappists), and the Carthusians. I know that they are all contemplative but what are their differences? I know that one group is friars, one monks, and one hermits. But what are the fundamental differences. I am also open to any information on the other monastic traditions (as well as differences).

Thanks
 
Does anyone know of any web resources that lays out the differences between the monastic communities? I feel called to the monastic contemplative life and I am interested in the Carmelites, the Cistercians (Trappists), and the Carthusians. I know that they are all contemplative but what are their differences? I know that one group is friars, one monks, and one hermits. But what are the fundamental differences. I am also open to any information on the other monastic traditions (as well as differences).

Thanks
The Carmelites, both the O.Carm. and the O.C,D., are not monastics. We are mendicant friars.

We do have hermits but there are not many of them, the two hermits groups for the O.Carm. in the United States are in Christoval, TX, and Lake Elmo, MN.

Here are some links to them.

For the group in Christoval, carmelitehermits.org/
For the group in Lake Elmo, decorcarmeli.com/Hermits.htm

It must be noted though, that hermits are different from monastics, especially the Trappists. Would be closer to the Carthusians.

These are small groups in the Carmelites. The majority of the O.Carm. (as well as the O.C,D, I think) are active. We use the term active contemplatives.

I know someone will point out that there is a group in Wisconsin that calls themselves Carmelite Monks but they are not part of either of the Carmelite Orders (O.Carm. or O,C.D.), they are formed under the jurisdiction of the local bishop where they are located.
 
Thanks. I thought that all Carmelites were like the Carthusians!
 
Thanks. I thought that all Carmelites were like the Carthusians!
When we lived on Mount Carmel we were hermits but we ate meals together and met for the Eucharist according to our original rule.

After our move to Europe we joined the mendicant friar movement. The majority of us are friars but we do have hermits.
 
+Those following the ** Holy Rule of St. Benedict** comprise the largest group of Catholic contemplative religious in the Western World . . . the Benedictines were our Wonderful God’s chosen instruments in the evangelization of Europe . . . and have been tried and proven as greatly blessed of** God **for many centuries . . . the Holy Rule of St. Benedict. . . in its entirety . . . including its liturgical system of pray:gopray2:ers . . . the Night Office and the Daytime Office . . . and devout use of the Book of Psalms and all of Sacred :bible1: Scripture . . . is meant for every class of mind and every degree of learning . . . it is written and framed not only to instruct and bless the educated and for souls advanced in perfection of holiness . . . but it organizes and directs a complete life of holiness in our Lord which is adapted for simple folk and for sinners . . . for the observance of the Commandments and for the beginnings of goodness. “We have written this Rule”, writes St. Benedict, “that by observing it in monasteries, we may shew ourselves to have some degree of goodness in life and a beginning of holiness.” Below are links re the Benedictine Order and information re same that you might find interesting:

:compcoff:** Link:** newadvent.org/cathen/02443a.htm

Below is a link to the** Order of St. Benedict **O.S.B website:

:compcoff: Link: osb.org/
. . . :coffeeread: . . .
Benedictine Spirituality
Benedictine refers to the spirituality and consecrated life [lived] in accordance with the Rule of St Benedict, written by Benedict of Nursia in the sixth century for the cenobitic communities he founded in central Italy. The most notable of these is Monte Cassino, the first monastery founded by Benedict around 529.
Used as a noun, the term denotes their members, the Benedictines. By extension it is sometimes applied to other adherents of the Benedictine spirituality. During the subsequent centuries many more Benedictine communities were founded, not only for monks but also for nuns, first throughout Europe and eventually also other areas of the world. This led to the formation in modern times of the Order of St Benedict. In addition to those autonomous Benedictine communities, a number of independent monastic orders were founded on the Rule of St Benedict, and so are also Benedictines in that sense. Such orders include the Congregation of Cluny, the Cistercians, and the Trappists.
- Wickipedia
There is a thriving blest contemplative Trappist (Cistercian) group of monks at Holy Cross Abbey who live by the Holy Rule of St. Benedict . . . which is nestled alongside the beautiful flowing Shenandoah River just outside Berryville, Virginia . . . it’s been a wonderful place of blessing in my life . . . you might check them out . . . the link is below . . . they are famous for their wonderful Monastery Bread . . . the daily portion of the Holy Rule of St. Benedict is posted each day on the . . . * Little Portions of the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours)* . . . threads here at CAF . . .

:compcoff: Link: hcava.org/

There is also a thriving blest solitary men’s Carmelite contemplative monastery tucked under the Rocky Mountains in northern Wyoming . . . the Carmelite Monks of Wyoming . . . who’s mission is to seek to perpetuate the charism of the Blessed Virgin Mary . . . living the Marian life as prescribed by the primitive Carmelite Rule and the ancient monastic observance. Father Mitch Pacwa has had them on the EWTN Live television show several times . . . they are famous for their delightful Monastery Coffee . . . the link is below . . .

