Different kinds of Catholic?

[malphono]

Is Lyons still extant?

AFAIK, yes. At least I’ve heard that it seems to have experienced a small revival of sorts (as the local Usus Antiquior) in the wake of Summorum Pontificum.

 

[Pakesh]

There is no Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. The Latin Church AKA Roman Catholic Church in America uses the Roman Rite, Ordinary Form and Extraordinary Form both of with make use of the language Latin to greater or lesser degrees. There also are religious communities such as the Domicans who celebrate their Dominican Rite from time to time in America.

D’oh! That was a total goof on my part I’m so used to seeing the terms used interchangeably. Of course I did mean Roman Rite which is usually what I say. Good catch 5Loaves:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pakesh

 

[Diakonia]

Also extant within the Latin Church is the Bragan Rite, which is served by indult in a few churches in Portugal. I don’t believe that there is approval for public use of the Lyonnaise Rite.

 

[Diakonia]

Several subrites exist; …

You won’t find the term subrite used anywhere that I know of.

The Copts and Ethiopians are the major subrites of the Alexandrian;

Actually, they are Traditions within the Alexandrian Rite.

Curiously, the Eritrean Catholics constitute a Rescension (next level down) within the Ethiopian (Ge’ez) Tradition, while their Eritrean Orthodox counterparts are of the Coptic Tradition (as a result of ecclesio-political happenings in that part of the world).

The Antiochene Rite is the Maronites and Syrians (both Syrian Catholic and Syrian Orthodox), and one of the indian churches

That would be the Syro-Malankara Church. A lot of folks still denominate the Maronites as having/being a distinct Rite (altho Rome doesn’t any longer list it in the Oriental Canons as such). When/If the Maronites divest themselves of more of their latinizations, they might then be truly considered of the Antiochene Rite - as it is, it’s arguable that they serve a hybridized Antiochene-Latin form that is best described as its own Rite.

The Chaldean Rite is the Chaldeans and the other indian church, as well as the non-catholic Assyrian Church of the East and Ancient Church of the East.

The Syro-Malabar Church is the one to which you’re referring.

The Byzantines come in 3 subrites, and cover 14 of the Churches Sui Iuris in the Catholic Communion: Syro-Byzantine (Antiochian Orthodox and Melkite Catholic), Greco-Byzantine (Greeks, Turks, and several other more southern churches), and Slavo-byzantine (Including Russians, Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Hungarians…)

There you go with subrites, again. There are 2 Traditions - Byzantine-Greek and Byzantine-Slav or Slavonic.

The Melkites and Antiochians serve according to the Greco-Arabic Rescension of the Byzantine-Greek Tradition.

The Greeks and Albanians are of the Greek Rescension within that same Tradition.

There is no Turkish Catholic or Orthodox Church. The Byzantine Catholic jurisdiction in Turkey belongs to the Byzantine Greek Catholic Church; the ‘Turkish Orthodox Church’ - which I think is now extinct - was a non-canonical entity, in communion with no one.

The pre-nikonian Russian Old Ritualists are their own recension, present in both Catholic and Russian Orthodox; the Old Believers have some who use it, and others who use another recension.

Old Ritualists and Old Believers are essentially synonyms, except that in recent years some of the priested Churches have made a point of asking to be referred to only as Old Believers, because they want to make the point that their existence is predicated on more than differences in rubrics.

But, as far as your statement that there are different Rescensions in use among their Churches, by whichever name they’re called, that isn’t the case. It can be argued either that theirs constitutes a Usage within the Great Russian Rescension (as opposed to the Ruthenian or Little Russian Rescension) or that it is a distinct third Rescension within the Byzantine-Slavonic Tradition - they would likely prefer the latter.

Regardless, there is only a single (either) Rescension or Usage among them (whether they be one of the priested Churches, the Catholic Old Ritualists, the Edinovertsi - those under the Patriarchate of Moscow, or those who have come under ROCOR).

