Different God in the New Testament?

[marymichael10]

My Grandmother used to tell me, “I think the Old Testament is just awful! Full of death!” Many people find it rather ‘brutal’, and hence say they would rather read the New Testament, or follow the New Testament (which would be right considering Jesus came to establish the New Covenant). But, I think it’s disrespectful to not acknowledge God’s saving role in human history without looking to the Old Covenant. This has become a reason for many skeptics to say that God changed, from the Old to the New; God’s fulfillment to, has some, made people question his unending love. At the very heart of this question lies a fundamental misunderstanding of what both the Old and New Testaments reveal about the nature of God. Another way of expressing this same basic thought is when people say, “The God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath while the God of the New Testament is a God of love.” The fact that the Bible is God’s progressive revelation of Himself to us through historical events and through His relationship with people throughout history might contribute to misconceptions about what God is like in the Old Testament as compared to the New Testament. However, when one reads both the Old and the New Testaments, it becomes evident that God is not different from one testament to another and that God’s wrath and His love are revealed in both testaments.

For example, throughout the Old Testament, God is declared to be a “compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,” (Exodus 34:6; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 4:31; Nehemiah 9:17; Psalm 86:5, 15; 108:4; 145:8; Joel 2:13). Yet in the New Testament, God’s loving-kindness and mercy are manifested even more fully through the fact that “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Throughout the Old Testament, we also see God dealing with Israel the same way a loving father deals with a child. When they willfully sinned against Him and began to worship idols, God would punish them. Yet, each time He would deliver them once they had repented of their idolatry. This is much the same way God deals with Christians in the New Testament. For example, Hebrews 12:6 tells us that “the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”

In a similar way, throughout the Old Testament we see God’s judgment and wrath poured out on sin. Likewise, in the New Testament we see that the wrath of God is still “being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness” (Romans 1:18). So, clearly, God is no different in the Old Testament than He is in the New Testament. God by His very nature is immutable (unchanging). While we might see one aspect of His nature revealed in certain passages of Scripture more than other aspects, God Himself does not change.

As we read and study the Bible, it becomes clear that God is the same in the Old and New Testaments. Even though the Bible is 66 individual books written on two (or possibly three) continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years by more than 40 authors, it remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. In it we see how a loving, merciful, and just God deals with sinful men in all kinds of situations. Truly, the Bible is God’s love letter to mankind. God’s love for His creation, especially for mankind, is evident all through Scripture. Throughout the Bible we see God lovingly and mercifully calling people into a special relationship with Himself, not because they deserve it, but because He is a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth. Yet we also see a holy and righteous God who is the Judge of all those who disobey His Word and refuse to worship Him, turning instead to worship gods of their own creation (Romans chapter 1).

Because of God’s righteous and holy character, all sin—past, present, and future—must be judged. Yet God in His infinite love has provided a payment for sin and a way of reconciliation so that sinful man can escape His wrath. We see this wonderful truth in verses like 1 John 4:10: “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” In the Old Testament, God provided a sacrificial system whereby atonement could be made for sin. However, this sacrificial system was only temporary and merely looked forward to the coming of Jesus Christ who would die on the cross to make a complete substitutionary atonement for sin. The Savior who was promised in the Old Testament is fully revealed in the New Testament. Only envisioned in the Old Testament, the ultimate expression of God’s love, the sending of His Son Jesus Christ, is revealed in all its glory in the New Testament. Both the Old and the New Testaments were given “to make us wise unto salvation” (2 Timothy 3:15). When we study the Testaments closely, it is evident that God “does not change like shifting shadows” (James 1:17).

Does anyone else have comments on this matter?

 

[Flame4]

I agree with you completely. A lot of people think that b/c God is loving, he will allow everyone to do whatever they want. But if we think of God like a parent, then what kind of parent is that? Does a good parent let their child play with matches, eat too much candy, and jump of the roof? That is what we do when we sin, and God tries to stop us from hurting oursleves. When we understand that God is love, and we understand what love means, then it is easier to accept that God in the old Testament is the same God in the New Testament. God is unchanging. Love is hard sometimes, but it is still love.

However I can not do justice to your post. I just have to say well done

God Bless

 

[Roy5]

If I had to believe in the Old Testament literally, I would have to look for another faith, as my God is not a cruel deity who products or demands atrocities.