**:compcoff: Link: **http://www.carmelitemonks.org/index.html

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Blessed Lord+
. . . thank you Blessed Holy Mother Mary+
. . . thank you Blessed Holy Mother Church+
. . . thank you Blessed Holy St. Benedict+

:signofcross:
 
It is important to distinguish between contemplative and enclosed. There are several contemplative families. The include monks, hermits and friars. Enclosed is a different concept from contemplative.

Those who are enclosed are either monks or hermits. They are contemplatives, but they are not the only contemplatives. The mendicant orders are also contemplative: Carmelites, Augustinians, Franciscans, Dominicans and Trinitarians. These orders combine contemplation with external apostolic activity.

Monks live in very tightly knit communities, whereas hermits live solitary lives, coming together several times a week for community liturgy, recreation, and a community meal.

The monks and the mendicants also live in tightly knit communities, doing all things in common: prayer, liturgy, recreation, work, and recreation. But ordinarilly monks do not leave their monasteries for outside apostolates. The few Benedictines that do so, return to their monastery. They are attached to a particular monastery, even if they are on the other side of the globe. Most of the Benedictine family never leaves the monastery, except on rare occasions. These include: Cistercians, Trappists, and Camaldolese. The mendicant observes the same practices of prayer and discipline as the monk, but does not live in a monastery. He lives in an open house called a priory or friary. He goes out to perform corporal works of mercy every day and returns to his house for those community functions and for contemplation each day. The mendicants first called Brothers by St. Francis of Assisi.

The term was Fratri in Italian. That word was bastardized in England into Friar. About the same time that Francis was founding the first order of friars, the Carmelites were arriving in Europe, Dominic was founding his branch of the Augustinian family, the Augustinian monks were coming out of their cloisters, and St. John De Matha was founding his Trinitarians. Because the Franciscan movement grew so fast, the term friar became very familiar and was applied to the other mendicant communities of the time. They too referred to themselves as Fratres or Brothers, to avoid confusion with the monks, even though inside the monastery the monks were also called brothers.

When people observed that these men were contemplatives and observed the monastic disciplines, but did not live inside the monstery they asked them, “Are you monks?” They responded, “No, we’re simple brothers.” Hence the term Fratri came into existence, today pronounced friar.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Dear tmarkh,
You might want to take a look at this webpage, which explains some of the differences between religious orders;

religious-vocation.com/differences_religious_orders.html

.
I can’t speak for the comments made about other religious families, but the section on the Carmelites on this page is innacurate in many respects, and bordering on libellous (!) in several others.

I don’t think this is a good resource, unfortunately.
 
Dear tmarkh,
You might want to take a look at this webpage, which explains some of the differences between religious orders;

religious-vocation.com/differences_religious_orders.html

.
I can’t speak for the comments made about other religious families, but the section on the Carmelites on this page is innacurate in many respects, and bordering on libellous (!) in several others.

I don’t think this is a good resource, unfortunately.
 
I can’t speak for the comments made about other religious families, but the section on the Carmelites on this page is innacurate in many respects, and bordering on libellous (!) in several others.

I don’t think this is a good resource, unfortunately.
Yes, very offensive.
 
I can’t speak for the comments made about other religious families, but the section on the **Carmelites on this page is innacurate in many respects, **and bordering on libellous (!) in several others.

I don’t think this is a good resource, unfortunately.
Please enlighten us! Forget the litigious bit.
 
I can’t speak for the comments made about other religious families, but the section on the Carmelites on this page is innacurate in many respects, and bordering on libellous (!) in several others.

I don’t think this is a good resource, unfortunately.
+While I can give the author of the referenced internet article credit for thoughtfully . . . and with what appears to be genuine concern . . . trying to tackle this very important subject . . . I found the Benedictine material in the article also considerably lacking . . . the overall document seems very skewed by an attitude of disillusionment and shows only an incomplete and only partial prayer:gopray2:ful breakthrough in discernment . . . and it is lacking in a sound scholarly approach to his overall subject . . . or the individual spiritualities he is evidently attempting to understand . . . and while Holy Mother Church at large . . . and her smaller community churches and her religious communities within . . . have all been attacked by the enemy of souls using modernism/liberalism/progressivism/relativism/and-many-other-ism’s . . . . which are not in accord with Sacred :bible1: Scripture, the Magesterium or Sacred Tradition of the Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church . . . there are real dynamic holy communities of individuals in the Lord . . . from our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI and Holy Apostolic See on down wherein God is victorious and through whom He is gaining wonderful victories for the **Kingdom of God **here on earth in this day and age . . .