Some argument is surfacing now that the Ruthenians in the US may have developed into a recension all their own with the recent changes…

As to our Church, if anything, it would be a Usage within the Ruthenian Rescension.

I checked out the thread on this subject that the Moderator pointed out earlier. Although I might argue with a couple of points in it (and the list of hierarchs is out-of-date), it seems to cover the topic pretty thoroughly - which makes you wonder why we’re even out here re-inventing the wheel, so to speak.

 

[CopticChristian]

I know that, but what I meant is couldn’t the Catholic Church in America be considered something like a rite within the Latin rite of the Catholic Church? Or maybe I’m just wierd

The Catholic Church in America is The Catholic Church as part of the Western Rite. It is not like the Orthodox Churches that are Geographic, like Greek, Russian, etc. The Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church are cultural to an extent and may be considered geographic.

It is not like for instance Presbyterian USA.

 

[FrancisB]

The word for “subrite” is “usage.” For instance, what is generally referred to as the Sarum Rite (one of the liturgical forms from mediaeval England) is more correctly the Sarum Usage of the Roman Rite. There are actually a number of these mediaeval usages that were lost along the way, as well as some other full-fledged Western Rites that were lost.

In the East there is some degree more variation, but I’m not sure how these things are “counted” so to speak. The liturgies of St. James, St. Basil, and St. John Chrysostom are all distinctly different, although in many ways similar, and all used by the same churches. Do these constitute a single rite with variant usages or are these more properly to be understood as different forms of the same rite?

 

[Vico]

People are using different definitions for rite and tradition, but that is normal. CCEO uses these:

CCEO Canon 28

1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith ismanifested in each Church sui iuris.
2. The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are those which arise from the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.

 

[Diakonia]

The word for “subrite” is “usage.” For instance, what is generally referred to as the Sarum Rite (one of the liturgical forms from mediaeval England) is more correctly the Sarum Usage of the Roman Rite. There are actually a number of these mediaeval usages that were lost along the way, as well as some other full-fledged Western Rites that were lost.

I’d generally agree with Usage as applied to the Latin Church, as it has never really used the terms Tradition or Rescension.

In the East there is some degree more variation, but I’m not sure how these things are “counted” so to speak. The liturgies of St. James, St. Basil, and St. John Chrysostom are all distinctly different, although in many ways similar, and all used by the same churches. Do these constitute a single rite with variant usages or are these more properly to be understood as different forms of the same rite?

In the East, Traditions, Rescensions, and - more recently - Usage, follow from Rite. Historically, Rescension was used as a descriptive appended to Little Russian or Ruthenian. However, as variants have occurred in Traditions other than the Byzantive-Slav/Slavonic, it has employed more to others.

Liturgies are not Rites, but they are, generally, distinct to a Rite. We of the Churches that serve according to the Byzantine or Constantinoplian Rite (Eastern Catholic and Orthodox) do so using each of the three Liturgies that you name.

The Liturgy of St Basil is prescribed to be served ten or twelve times a year. The Liturgy of St James is served only by a few of our Churches and, typically, only on the feast day of Saint James. (Historically, it was also served on the first Sunday after Christmas, but I believe that is presently only true in churches in Jerusalem)… We also serve the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts (or Liturgy of St Gregory the Dialogist) on Wednesdays and Fridays of Great Lent and the first three days of Holy Week.

The Oriental Catholic and Orthodox Churches, which serve according to Rites other than the Byzantine, chiefly utilize liturgies attributed to St Basil (multiple Rites), St Mark (Alexandrian Rite), St Gregory the Illuminator (Armenian Rite), or St James (multiple Rites also). The Liturgies of St Basil and St James have the same origin as those used by those of the Byzantine Rite, but differ in varying degrees both from the Byzantine use and among the various Oriental Churches.

The Ancient Church of the East, the Assyrian Church, the Chaldean Syrian Church of the East (the Assyrian Church in India), the Chaldean Catholic Church, and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church serve the Liturgy of Saints Addai and Mari.