Three example.

(1) The story of Noah. To begin with, we find God regretted that he had created humankind, as though He had made a mistake. So he decides to drown everybody but one family, including families, children of all ages, babies in the womb, etc. Noah builds an ark big enough to carry two of every species for 150 days (and their food, etc) as the water remains on the earth. A true story? Give me a break.

 (2) God orders Joshua to kill all the inhabitants of Jericho once the walls come tumbling down. 

 (3) God tells King Saul to slaughter every living Amalekite, including 'sucklings'. 

 Really now, how are these three atrocities (and there are others) compatible with the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, or the Biblical passages assuing us that God is love, merciful, etc.?

 They aren't compatible. The Old Testament provides some background that Christians certainly should know, but the God presented in much of the history recorded there is in conflict with the loving Father taugth us by Christ.

 

[SnakeMauler]

God isn’t Obama care. He is the author of life and therefore has the right to destroy it: besides… SodoM and Gomorrah… The guys saying… Bring them out here so we might “know” them? When you have people like that, it’s no wonder God decided to wipe a few people out. Hey, it’s not like any of them tried to repent.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Council of Florence: “First, then, the holy Roman church, founded on the words of our Lord and Saviour, firmly believes, professes and preaches one true God, almighty, immutable and eternal, Father, Son and holy Spirit… It [the Church] professes that one and the same God is the author of the old and the new Testament – that is, the law and the prophets, and the gospel – since the saints of both testaments spoke under the inspiration of the same Spirit.”

God is the author of all life, and so it is not murder, or a sin or crime, if He decides to end anyone’s life, at any age, in any circumstances.

In the OT, in order to establish firmly the Jewish Faith and the Hebrew people, so as to prepare for the Messiah who would offer salvation to all, it was necessary to have harsher penalties and more severe action, since the world was very sinful. The Judeo-Christian ethic did not prevail at that time. And the Jews were in danger of falling away from their faith to the pagan religions around them.

 

[kingal86]

If I had to believe in the Old Testament literally, I would have to look for another faith, as my God is not a cruel deity who products or demands atrocities.

Three example.

(1) The story of Noah.

(2) God orders Joshua to kill all the inhabitants of Jericho once the walls come tumbling down.
(3) God tells King Saul to slaughter every living Amalekite, including ‘sucklings’.

I’ve always suspected that when the Hebrew Scriptures were finalised during the Babylonian exile (and in tradition beforehand), many atrocities carried out in historic Israelite warfare were retrospectively justified by saying God ordered them (or Moses, e.g. the Midianite genocide).

 

[Mintaka]

The custom of ancient warfare when you totally defeated a whole people was not to kill everybody, or to kill some and let the others surrender and join your people, or to kill some and let the others go into exile.

The custom was to enslave any defeated people, permanently. (As opposed to debt slaves, which weren’t as common, had more rights, and could get out of slavery.) Conquered women (and often boys, and girls, and babies) were also raped and became sex slaves as well.

When God commanded that the Israelites kill all the Amalekites, He was demanding that they not take over an entire people as their slaves. He was forbidding them to transform their society into one where slaves were common, permanent, fair game for sex, and of another people and religion from them. He was prohibiting the formation of an untermensch.

Also, as the Romans found out when they conquered a lot of people and enslaved them, once you have a lot of slaves, your economy and society is totally deformed to keep the slaves down and yet feed them all. That’s what made a little city republic turn into an all-conquering empire – they had to get more land and stuff to support their slave economy. The Romans were enslaved to their slaves. All of the Spartans’ disgusting customs also were developed to keep their helots enslaved. And so on.

I admit that killing babies isn’t nice, but it’s better than enslaving babies to breed yourself a slave race.

 

[Flame4]

I admit that killing babies isn’t nice, but it’s better than enslaving babies to breed yourself a slave race.

I would NOT go with this argument, It is not better to die than suffer. Human life is sacred no matter what. But God can choose to take life for any reason and be justified. Look at it this way. If you create a painting, don’t you have the right to destroy it if you wanted to. Would that be wrong? Well God has teh same right.