The dear soul who wrote the article . . . *who appears quite sincere even though not very well informed *. . . reminds me of St. Peter as revealed in **Sacred :bible1: Scripture **when . . . upon seeing his beloved Lord walking toward he and his brethren in the boat out upon the sea . . walking upon the water of that sea . . . leapt out of the fishing boat and began to walk on the water toward . . . Christ Jesus his Lord . . . but then took his eyes off his Lord . . . and considered the blowing wind . . . lost faith . . . and began to sink and came into grave danger of drowning . . .
**. . . :coffeeread: . . . **The Holy :bible1: Bible
26 And they seeing him walk upon the sea, were troubled, saying: It is an apparition. And they cried out for fear. 27 And immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying: Be of good heart: it is I, fear ye not. 28 And Peter making answer, said: Lord, if it be thou, bid me come to thee upon the waters. 29 And he said: Come. And Peter going down out of the boat, walked upon the water to come to Jesus. 30 But seeing the wind strong, he was afraid: and when he began to sink, he cried out, saying: Lord, save me. 31 And immediately Jesus stretching forth his hand took hold of him, and said to him: O thou of little faith, why didst thou doubt? 32 And when they were come up into the boat, the wind ceased. - Matthew 14:26-32
May the Sweet Spirit of our Holy God reach out to this writer . . . and uplift the eyes of his faith once more to gaze on the . . . Holy Face of his Wonderful Lord . . . and call out to Him for help . . . . . and if he is one whom God is calling to religious life . . . may he find the community of the truly faithful which God has for him . . .

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Dear Lord+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Mary+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+

:signofcross:
 
tmarkh,

You may also want to consider the Camaldolese, a member of the Benedictines. Our charism (I’m an oblate) is based on the threefold good of community, solitude, and evangelization. I found this to be a most balanced approach in that there is room for different periods of one’s growth within the same family.

I’ll put a few links and good books at the bottom of this, but to give you a feel for the order here is St Romuald’s Brief Rule for Camaldolese Monks (he’s our founder):

St Romuald’s Brief Rule for Camaldolese Monks

*Sit in your cell as in paradise.
**Put the whole world behind you and forget it.
**Watch your thoughts like a good fisherman watching for fish,
*The path you must follow is in the Psalms — never leave it.
Code:
           *If you have just come to the monastery,
            **and in spite of your good will you cannot accomplish what                  you want,
            **take every opportunity you can to sing the Psalms in your                  heart
            **and to understand them with your mind.*

           *And if your mind wanders as you read, do not                  give up;
            **hurry back and apply your mind to the words once more.*
           *Realize above all that you are in God's                  presence,
            **and stand there with the attitude of one who stands                  
            before the emperor.*

           *Empty yourself completely and sit waiting,
            **content with the grace of God,
            **like the chick who tastes nothing and eats nothing
            **but what his mother brings him.*
Links:

New advent entry: newadvent.org/cathen/03204d.htm

Monastery homepage: camaldoli.it/en_index.htm

New Camaldoli Hermitage: contemplation.com/Hermitage/community.html

Books:

The Privilege of Love: Camaldolese Benedictine Spirituality, Edited by Peter-Damian Belisle (Collegeville: Liturgical Press, 2002)

Camaldoli: A Journey into its History and Spirituality by Lino Vigilucci (California: Source Books, 1995)

The Mystery of Romuald and the Five Brothers: Stories from the Benedictines and Camaldolese by Fr. Thomas Matus (California: Source Books, 1994)
 
Please enlighten us! Forget the litigious bit.
The ‘litigious bit’ was kind of ironically meant; the item is critical of the Carmelite orders of today, which at one level is free speech in action, and in another is just disrespectful given that it criticises without citation or examples given. I wouldn’t personally bother to sue (!) but I would be interested to see some evidence for the charges. 😦

The points I would take exception to (in the order in which they appear) are:

Carmelites should not be included within the monastic listing: we are not and have never been monastic orders.

The prophet Elijah is our spiritual father by his example but did not found the order: this is definitively a myth, best articulated in a fascinating but unhistorical pious work called ‘The Ten Books on the Way of Life and Great Deeds of the Carmelites’ by Felipe Ribot c.1385 (and available in English, ISBN 978-8872880760 - fabulous and fun if you have an interest in Carmelite spirituality).

We are decidely not a middle ground between the Benedictines and the Carthusians, being firmly allied to a mendicant life, and did not adopt some of the customs of the mendicants when we returned to Europe after the Crusades, but in contrast to our previously eremitical life, became a truly mendicant order.

With the possible exception of the groups of hermits mentioned in post #2 above, there are no Carmelite communities in which meals are consumed in ‘individual hermitages’ or cells. We eat and pray as a group unless work makes this impossible on any given day.

Carmelites have never been properly referred to as monks, although the volume mentioned above might be a source for this erroneous idea, inasmuch as Ribot uses the term frequently.

The emphasis on solitude is partially true in terms of contemplative prayer, but more often such prayer takes place in choir, most especially amongst the OCD.

Although our charism does seem to have produced a lot of mystics, the idea that St Teresa and St John pioneered an understanding of same is erroneous; many great mystics preceded them, and neither articulated something that in and of itself redefined our understanding of such experiences. Their greatest insights were on prayer itself, mystical or otherwise.

As an aside, the use of the term ‘mystical theology’ in the article is misleading, I would say: properly (as I understand it) it relates to that branch of theology that attempts to define mystical experience, and is not, as presented here and elsewhere on the site in question, a body of theological understanding that runs parallel to or at a higher level than orthodox doctrine or dogma and which is acquired through reading about the mystical experiences of particular individuals. Although St Teresa and St John were made doctors of the church in part because of their commentaries on prayer, their visions and/or locutions are incidental to this, even if they were the source of much of their writings. As an example, St Thomas Aquinas may have arrived at his conclusions following mystical prayer, or he may not, but it is his body of work, not its specific mode of delivery, that makes him a doctor. Mystical experiences indicate holiness, but not theological genius. As a final point, St John of the Cross continuously counselled St Teresa that mystical experience was unimportant in the larger scheme of things - if this wasn’t so, what chance of salvation would us non-mystics have? 🤷

I have never heard of either the Ancient Observance or the Teresian branches referred to as ‘the order of mystics’.

I would say it was inaccurate to state that there is a renewed interest in Carmelite spirituality, since there has never been a lack of interest.

The male branches have not tended to be less cloistered than the female branches: they have, in fact, never been cloistered. That such a contrast distinguishes communities today is thus obviously erroneous.

Overall, these inaccuracies and indeed, the tone of the article (including the charge that the Carmelite orders have lost their way) seems symptomatic of the thesis found elsewhere on the site that we have passed from a golden age of the church into a current chaotic state of affairs. I get the impression that the aforementioned small groups of hermits in the US are being claimed as a flowering of true Carmelite spirituality, in contrast to a less vigorous and pure expression of same in the parent orders of the overall family, and apparently the rot set in about 50 years ago.

Obviously I would say this is entirely untrue, and without in any way questioning the sincerity of the author, I am bemused - and as Brother David says above, kind of offended - that my way of life is being critiqued from what appears to be an uninformed position, and which nevertheless offers no evidence for its bold claims.

I don’t think this is charitable, and I don’t think it is offered in the spirit that our common baptism - or even canon law, for that matter - would require. Nevertheless, I’d offer prayers for all of the faithful who feel so disappointed in the religious of the modern church, and hope that we might come to some closer understanding of each other. And I would welcome friendly correction of any mistakes in what I’ve said above.

Oh, and to the originator of the thread, who may be rather tired of all this (sorry!) - there is a lesson here, for what its worth. One of the ongoing penances of religious life is the very public criticism that you are likely to have to endure from both within and outside the church. Religious profession is highly counter-cultural, and people are fascinated by that. Both the enthusiastic and the dismissive will be quick to tell you where you’re going wrong. 😉
 
Brother Mike,
I thought I would give you the first chance to answer this as I knew you could do a better job articulating the answer than I would but I would like to add the following.

The article makes this claim (see the underlined portion);It is unknown when the Carmelite order was founded, as some believe it can be traced back to the prophet Elijah in the Old Covanent, while others believe it was a contemporary to the Franciscans in the 12th century.
This is untrue. The Orders, both O.Carm. and O.C.D., celebrated the 800th anniversary of our rule in 2008. Our rule was written by St Albert, Patriarch of Jerusalem. He became the patriarch in 1205 and served as such until his death in 1215, so our founding is between those dates. The two orders agreed to celebrate the 800th anniversary 2008 which places the founding in 1208, but that is just a guess and I am unsure how they chose that other than it seems like a good time between the dates it could have happened.
 
I can’t speak for the comments made about other religious families, but the section on the Carmelites on this page is innacurate in many respects, and bordering on libellous (!) in several others.

I don’t think this is a good resource, unfortunately.
Actually, the way that this page describes the Franciscan reforms is inaccurate. The reforms came out of the desire of the friars to remain faithful to the Rule of St. Francis. The author does not fully understand the reforms and the different experssions of the Franciscan charism.

It’s not a very reliable description of the Franciscan family. The author also has some favorties. He has completely failed to mention the Franciscan Third Order, which is the largest branch of the Franciscan family and its contribution to the Church. The Franciscan Third Order is made up of over one million men and owmen: married, celibate, religious and secular. It dates back to 1221, founded by Francis himself.

It also fails to mention that the Franciscans are a family, not different orders. There are three Franciscan Orders, not many, as they post here. Within the three orders, there are many branches or arms to the same family.

It’s difficult to capture the Franciscan spirit and history. But this page did not do a good job at all. Contact Franciscans for yourself and don’t use this page.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top