 

[marymichael10]

I agree with you completely. A lot of people think that b/c God is loving, he will allow everyone to do whatever they want. But if we think of God like a parent, then what kind of parent is that? Does a good parent let their child play with matches, eat too much candy, and jump of the roof? That is what we do when we sin, and God tries to stop us from hurting oursleves. When we understand that God is love, and we understand what love means, then it is easier to accept that God in the old Testament is the same God in the New Testament. God is unchanging. Love is hard sometimes, but it is still love.

However I can not do justice to your post. I just have to say well done

God Bless

Great analogy! Perfect way of seeing it for what it is
Well thank you very much haha. God bless.

Roy5:

Really now, how are these three atrocities (and there are others) compatible with the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, or the Biblical passages assuing us that God is love, merciful, etc.?

They aren’t compatible. The Old Testament provides some background that Christians certainly should know, but the God presented in much of the history recorded there is in conflict with the loving Father taugth us by Christ.

This is in conflict with the teachings found in the Old testament, the Church’s doctrine, and additionally, what Christ taught. God has been present in all human history, and Old Testament scripture is also inspired, or why would Jesus Himself quote it so often? All of the books of the Bible have been approved by the Church, and are therefore worthy of belief. Granted, there are some things that we just can’t know are true. Such as the Creation of the universe in 7 days (true or not, God made it essential to all of the Old and New Covenant followers; and, objectively, what is 7 days to God?), Adam and Eve story, and Noah’s Ark as you brought to light. But I think whether you believe in creation or not, evolution or individual design, it doesn’t dimish the teaching found there; that sometime along the way, some of our oldest parents failed God and themselves. And scientists have found evidence for a catastrophic flood roughly 4000 years ago, and was also recorded by the people of Mesopotamia. As far as God said He had regretted creating mankind, we must also mark that God said that no one was just anymore, and “God hates the wicked, and loves the just.” Nontheless, despite Him saying this, He didn’t end humankind, but preserved it through Noah, which eventually led to the foundation of the Covenant with Abraham; the beginning of faith.
Many people have problems with verses like, “The Lord is angry with all nations; His wrath is upon all their armies. He will totally destroy them, He will give them over to slaughter, the mountains will be soaked with their blood.” But these verses must be understood in the context, as has been pointed out, that God as the author of life, has the right to take it away. And, “whatever the Father does the Son does as well”, and “just as the Father raises the dead and gives life to whom He wishes, so also the Son has the possession of life in Himself” (John 5: 19-21). And read this: “It will be good for the servant whose master finds him as faithful when He returns. I tell you the truth, He will put him in charge of all His possessions. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and eat and drink with the drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect Him and at an hour he will not be aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 24:46-51) And: “Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you blessed of my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world…Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and His angels’…Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matthew 25:34-46). So it can clearly be understood that the God of Wrath and of Love is the same God of Jesus Christ, and indeed is He. And the God of Wrath of the Old testament is the Father of Love in the new…but both in each, because God never changes.
On a final note, it should be said that God speaks of punishment, and sent the flood to destroy humanity…but it needs to be REunderstood that the death of the body is not the death of the soul; the soul we possess will live forever. And so if God caused them to die, even if some were innocent, it a) would’ve been within His right as Creator, and b) would’ve been within God’s judgement to decide their eternal fate through His providence. People might think this God to be ‘cruel’, but He only rejects those who continually reject Him.

 

[Roy5]

Let me repeat: if I had to believe that God commanded the wholesale murder of whole tribes, including innocent babies, many still in the womb, I would have to adopt a different faith or become an angry atheist. How could God contradict his own Ten Commandments and Sermon on the Mount?

Blaming God has always been a favorite tactic of evildoers. “The Lord made me do it…” I once had a lengthy conversation with an aged woman who was convinced that the holocaust was the work of God as punishment for rejecting Jesus. Such nonsense.

Sorry, but I can’t leave behind either my brain or my moral sense when I read the Bible. There is so much nationalistic nonsense in the OT. Solomon, the wisest man that ever lived? What was it: 1000 wives and 600 concubines? What kind of godly example is that? David might have been even worse. He took a poor man’s wife, Bathsheba, then sent Uriah to be slaughtered at the front. Such a great model???! Does might make right?

We find fault with the Quran and with good reason. Much in the Old Testament carries the same message. As Jesus said (for example): ye have heard it said, love your neighbor but hate your enemy, but I say unto you, love your enemy, etc...  Now, tell me, was he agreeing with the Old Testament law or not. Re-read such verses as found in Ex. 21, Lev. 20, and Deut. 22-23. Then tell me if all those 'laws' are in accord with Jesus. Remember how he told those who were about to stone the woman - he that is without sin, let him cast the first stone.

 Christians try hard to make inhumane Old Testament acts and laws compatible with the words of Christ, but in Matthew 5 (and elsewhere) Jesus clearly keeps saying: "ye have heard it said, but I say unto you...."

 I find the outrageous atrocities in the Old Testament revolting. What about the triumphant cry: "Saul has killed his thousands, but David has killed his tens of thousands..."? Something to be proud of? Not in my Christian faith!

All for now. May the God of love, father of Christ, bless the whole world.

 

[Flame4]

Great analogy! Perfect way of seeing it for what it is
Well thank you very much haha. God bless.

Thank you!! :tiphat:

Roy, I didn’t take time to address your whole post however,

Blaming God has always been a favorite tactic of evildoers. “The Lord made me do it…” I once had a lengthy conversation with an aged woman who was convinced that the holocaust was the work of God as punishment for rejecting Jesus. Such nonsense.

Your right that is crazy:sad_yes:. But those who do evil are never justified by God. Those who are evildoers are punished.

He took a poor man’s wife, Bathsheba, then sent Uriah to be slaughtered at the front. Such a great model???! Does might make right?

David was punished by God for this, and he regreted it. No it is not right, thats the whole point.

I find the outrageous atrocities in the Old Testament revolting. What about the triumphant cry: “Saul has killed his thousands, but David has killed his tens of thousands…”? Something to be proud of? Not in my Christian faith!

I can see why you might be upset over this one, however I always assumed this was to show how powerful God is. Not that killing is good, but that God can destroy your enemies. I don’t know, its hard to explain, but some how (I’m sure its the Holy Spirit), you do learn to understand it and see sense in it. Sorry, its not much help, but maybe you should pray that God will guide you to understanding, whatever that may be.

God Bless

 

[marymichael10]

Let me repeat: if I had to believe that God commanded the wholesale murder of whole tribes, including innocent babies, many still in the womb, I would have to adopt a different faith or become an angry atheist. How could God contradict his own Ten Commandments and Sermon on the Mount?

I don’t think it’s as simple as becoming an athiest because God had the world flooded. God perhaps foresaw the way these children would grow old and become sinners. Not to say that in their place within time, they were innocent. Nontheless, I repeat, God is the author of Life, and the decider of our destiny. He has every right to do anything…even to destroy the universe tomorrow. And, again, He didn’t eliminate humanity, but preserved it through Noah (according to the story).
And the Ten Commandments and Beatitudes weren’t meant for God. They were meant for us. God has no rules.

Blaming God has always been a favorite tactic of evildoers. “The Lord made me do it…” I once had a lengthy conversation with an aged woman who was convinced that the holocaust was the work of God as punishment for rejecting Jesus. Such nonsense.

Wow. Correct. That is flat out nonsense. If anything, the Holocaust was a demonstration of evil present and powerful in the world.

We find fault with the Quran and with good reason. Much in the Old Testament carries the same message. As Jesus said (for example): ye have heard it said, love your neighbor but hate your enemy, but I say unto you, love your enemy, etc...  Now, tell me, was he agreeing with the Old Testament law or not. Re-read such verses as found in Ex. 21, Lev. 20, and Deut. 22-23. Then tell me if all those 'laws' are in accord with Jesus. Remember how he told those who were about to stone the woman - he that is without sin, let him cast the first stone.

Christians try hard to make inhumane Old Testament acts and laws compatible with the words of Christ, but in Matthew 5 (and elsewhere) Jesus clearly keeps saying: “ye have heard it said, but I say unto you…”

Jesus came to do, exactly as you said, perfect the Old Law with the New.
Jeremiah 31: 31-34: The days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show Myself their master, says the Lord. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel afther those days; I will place My law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No longer will they have need to teach their friends and kinsmen how to know the Lord. All, from least to greatest, shall know Me, says the Lord, for I will forgive their evildoing, and remember their sin no more."
Matthew 5:17: "Do no think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill."

Christ is the new covenant, perfect and eternal. The old covenant was flawed, and needed perfection; but Christ is the new undefiled covenant. In Christ, the covenant is perfect and permanent. Christ, as the master of the new covenant, and God’s own Son, has the authority to change it. Thus He can say, ‘but I say unto you.’

May the God of love, father of Christ, bless the whole world.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I always thought, in looking at some of the “problematic” passages in what we call the Old Testament mentioned above in some posts, that they were part of the founding, divinely-inspired, description of the founding of Israel, and not to be taken literally in all aspects.

However, having read some Jewish commentaries on the passages in question in the Old Testament, I believe it worth listening to Jewish exegesis on what the verses mean. It goes to giving the Jewish viewpoint I believe on these verses.

From Reform Judaism I get:
Wars of Extermination in Biblical Times
jewishanswers.org/index.php?p=32

War and Conquest in the Torah
jewishanswers.org/index.php?p=31

From Conservative Judaism’s (I believe) MyJewishLearning website, I get these essays:
Genocide in the Torah
myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/War_and_Peace/Combat_and_Conflict/Types_of_War/Genocide.shtml

Remembering Amalek
myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Purim/In_the_Community/Special_Sabbaths/Remembering_Amalek.shtml

The Evil Within
myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Purim/Themes_and_Theology/Violence_and_Retribution/Evil_Within.shtml

Holy War
myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/War_and_Peace/Combat_and_Conflict/Holy_War.shtml

From what appears to be an Orthodox Jewish site, I get:
askmoses.com/en/article/119,2474530/Parashat-Balak.html

askmoses.com/en/article/662,2112222/The-Objective-is-War.html

Guess, worth the read, to see how members of the Jewish faith interpret the verses we have touched upon before one castigates.

 

[Roy5]

KyivAndrew

Thanks for the interesting resources. I checked them out.

However, none of them - in my view - justified the extermination of whole tribes and cities. Even as a child, I recall being repulsed by stories from the Old Testament, beginning with Jehovah's deliberate drowning of all of humankind but Noah and his family. If he made us so vulnerable to serious sin, maybe we had a original flaw - hir work and not ours? Kierkegaard, I believe it was, pointed out that if Adam and Eve didn't know the difference between good and evil (hadn't eaten that 'apple' yet), how could they be blamed when they sinned? Something to ponder.  

 As for slaughtering whole tribes and the people of entire cities, I continue to find it contradictory to the message of Christ and certainly in conflict with the Ten Commandments. I am always amazed and a bit disgusted when Christian and Jewish scholars expend enormous effort to justify such atrocities.

 Killers usually find 'justification' for their crimes. Didn't Hitler accuse Poles of murdering Germans to justify his attack on Poland? He justified his invasion of the USSR because the Nazis were going to save Western Civilization from godless Bolshevism. He put Jews to death in part because he argued that they had caused World War II. Italy was going to civilize Ethiopia when it occupied that nation. Japan was simply driving out European colonists and gaining 'Asia for Asians' when it began WWII in the Pacific. The Islamic terrorists have targeted the USA because we are 'waging a war against Muslims'. Of course, we invaded Iraq because of its weapons of mass destruction> And we went into Vietnam to save Asia from Communism via the domino impact. Always an excuse.

 There was no justification for those Old Testament atrocities, and I become a bit impatient with those who defend them. They were not the will of God but the work of greedy and bloodthirsty men. They are recited with pride, as though such evil were good, turning morality on its head. Such a defamation of our God of justice, mercy and love!

  Unfortunately, human nature doesn't seem to change. We never seem to learn. Wars keep on coming, century after century. Those aren't God's fault, even though too many Americans and others think that our military exploits somehow reflect the will of the Almighty. All have sinned - including nations - and fallen short. Christians need to stand with the gospel and not become apologists for power politics that cause so much injustice and suffering in the world. I admire the Quakers, the Amish and those others who take their Christianity seriously, even when I may disagree with them on other matters. 

  No wonder more and more people seem disillusioned with religion when it continues to preach a God of peace, love and joy on the one hand, but also claims that it was God who ordered wholesale murder on the other.

  God bless people of every creed, color and country, and may we learn to live in peace and mutual respect.

 

[Gloria1]

There is just one God in the Bible and God does not change. The God of “wrath” in the Old Testament is the Same God full of Love in the New Testament. For example, throughout the Old Testament, God is declared to be a “compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,” (Exodus 34:6; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 4:31; Nehemiah 9:17; Psalm 86:5, 15; 108:4; 145:8; Joel 2:13). In the New Testament, we see the extent of God’s Love when He sends His only begotten son to come and die just to save mankind. Don’t be confused! There is Just one God in the Bible.

 

[Roy5]

Hi Gloria

True. The OT speaks of God as compassionate, slow to anger, merciful, etc. Then how can that same God drown the world's entire population (minus one family)? How can he command Joshua to slaughter the inhabitants of Jericho, Ai and other cities? How can he order Saul to murder every remaining Amalekite, of every age and gender? At best this is collective punishment which today would be viewed as a war crime - and rightly so.

 Why do decent Christians insist upon making evil into good and murder into God's benevolent will, thereby flouting the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount? Why don't they see the contradiction? It's as obvious as the nose on my face - and yours, too!

 People are deserting Christianity by the millions in the developed world. People who are compassionate, use their brains, and want a just God can't subscribe to the notion that God was responsible for such immoral atrocities.

 

[marymichael10]

KyivAndrew
As for slaughtering whole tribes and the people of entire cities, I continue to find it contradictory to the message of Christ and certainly in conflict with the Ten Commandments. I am always amazed and a bit disgusted when Christian and Jewish scholars expend enormous effort to justify such atrocities.

 There was no justification for those Old Testament atrocities, and I become a bit impatient with those who defend them. They were not the will of God but the work of greedy and bloodthirsty men. They are recited with pride, as though such evil were good, turning morality on its head. Such a defamation of our God of justice, mercy and love!

Weird. I attended a class at Church today concerning the violence of both Old Testament times, and of sad times in the history of the Church, like the Inquisition. But we understand that we really build what we believe on what is accepted in the culture at the time we live in. Therefore, the point was made, that we can’t really judge what happened thousands of years ago with today’s standards, because we really just don’t know such circumstances that were in effect during that era.

Aside from that, I certainly don’t defend the actions of anyone who kills: even in the name of God. I simply stress the importance of the Old Testament as relates to the New. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill.” I again say, that if God chose to end the earthly lives of people during the flood, or through certain figures in the Old Testament, such as Elijah who killed all the prophets of Baal, it was within His right. You said it yourself, God is a God of justice and mercy…sometimes His justice must outweigh His mercy according to the situation.

Again, I’d like to reiterate, the death of the body is not the death of the soul. And consider, why is satan still alive? He, among all angels and spirits, is the most evil. Yet he lives, as is evident and Jesus tells us. God really doesn’t end anyones lives…because our lives don’t end. And it would’ve been within His right to end any earthly life, because He is the judge of eternal destiny. And, again, the Commandments were not meant for God, but for us. God has no rules to live by.

But I do not accept the murder of people, just or unjust. I don’t want you to think that because it’s in the OT, I accept that murder is ok. I just wish to say that without the OT, there is no NT! To deny God’s presence in the OT would be to deny His saving role in all human history, and His promise of a Messiah at all. Really, whatever imperfections lied in the OT, as pertains to our sinful human nature and the unjust practices performed, were well set straight by Jesus. Perhaps it’s not for us to quarrel over OT practices and texts, because we live in and by the NT. Jesus’ teachings are what we live by now, and what the prophets and Holy Men of the Old Covenant would have lived by (for they waited eagerly for the Messiah), and such is what we should focus on. Any imperfections in the Old Covenant were perfected in the New Covenant, by and through Jesus Christ. And that is what truly matters.

  Unfortunately, human nature doesn't seem to change. We never seem to learn. Wars keep on coming, century after century.

So true. We cause what ails us. But it can be understood that wars are punishments on mankind for injustice, as Revelation tells us.

  God bless people of every creed, color and country, and may we learn to live in peace and mutual respect.

 

[Roy5]

MaryMichael10

Much of what you say I agree with. However, the culture may change but God doesn’t. So, if God is merciful and just, among other things, he certainly would not order atrocties. I don’t dismiss the Old Testament, of course, but so many Christians defend these atrocities. If God did it, we cannot question God. I don’t question God. I question the writers of Hebrew history who claim that the Lord insisted upon these outrageous acts.

The law included "thou shalt not kill" and the prophets in general urged compassion and justice. So when Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, it seems to me that he was repudiating such tales of godly vengeance and cruelty. And I suspect he was taking issue with much in Ex. 21. Lev. 20, Deut. 22-23. etc.

 Too often Christians - Catholics and Protestants - treat the Old Testament as infallible. If it's 'in the Word' it's got to be true. I would have to abandon Christianity if that were required. There simply is too much hatred, prejudice, and murder in the OT.

 

[marymichael10]

MaryMichael10

Much of what you say I agree with. However, the culture may change but God doesn’t. So, if God is merciful and just, among other things, he certainly would not order atrocties. I don’t dismiss the Old Testament, of course, but so many Christians defend these atrocities. If God did it, we cannot question God. I don’t question God. I question the writers of Hebrew history who claim that the Lord insisted upon these outrageous acts.

The law included "thou shalt not kill" and the prophets in general urged compassion and justice. So when Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, it seems to me that he was repudiating such tales of godly vengeance and cruelty. And I suspect he was taking issue with much in Ex. 21. Lev. 20, Deut. 22-23. etc.

 Too often Christians - Catholics and Protestants - treat the Old Testament as infallible. If it's 'in the Word' it's got to be true. I would have to abandon Christianity if that were required. There simply is too much hatred, prejudice, and murder in the OT.

You make some good points. The Old Testament was not infallible. If it was, Jesus wouldn’t have a need to come and ‘make all things new.’ Nontheless, it is divinely inspired, according to the teachings of the early Church. But, as Paul reiterated many times, Christ Jesus came to fulfill the Old Covenant promises, and at the same time, make the New Covenant in His blood, and hence, ‘Circumcision or uncircumcision counts for nothing to Jesus. Faith in His name counts for everything.’ So in a sense, He did come to perfect the Old Covenant; so we while we acknowledge that Jesus alone is the ‘Way, the Truth, and the Life,’ we can also acknowledge that God keeps His promises: from Genesis to Malachi, all things point to the coming of Christ.
So, to me, it’s not as simple as leaving Christianity because of the hatred and prejudice in the OT. It must be understood that whatever imperfections in the writing and sequences in the OT, whether divinely inspired or not, whether scientifically valid or not, whether in accord with the teaching of Jesus or not, are important in the full revelation of Jesus, but made obsolete in His blood, which makes the New Eternal Covenant with the Father.
But I agree with you that sometimes writers make God the cause of human ideals and imperfections. Is the Old Testament worth unbelief then? No. Without the 500 or so prophecies of Christ in so many books of the OT, why would we have legitimate reason to believe Him at all? Why would we not just think He was a man with new, outstanding philosophies? This to me proves that the books are divinely inspired; they point to Jesus, and Jesus fulfills.

 

[CWBetts]

If I had to believe in the Old Testament literally, I would have to look for another faith, as my God is not a cruel deity who products or demands atrocities.

Three example.

(1) The story of Noah. To begin with, we find God regretted that he had created humankind, as though He had made a mistake. So he decides to drown everybody but one family, including families, children of all ages, babies in the womb, etc. Noah builds an ark big enough to carry two of every species for 150 days (and their food, etc) as the water remains on the earth. A true story? Give me a break.

 (2) God orders Joshua to kill all the inhabitants of Jericho once the walls come tumbling down. 

 (3) God tells King Saul to slaughter every living Amalekite, including 'sucklings'. 

 Really now, how are these three atrocities (and there are others) compatible with the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, or the Biblical passages assuing us that God is love, merciful, etc.?

 They aren't compatible. The Old Testament provides some background that Christians certainly should know, but the God presented in much of the history recorded there is in conflict with the loving Father taugth us by Christ.

This shows a complete lack of understanding of God’s mercy. In the Old Testament the punishments were limited to temporal death. It doesn’t matter if the inners were Philistines, Egyptians, Amorites, Babylonians or Israelites. There is no mention of th eternal torment of Hell in the Old Testament. The New Testament punishments are eternal, not temporal. Do I presume to no the fate of th likes of Korah, or the people of Jericho, or those who perished in the flood? Of course not. Some of them may have been saved, coming to repentance as they died. We just do not know. DO not be so quick to condemn them to Hell, for that is not our place. I would say that the punishments in the New Testament, being eternal, are much more severe.